Denon v. Yamaha

[ssjadway]

Audioholics has endorsed both the Denon AVR-3805 and the Yamaha RX-V 2500. Clever readers have suggested reading between the lines to 'interpret' which product is more enthusiastically supported.

Will the Audioholics guys Gene and Clint provide a comparision that is more specific - a 'shootout' between these models.

The general word in the audio community is that Yamaha has a 'bright' sound, whereas Denon has a more 'smooth' if not refined sound. I have owned a Yamaha RX-V1 and loved it (although I can understand why some would consider its extended top end and detail to be bright).

Do the Denons however, shave off some high frequencies to achieve their smoothness? Do they compromise resolution to avoid sounding 'bright'? And can the Yamaha's alleged brightness be tamed by room treatment and EQ?

(And are the above 'leading questions' of the type that would be snuffed out by objections in a court?)

Any comments, Audioholics?

 

[Yamahaluver]

Comparisons like these are futile, each have their own attributes as well a shortcomings if they can be called that, both reflect the individual companies philosophies and perceptions of how music should sound, the point is which one appeals to your ears.

 

[brontobyte.1024]

Audioholics has endorsed both the Denon AVR-3805 and the Yamaha RX-V 2500. Clever readers have suggested reading between the lines to 'interpret' which product is more enthusiastically supported.

Will the Audioholics guys Gene and Clint provide a comparision that is more specific - a 'shootout' between these models.

The general word in the audio community is that Yamaha has a 'bright' sound, whereas Denon has a more 'smooth' if not refined sound. I have owned a Yamaha RX-V1 and loved it (although I can understand why some would consider its extended top end and detail to be bright).

Do the Denons however, shave off some high frequencies to achieve their smoothness? Do they compromise resolution to avoid sounding 'bright'? And can the Yamaha's alleged brightness be tamed by room treatment and EQ?

(And are the above 'leading questions' of the type that would be snuffed out by objections in a court?)

Any comments, Audioholics?

it will be fun knowing abt both of them.
I am waiting till this thread gets filled up with loads of info.

.

 

[ssjadway]

Comparisons like these are futile, each have their own attributes as well a shortcomings if they can be called that, both reflect the individual companies philosophies and perceptions of how music should sound, the point is which one appeals to your ears.

Agreed that individual taste is a personal matter, and therefore everyone's choice is valid for its own reasons.

But surely that is why these types of 'shootout' comparisons are essential - to delineate the differences in the 'attributes and shortcomings' and also the companies 'philosophies and perceptions of how music should sound', so that prospective buyers know what to expect and make more informed choices. I am also one who loved a former Yamaha flagship, but am troubled or at least intrigued by why the audio community has a subtle bias in favor of Denon. For example, the Yamaha RX-V1 suffered a steady erosion in its market value, whereas the Denon 5803 held its value right to the bitter end, suffering virtually no discounting. What was so special about it that it merited that? Did it simply benefit from uninformed biases or were there rational reasons for its superior market value?

These are questions surely of interest to forum followers and equipment buyers. And why should prospective buyers not be entitled to explicit descriptions of the 'house sound' of major makes - their strengths and flaws - why should they not be entitled to explicit reviewer comparisons of the comparative differences between the various philosophies and perceptions of the various big brands - why Denon, Yamaha, and Sony, for example, sound different, and seem to aim for different 'sounds"?

I think such detailed shootouts are invaluable - the UK audio press for instance, thrives on them.

It may however, create risks, for small magazines, or fledgling web-sites to openly express their views, and risk the wrath of particular companies. Heck, even major magazines like Stereophile and Absolute Sound, have to worry about such things, and thus disguise their comments in diplomatic language that must therefore be 'interpreted' by readers. Eg. - "the ..... did not disappoint, did not sound harsh..." etc. may be interpreted to imply that it did demonstrate such tendencies, without the review explicitly saying so.

Surely, the consumer loses in this game.

 

[MDS]

I think the consumer loses when reviewers do provide the kind of subjective evaluations you are seeking. They are meaningless. The terms 'bright' and 'warm' as attributed to certain brands are urban legends. Nearly all brands have relatively flat response (+/-3dB) from 20Hz to 100KHz.

The room and speakers cause the perception of brightness or muddy sound as well as driving the receiver beyond its capabilities with demanding material. Also those perceptions will vary from person to person and with different recordings.

 

[Doug917]

Denon Vs. Yamaha

Hello,

I have had Yamaha equipment in the past, but it has been 4 or 5 years ago. I currently have a Denon AVR-5800. Yamaha receivers seem to have more detail in the higher frequency range which leads me to perceive better localization and an extension to the range of sound. This to me is normally good, but sometimes can lead to brightness. The Denon I currently own I can only describe as smooth. It definately does not have the highs the Yamahas do. If I was listening to music only, I would choose the Denon hands down. However, with movies I do miss some of the dynamics the yamaha provides. The Denon still sounds great with movies, but I would have to say I prefer Yamaha when it comes to movies. Yamaha also has the best DSP's without a doubt and some of them seem to pull you into the action more. I have Klipsch speakers across the front and Def Tech bipolars for surround and surround back. I think both manufacturers make excellent products. Since I watch flicks more than I listen to music, I am currently saving my dough and persuading the wife so I can purchase the RX-Z9. I was waiting for years for Yamaha to provide THX certification and 7.1 with presence insted of 6.1 with presence and the time is now here.

Doug

 

[PENG]

I owned a Sony STR-DA4ES for over a year. I read about Sony and Yamaha being bright, HK & Denon "warm". I listened to many HK models and found them sounding very similar (i.e. just as bright or as warm) to my Sony.

I traded the Sony in for a 3805 and found no obvious improvement in terms of a "warmer/smooth" sound. In both cases, I also tried listening to them through a power amp, still the difference is there but subtle. I suspect if you listen to HK, Yamaha, Denon and even Sony in the same acoustic environment using the same source material and speakers, they would not sound too different. I do find speakers within the same price range sound quite different, even in terms of this "warm" and "bright" thing.

By the way, I chose Denon over Yamaha mainly because I was influenced by some bench test results that show the 3805 has more power output than the comparable RX-V2400, the AVR630 and a Pioneer model. I have no concern about the Yamaha being bright. To me the Denon is just as bright.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Hello,

Yamaha receivers seem to have more detail in the higher frequency range which leads me to perceive better localization and an extension to the range of sound.
Doug

I'd be interested to know how this is possible, what paramater in the amp would account for this? Frequecny response? Slew rate? Maybe the speakers?

 

[mtrycrafts]

Will the Audioholics guys Gene and Clint provide a comparision that is more specific - a 'shootout' between these models.

If they can do it under level matched DBT protocol, then it will have some meaning, otherwiase, as anonymous stated, zero. But, comparing other than sonic aspects is not a problem.

The general word in the audio community

Does that have any meaning? Any validity? Credibility?

is that Yamaha has a 'bright' sound, whereas Denon has a more 'smooth' if not refined sound.

Then this would show up in the specs.


I have owned a Yamaha RX-V1 and loved it (although I can understand why some would consider its extended top end and detail to be bright).

Why is that? Is the frequency response reflecting this? Or, just a biased outlook on this component?

Do the Denons however, shave off some high frequencies to achieve their smoothness?

This would sho up in the frequency response too. I just don't see this is the case.



Do they compromise resolution to avoid sounding 'bright'?

Hmm, how is resolution measured? Which spec reflects this?


And can the Yamaha's alleged brightness be tamed by room treatment and EQ?

Ah, alleged is the key, isn't it

(And are the above 'leading questions' of the type that would be snuffed out by objections in a court?)



No, but a bias controlled listening comparison would shed light on this. Will it be enough to bury the urban legends? Of course not. Will it change your mind permanently?

 

[ssjadway]

Denon vs. Yamaha

So why did the Denon 5803 hold its value while the Yamaha RX-V1 declined to a small fraction of its value - if audio community view are meaningless?

 

[plhart]

If I'm not mistaken the 5803 is upgradeable but the Yammie is not. Remember how many "new" technologies have come out in the last 5 years? Like Pro Logic IIx. Also little known is that the algorythms for DD and DTS are continually improved and you can get this improvement at the same time you're upgrading, for instance IIx.

The other weird head trip I've seen come into play is that people figure the unit with the most expensive initial price has somehow gotta be better.

 

[mtrycrafts]

So why did the Denon 5803 hold its value while the Yamaha RX-V1 declined to a small fraction of its value - if audio community view are meaningless?

Ah, you are assigning a community view by price value? Maybe that is driven by demand which has a different meaning than the community view of sound differences, such as brightness, you think?

 

[BMXTRIX]

I think I would definitely like to see some sort of shootout comparison that merely points out the differences in sound quality - since both sound so similar, it really isn't the deciding factor for me.

The DETAILS matter though: Do similarly priced Yamahas or Denons put out more or less power than the competition (or identical?) How many inputs and outputs do both have, and of what type? For multi-zone use, how functional is it? Why do reviews stop at the first zone? How well do ALL the features of the receiver work, and how do they compare to each other? How fast was setup from one receiver to the other? How good are things like ergonomics of two receivers when compared to each other? Do discrete IR codes exist for all functions for Pronto and WAF? Do discrete codes exist for control of multiple zones? Do manufacturers include serial ports and what are they usable for from the manufacturer? Upgradability and how useful is it really? Warranties?

I don't think the sound of a Denon or a Yamaha would sway me when they really do sound very similar. But, all the other factors do sway me and are hard to find out about - and very hard to compare. I want to know what is missing from any receiver that I may buy and would love to be able to compare it directly to other receivers I may be interested in - especially at the same price.

 

[mtrycrafts]

The DETAILS matter though: Do similarly priced Yamahas or Denons put out more or less power than the competition (or identical?) How many inputs and outputs do both have, and of what type? For multi-zone use, how functional is it? Why do reviews stop at the first zone? How well do ALL the features of the receiver work, and how do they compare to each other? How fast was setup from one receiver to the other? How good are things like ergonomics of two receivers when compared to each other? Do discrete IR codes exist for all functions for Pronto and WAF? Do discrete codes exist for control of multiple zones? Do manufacturers include serial ports and what are they usable for from the manufacturer? Upgradability and how useful is it really? Warranties?

I don't think the sound of a Denon or a Yamaha would sway me when they really do sound very similar. But, all the other factors do sway me and are hard to find out about - and very hard to compare. I want to know what is missing from any receiver that I may buy and would love to be able to compare it directly to other receivers I may be interested in - especially at the same price.

YES These are all valid points and today, they are the ones we should look at, not sonics

 

[grunnsat]

Audioholics has endorsed both the Denon AVR-3805 and the Yamaha RX-V 2500. Clever readers have suggested reading between the lines to 'interpret' which product is more enthusiastically supported.

I'm looking for a receiver in the same range too, as well as for new speakers. Over the past days I listened to some Tannoy speakers, and I found them great in midrange and high tones but lacking in bass.

I went to another shop, and told them about this experience. Well, that had all to do with 'musclepower". The Pioneer they used to drive the Tannoys did not have enough 'musclepower". A Denon, that was the way to go.

Carefully I asked them about the Yamaha as well. Rubish, no "musclepower" either. At that time I did not take the guy seriously anymore, but believe me, this is a high end shop with very expensive systems in stock!

Now we all know that the power supply of an amplifier is one of the most important aspects for a good clean sound, specially in the power demanding bass tones. When you check the maximum power consumption of the Denon, you will see it is rated at 390W (European model). The Yamaha is rated at 500W, or > 25% more. Assuming both supplies have the same efficiency, that means the Yamaha has a more capable power supply.

I have read statements that the Denon sounds 'warmer' and 'richer' . That makes me suspicious. Warm and rich quite often should be translated as lacking in detail and high tones. I'm looking for clean deep well defined bass tones, that is something different.

 

[mtrycrafts]

[=grunnsat]I'm looking for a receiver in the same range too, as well as for new speakers. Over the past days I listened to some Tannoy speakers, and I found them great in midrange and high tones but lacking in bass.

If it lacked bass, then most likely no amount of power will improve this shortcoming.
You may want to consider adding a sub to your setup?


I went to another shop, and told them about this experience. Well, that had all to do with 'musclepower". The Pioneer they used to drive the Tannoys did not have enough 'musclepower". A Denon, that was the way to go.

Audio voodoo is what they are marketing. Be careful.

Carefully I asked them about the Yamaha as well. Rubish, no "musclepower" either. At that time I did not take the guy seriously anymore, but believe me, this is a high end shop with very expensive systems in stock!

Just because they have expensive stuff in their stock doesn't mean they know what is going on in audio.

Now we all know that the power supply of an amplifier is one of the most important aspects for a good clean sound, specially in the power demanding bass tones. When you check the maximum power consumption of the Denon, you will see it is rated at 390W (European model). The Yamaha is rated at 500W, or > 25% more. Assuming both supplies have the same efficiency, that means the Yamaha has a more capable power supply.

Maybe the Yam just is a more powerful amp by a little bit? Just be careful, a 25% increase in power is but only a 1 dB spl increse, hardly noticable with music, in th emid bands and not at all in th elow end.

I have read statements that the Denon sounds 'warmer' and 'richer' . That makes me suspicious. Warm and rich quite often should be translated as lacking in detail and high tones. I'm looking for clean deep well defined bass tones, that is something different.


All these sound qualities of amps are ridiculous, unless it is commensurately reflected in the frequency response of that amp. Most are ruler flat today where it counts.

 

[PENG]

Now we all know that the power supply of an amplifier is one of the most important aspects for a good clean sound, specially in the power demanding bass tones. When you check the maximum power consumption of the Denon, you will see it is rated at 390W (European model). The Yamaha is rated at 500W, or > 25% more. Assuming both supplies have the same efficiency, that means the Yamaha has a more capable power supply.

We have to be careful in trying to interpret the power consumption numbers. Manufacturers tend to quote the highest number they can get away with in terms of output, but in terms of power consumption, they may go the opposite way, perhaps to show that they products are energy efficient. I wonder if there is any standard in this at all.

Based on lab measurements done in both NA and UK reviews, I would guess the Denon actually has a larger power supply, because it delivers more power into both 2 channels and 5 channels, and into both 8 ohms and 4 ohms. It draws more current (7.1A in the NA models) from the 120V outlet, and weighs a few pounds more, though you can't always go by that neither. Both receivers look good, sound good and are getting excellent reviews. Its a real tough choice between the two. In the end, the Yamaha is probably a better buy if only because of its lower street price.