Denon AVR 4400 H with Emotiva xpa gen 3

PTdoug

PTdoug

Enthusiast
To add to the idea of adding a more powerful sub I can tell you that the community on here told me multiple times my setup was great but my weak point was my subs. I added numerous high end power amps and changed out speakers but for cinema and gaming I never got that “holy crap that sounds good” moment until I just spent the money and got myself some higher end subwoofers and than calibrated them with a MiniDSP 2x4HD. I can’t stress enough the impact quality subwoofers have on a setup
I like your setup must sound great. Avitar, when they destroy the tree of life must sound GREAT
 
PTdoug

PTdoug

Enthusiast
Basically all your doing by adding a power amp to drive your left and right front speakers is to lighten the load on the AVR's amp and power supply. End of story
what mono bloc
Basically all your doing by adding a power amp to drive your left and right front speakers is to lighten the load on the AVR's amp and power supply. End of story
Did your mono blocs only add loudness to your system? my AR90s sung with Caver mono bloc amps, but you are absolutely right the Emotive gen 3 3 will lighten the loud for my Denon x4700H
 
mono-bloc

mono-bloc

Audioholic
Did your mono blocs only add loudness to your system?
No. As you will know it increases the headroom of the system, and you get far more detail.

The problem with AVR's is all the junk the thing has to power, leaving very little left to power the amplification. So anything that can lighten the load is a benefit.
The main problem with all AVR's is the fact that anything useful has been removed, leaving only the HDMI connections. Production costs for your average AVR is anywhere between 20 and 50 dollars, So you really can't expect a first class power supply.
 
PTdoug

PTdoug

Enthusiast
Thank you that is what I was trying to say. AVRs and vinyl don’t get along. The power supply even if it has the power doesn’t have clean power. To get the power i need for my AR90s I have to go with an external amp. I have a Grado Gold 3 and a Schiit phono amp hopefully with the Emotiva Gen 3 3 I can have better sound quality with my records and my movie’s. If I had my choice i would prefer a Caver pre amp with two Carver mono power amps for my vinyl but knowing my wife, thats not going to happen
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Oh good gawd what nonsense about "mono-blocs" (largely more to do with limited brain function?) let alone special/magic amps and speakers that somehow work better simply being hooked up to a more powerful amp Vinyl is a largely crap medium and the avr may or may not have a sufficient RIAA eq/input stage, but hard to know without specifics. This is the problem with old crap knowledge from the likes of Pacific Stereo sales meetings....
 
mono-bloc

mono-bloc

Audioholic
Thank you that is what I was trying to say.
In short put in a descent power supply and you double the cost . AVR's are built on a limited budget Even though there is a huge turnover. I've witnessed one factory in Malaysia. Where we buy our components in the hundreds , they buy in the millions. And it's minimum efficiency, of the power supply, There's little to no power to spare.

Unfortunately Carver Audio is unavailable here in Oz. I'm unable to find anywhere that stock even the basic lines. I'm told that there was a retailer in Perth Western Australia. Strangely enough it's cheaper to fly to Hong Kong, then it is to fly to Perth, from Sydney

As for Emotiva All service and sales where withdrawn some time ago, So it's no longer available here. They announced that all service and repair work was available , if you freighted back to there US factory, and paid the freight costs both ways.
 
PTdoug

PTdoug

Enthusiast
Oh good gawd what nonsense about "mono-blocs" (largely more to do with limited brain function?) let alone special/magic amps and speakers that somehow work better simply being hooked up to a more powerful amp Vinyl is a largely crap medium and the avr may or may not have a sufficient RIAA eq/input stage, but hard to know without specifics. This is the problem with old crap knowledge from the likes of Pacific Stereo sales meetings....
This is the reason I left Face book. You had to make it personal. Can't you express your opinion in a way that I can respect . As soon as you got nasty any communication went out the window. There must be another web site you can go to bully .Playing with Audio sound is called a hobby and here is where Hoobiest come to express their opinion in a non theatening way. All you demonstrated to me is that you are an angry person. Relax, take a breath, and talk to me. What do you have and and why do you like it?
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Thank you that is what I was trying to say. AVRs and vinyl don’t get along. The power supply even if it has the power doesn’t have clean power. To get the power i need for my AR90s I have to go with an external amp. I have a Grado Gold 3 and a Schiit phono amp hopefully with the Emotiva Gen 3 3 I can have better sound quality with my records and my movie’s. If I had my choice i would prefer a Caver pre amp with two Carver mono power amps for my vinyl but knowing my wife, thats not going to happen
True to point about the power supplies typically used in AVRs, but please do keep in mind some basic facts and factors. It's the internet, you bound to hear lots of hyperbole..

For entry level AVRs:

- True enough that entry level AVRs tend to have power supplies and output devices (more so the power supplies) that are too small for even 5.1, but it is still highly dependently on other factors.
- For example, even entry level AVRs (e.g. I have a Denon AVR-1911 that I have given it away, but still working) could drive a 5.1 system in a 13X16 room based on Polk bookshelf and satellite speakers with very good results.
- Power requirements are mostly determined by one's target/desired spl (sound pressure level), listening distance and speaker sensitivity.
- Each time you double the power output, you only get 3 dB more SPL. To perceived twice as loud, it is generally agreed that you need to increase SPL by 6 to 10 dB, dB is the unit in log scale, 10 dB increase in power output is 10 times. So a 200 W into 8 ohm that a power amp can give you versus 120 W into 8 ohm that you will get with a mid range AVR (Denon, Marantz, Yamaha etc) will basically let you crank he volume up by a few clicks.
- Power output is not the only thing that matters, so are distortions, noise, freq. response, among other things, but may AVRs performed better than many power amps based on some very detailed test bench measurements.

For mid range, and flag ship level AVRs (e.g. Yamaha RX-A3000 series, Denon AVR-4000 series, Marantz SR7000, SR8000 series):

- Typically will give you 120 to 140 W into 8 ohms, >200 W or even >300 W into 4 ohms (based on bench test results) for two chanel driven, but for 5 to 7 channel driven simultaneously, you can expect about 70 % give or take, that will give you 5, or 7 X 100W.

- Good power amps, including the mediocre Emotiva amps, typically can sustain higher levels of output for prolong period, while AVRs cannot, because they don't have adequate heatsinks for such use. However, for real world use, such as movies and most music genres, AVRs can do just as good unless you listen to highly compressed music at loud levels.

- It does not matter how much extra power reserve you have on hand, it makes no audible difference it you don't even tap into that reserve. For example, even if you are watching an action movie at levels as loud as you will hear in a movie cinema, if the AVR, or power amp, is outputting only 100 W peak during the maximum peak SPL in the movie, the AVR (say an Yamaha RX-A3080) can do it at very low distortions, low enough for it to be at below the threshold of audibility, so in that case, external amps or not will mostly not make any difference, at least no obvious difference anyway.
 
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P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
This is the reason I left Face book. You had to make it personal. Can't you express your opinion in a way that I can respect . As soon as you got nasty any communication went out the window. There must be another web site you can go to bully .Playing with Audio sound is called a hobby and here is where Hoobiest come to express their opinion in a non theatening way. All you demonstrated to me is that you are an angry person. Relax, take a breath, and talk to me. What do you have and and why do you like it?
You just haven't been here long enough I guess, to know HD's posting style. He is one of the most resourceful and helpful poster I have even seen on such audio forums.:) I
 
PTdoug

PTdoug

Enthusiast
Sorry. misunderstood the style. Didn't seem helpful but I'll get with the program
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
This is the reason I left Face book. You had to make it personal. Can't you express your opinion in a way that I can respect . As soon as you got nasty any communication went out the window. There must be another web site you can go to bully .Playing with Audio sound is called a hobby and here is where Hoobiest come to express their opinion in a non theatening way. All you demonstrated to me is that you are an angry person. Relax, take a breath, and talk to me. What do you have and and why do you like it?
If you only want to hear goofy non-scientific audio opinions, that's what most of the other groups and fora do well (particularly on FB, where groups are often run by those selling the nonsense). I do get angry about nonsense in audio....sometimes it boils over, sorry. What do you mean what do I have? You going to come up with that nonsense about I need more resolving gear to hear the cables or the very minor differences in modern ss amps? No one's stopping you from expressing your opinion, and I didn't threaten you....your beliefs perhaps.
 
PTdoug

PTdoug

Enthusiast
If you only want to hear goofy non-scientific audio opinions, that's what most of the other groups and fora do well (particularly on FB, where groups are often run by those selling the nonsense). I do get angry about nonsense in audio....sometimes it boils over, sorry. What do you mean what do I have? You going to come up with that nonsense about I need more resolving gear to hear the cables or the very minor differences in modern ss amps? No one's stopping you from expressing your opinion, and I didn't threaten you....your beliefs perhaps.
Let me start by saying that I worked for Pacific Stereo before they where bought out by CBS. The company was started by students from Berkly. What data do you have that out of all those stores throughout the nation none of them had a lick of sense.There where salesman that didn't. I saw someone push an expense turntable on someone then sold him a cheep cartridge. There's your idiot. Some before CBS new what they where talking about. I never said anything about other peoples equipment, just my own. I checked my previous post. You thing that a person that has a stereo preamp and power amp like Carver isn't hearing better sound from their equipment then what could be heard from an AVR running 7 speakers? I would never put down other peoples equipment. I don't know the room, budget, or musical taste of the person I'm talking to.. I was told that the way you post is your style. As long as I know that I don't have a problem with it . Do you also speak about the poor choose people make in speakers, which I would think to a point is subjective. I have a Denon x4700H, SVS SB2000 pro, AR90s rebuilt,(notice my id pic) and the rest are Klips.My turntable is a direct drive manual turntable, Grado Gold 3 cartridge and a Shiit phone preamp. I know that vinyl is a poor medium, as you have said, but that's the fun. Trying to figure out how to get the best sound you can from it. I showed you mine. Show me yours. I will not attack you or your opinion. Just looking for common ground
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Let me start by saying that I worked for Pacific Stereo before they where bought out by CBS. The company was started by students from Berkly. What data do you have that out of all those stores throughout the nation none of them had a lick of sense.There where salesman that didn't. I saw someone push an expense turntable on someone then sold him a cheep cartridge. There's your idiot. Some before CBS new what they where talking about. I never said anything about other peoples equipment, just my own. I checked my previous post. You thing that a person that has a stereo preamp and power amp like Carver isn't hearing better sound from their equipment then what could be heard from an AVR running 7 speakers? I would never put down other peoples equipment. I don't know the room, budget, or musical taste of the person I'm talking to.. I was told that the way you post is your style. As long as I know that I don't have a problem with it . Do you also speak about the poor choose people make in speakers, which I would think to a point is subjective. I have a Denon x4700H, SVS SB2000 pro, AR90s rebuilt,(notice my id pic) and the rest are Klips.My turntable is a direct drive manual turntable, Grado Gold 3 cartridge and a Shiit phone preamp. I know that vinyl is a poor medium, as you have said, but that's the fun. Trying to figure out how to get the best sound you can from it. I showed you mine. Show me yours. I will not attack you or your opinion. Just looking for common ground
People rarely mentioned AR speakers nowadays, I used to like AR3a, AR6 and the AR7 I had when in university. How would compare the AR90 to those?

By the way, the AVR-X4700H is very similar to my AVR-X4400H so I would expect it to sound the same (to me) in direct/pure direct mode using analog inputs. I also heard no difference vs my Marantz AV8801, but yet many forum talks would have me believe there are audible difference, even night and day kind of difference in terms of sound signature (warm, bright, in between..), sound stage/imaging, impacts, blablabla etc.. So I fully expect many people would hear different things from their Carver preamp/power amp vs their AVR, but there could be many reasons for them to hear such different, one (just one) being they might have been listening with their eyes too.;) Another highly probable reason would obviously be that the AVR might have been driven pass it's clipping point.

Since you mentioned Carver, you must know he might actually be one who put more value on objective measurements than subjective one that tend to conclude more expensive gear "sounds better.."

You most likely are familiar with the following:
Carver Challenge | bobcarvercorp.com
 
PTdoug

PTdoug

Enthusiast
I like the blend I get from my AR90 and my Klips when watching movies. I also check to see if I'm in stereo not surround when I am listening to music They sound(to me) sounds full. My speakers are an inquired taste. They are not as bright as some, but I like that.People are picking them up everywhere. One person rescued a pair from the dump and rebuilt them. You either like them or you don't. Old capacitors need to be replaced .Lovintheha will have a field day with that statement. No I don't think that speeker wires, cables and the like, within reason make much difference but with Lovintheha you never know what he may jump on. Thank you PENG for your comments.
 
PTdoug

PTdoug

Enthusiast
People rarely mentioned AR speakers nowadays, I used to like AR3a, AR6 and the AR7 I had when in university. How would compare the AR90 to those?

By the way, the AVR-X4700H is very similar to my AVR-X4400H so I would expect it to sound the same (to me) in direct/pure direct mode using analog inputs. I also heard no difference vs my Marantz AV8801, but yet many forum talks would have me believe there are audible difference, even night and day kind of difference in terms of sound signature (warm, bright, in between..), sound stage/imaging, impacts, blablabla etc.. So I fully expect many people would hear different things from their Carver preamp/power amp vs their AVR, but there could be many reasons for them to hear such different, one (just one) being they might have been listening with their eyes too.;) Another highly probable reason would obviously be that the AVR might have been driven pass it's clipping point.

Since you mentioned Carver, you must know he might actually be one who put more value on objective measurements than subjective one that tend to conclude more expensive gear "sounds better.."

You most likely are familiar with the following:
Carver Challenge | bobcarvercorp.com
I really didn't talk bout the AR90s They are "4 way" speakers 4 olm bi amp capable They have a tweeter mid range low midrange and 2 10 " woofers in each cabinet. They are a power hungry pig.I love them anyway. See why I feel my Denon isn't enough to handle my 7.1 system even though I'm using efficient Klips for the rest of my sound system. Maybe I will never get the same sound as I had in my pot smoking 60s but. The fun of this hobby is trying
 

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