Denon AVR vs. Dedicated Amp?

U

ultrafast

Audiophyte
Hi all,

This is my first post here, though I've read a lot of great information on this forum and the site in general.

I am in the process of upgrading my home theater, primarily by moving it to a new room, but also changing the sound setup a bit. Previously I had a Denon AVR-2808CI running a 5.1 system of two Polk R Ti A5s in the front, a C Si A4 center, two R Ti A1s in the back and a HSU VTF-1 Mk2 sub. I really liked this setup for movies, which is its primary function, but somehow it was always lacking just a little bit.

Now, I was just lucky enough to come into a pair of Quad 22Ls, which my researches show to be really top notch speakers. I plan to use these as the new front L/R speakers. My budget is a tad strained these days, but I would like to make the most of these speakers and this brings me to my question. Will my Denon 2808CI be able to drive these speakers to their potential, or will I be missing out on a lot? The fact that they have lower impedance (6ohm, rather than 8) makes me think a dedicated amp might be best. In this case, I would take the pre-amp output from the Denon AVR and run it through a good amp for just the front speakers. I really don't know much about stand alone amplifiers and how much I would need to spend to exceed the quality of the integrated amps in the Denon. My last consideration is if my money would be better spent on a new center channel speaker or some sound treatment for the room rather than this amp.

I would greatly appreciate any input on this subject, or any other things I should keep in mind with this system.

Thanks!
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
I think it boils down to what kind of volumes you want to obtain. Ya know, I don't think of those Quads as something that people buy for "reference level" HT purposes, if you catch my drift.

Have you ever tried using an SPL meter during normal listening? How many feet away do you sit from them?

That being said, what's nice about an outboard amp is that they last a long time, and do not get outdated on a near-yearly basis the way processors/receivers do.

Some people already had nice outboard amps by the time the new movie codecs came out, and all they had to do was buy a $300 receiver to act as pre to enjoy them.

Anyways, one of the things I remember about the 22Ls are how short they are. If for instance you sat very close to them, and they were not on some risers or angled up, the tweeters could be positioned too low.

Cheers, congrats, and enjoy.
 
M

MatthewB.

Audioholic General
The Quads are rated at 89db (1W/1M) so your Denon should be plenty efficient to drive them. Although it only has a woofer that is 6.5" (same as the midrange) i would cross them over at 60-80Hz and let your subwoofer handle the lower bass (relieving the reciever from having to drive the hard load that bass requires. Actually being 6ohm speakers is fine for Denons. I drive a pair of Strata Minis which are four way speakers and they are 6ohms with my older Denon 4802R.

If you feel you are getting distortion in any way then an outboard amp will help drive the mians and relieve power from the reciever so that it has more to drive the center and surrounds. I would recommend a 200wpc stereo amp (no sense in buying a lesser amp because your current reciever can handle that.) Stereo amps are pretty inexpensive and can be found on ebay, amazon, pawnshops everywhere for under 200.00 But overall what you have should be fine as long as you set the speakers to small and crossover at 60-80Hz.
 
T

tom67

Full Audioholic
Yeah, I think you have to double the wattage to get about a 10% increase in volume.....Beyond that, why not try what you have before spending the money...nothing to lose...
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Yeah, I think you have to double the wattage to get about a 10% increase in volume.....Beyond that, why not try what you have before spending the money...nothing to lose...
I agree with that. If it is rough on the loud passages, buy an amp.

Those speakers have a sealed upper woofer, and a mass loaded vented lower woofer, to give a really smooth and extended response. Like all good speakers do not set them to small. Set them to large. Use you sub with subtlety. Set the crossover to 60 Hz and gently bring it in to slightly reinforce the bass. You will spoil these speakers if you do not allow these speakers to speak as the designer intended. If the sub is set too loud this will spoil them also.

You will notice a huge improvement over the Polks.
 
U

ultrafast

Audiophyte
Guess that answered my question

Thanks! Looks like I'll give it a run with the integrated amplifier and see how it sounds before making a rash decision.
 
M

MatthewB.

Audioholic General
TLS Guy I think you got your last post wrong, when you told him not to set his speakers to small and set them to large and then use the crossover at 60hz. If he sets his speakers to Large his speakers will get a full power signal (which his 6.5" woofer and midrange won't be able to handle. That and he won't be bale to set his recievers crossover for his mains if set to Large. he can set them if he sets them to small and crosses over at 60Hz and lets his sub handle the lower bass, he will get far better audio quality.
 
U

ultrafast

Audiophyte
MatthewB. - I agree about setting the speaker size to small and then playing around with the crossover for best results. It does not make too much sense to send ALL the low frequency signals to the front speakers, however good they may be, as they will not reach the same lows as my sub, at least not without considerable loss of quality.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
TLS Guy I think you got your last post wrong, when you told him not to set his speakers to small and set them to large and then use the crossover at 60hz. If he sets his speakers to Large his speakers will get a full power signal (which his 6.5" woofer and midrange won't be able to handle. That and he won't be bale to set his recievers crossover for his mains if set to Large. he can set them if he sets them to small and crosses over at 60Hz and lets his sub handle the lower bass, he will get far better audio quality.
I know quite a few 6.5 inch drivers that will handle significant power in the bass. Those speakers can handle the power quote easily. I have drivers that size in my possession that have 2.5 inch voice coils that can handle tons of power without distress.

If the OP crosses those speakers over early he will negate a lot of the benefits of that design.

I realize really good drivers are far and few between, and in general you are right. However best results are achieved with speakers having superior LF performance and using the sub very judiciously. Those speakers will in fact sound excellent with no sub.

I was in a dealers show room recently listening to some first class speakers, with bass drivers around eight inches. Addition of a sub really mucked them up.

It has become clear to me that subs have allowed designers to introduce speakers with inadequate bass performance. This is understandable as it allows speakers to be introduced at lower price points. However nothing can substitute for a truly integrated full range speaker. Trying to integrate subs will always be second best, but a good second best.

However the bottom line is that if a speaker has good spl and does not sound bass shy and has good bass quality, leave it alone. Don't muck it up with an unnecessary crossover, just gently reinforce it.
 
P

pearsall001

Full Audioholic
Here's a pretty good article that I find to be dead on...http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/34579/128214.html

A lot of guys think they have full range speakers, when in reality very few are (insert very expensive & very $$$$$) to achieve a true full range speaker. With the addition & proper integration of a great sub (or two) you will experience a new found musicality that a single pair of speakers just can't produce.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Here's a pretty good article that I find to be dead on...http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/34579/128214.html

A lot of guys think they have full range speakers, when in reality very few are (insert very expensive & very $$$$$) to achieve a true full range speaker. With the addition & proper integration of a great sub (or two) you will experience a new found musicality that a single pair of speakers just can't produce.
The issue is not bass extension, but roll off.

Now I agree there is a conflict here between HT/pop and classical.

Lets take the OPs Quads. The upper woofer has a second order roll off, the lower fourth order. This provides a bass extension and curve the designer intended.

Now lets put a typical receiver crossover in the mix set at 60 Hz say. The top driver now rolls off fourth order, the lower driver will start rolling off second order and convert to sixth order. I highly doubt this is what the designer had in mind. The sub on the other hand will roll off second order at 60 Hz. This is far from an ideal crossover splice. Allowing the sub to gently assist the lower drivers is likely to result in much more accurate bass reproduction. In fact in the area of crossover in the OPs situation the crossover will be symmetrical second order. The high pass crossover is acoustic, avoiding the problems of electrical crossover on the high pass end of the crossover.

Let us just consider for a moment what would happen if you had the concept of top extenders, and had receivers that could crossover to a driver a 4 KHz, to a powered HF unit of any manufacture at that frequency. Results would be awful.

The only reason you get away with this at all with subs, is because it is a region were the human ear is not as critical.

Ideally if this sub/satellite system is to become the norm, then mains should all be sealed or TL speakers with F3s between 60 and 80 Hz. Then with second order roll of to the mains roll off would be fourth order composite. Then you would have the low pass filter to the sub roll off fourth order. Then you would have a nice transition.

My argument that the high pass filter to the mains at least should be where possible acoustic, is not mine alone, but B & W favor this for their 800 series.

I just set up a sub to B & W 800Ds last week, and this approach gave the best listening result and the smoothest in room response.

Because of the highly aberrant signals sent via the LFE channel in Hollywood's whiz bang movies, you have the issue of physical damage to the drivers to consider, if not protected with crossover. However there are drivers up to the task.

If it is accurate music reproduction that the OP is interested in from his new Quads, then he should certainly give a listen to the system running the Quads full range and gentle use of the sub starting an octave above F3, which for the OPs set up would be 60 Hz.

Speaking from a speaker designers perspective, I would not intend or advise a speaker of mine having a crossover modifying the low end balance and LF taper of the speaker.

The OPs speakers are very much aimed at the classical market. They are definitely speakers that are at their best reproducing Mozart rather than Two Inch Nails.
 
R

rcpilot_971

Audioholic
Hi all,

This is my first post here, though I've read a lot of great information on this forum and the site in general.

I am in the process of upgrading my home theater, primarily by moving it to a new room, but also changing the sound setup a bit. Previously I had a Denon AVR-2808CI running a 5.1 system of two Polk R Ti A5s in the front, a C Si A4 center, two R Ti A1s in the back and a HSU VTF-1 Mk2 sub. I really liked this setup for movies, which is its primary function, but somehow it was always lacking just a little bit.

Now, I was just lucky enough to come into a pair of Quad 22Ls, which my researches show to be really top notch speakers. I plan to use these as the new front L/R speakers. My budget is a tad strained these days, but I would like to make the most of these speakers and this brings me to my question. Will my Denon 2808CI be able to drive these speakers to their potential, or will I be missing out on a lot? The fact that they have lower impedance (6ohm, rather than 8) makes me think a dedicated amp might be best. In this case, I would take the pre-amp output from the Denon AVR and run it through a good amp for just the front speakers. I really don't know much about stand alone amplifiers and how much I would need to spend to exceed the quality of the integrated amps in the Denon. My last consideration is if my money would be better spent on a new center channel speaker or some sound treatment for the room rather than this amp.

I would greatly appreciate any input on this subject, or any other things I should keep in mind with this system.

Thanks!
I just added a Emotiva xpa-5 to my Denon 3808ci and it made a difference lot more bass this amp is 200wpc I have Infinity Kappa 8.1 that are 6ohm and 89db and this amp brought them to life
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Well they might as well be 9" nails! I'm wallowing in Thais from the Met right now, with Renae Flemming singing the title role, and I'm loving it. French romantic opera at its best.

I bet it would sound gorgeous on the OP's Quad 22Ls!
 
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