Denon 5803 or Yamaha Z9

happy540i · Dec 9, 2003

I planning to upgrade my DSP-A1 to either a 5803 or Z9. Currently my yamaha is connected to M&k speakers 2510p and 5310. Please help me make a decision. Right now the 5803 sounds good to me but I still haven't heard the Z9.
Thanks.

petermwilson · Dec 12, 2003

Hi,
I have an upgraded Denon 5800  and it might just be the last one that I own. I use 3 pairs of surrounds for film but my main 5 are Totem Model 1's including the sig center for music.

The other surrounds are turned off when listening to music.

 This brings me to a feature in the Denon that is liable to keep me away from the hirez combi players with or without digital connections.  
The Denon has 2 sets of analog in's.  It has enabled me to pickup a couple of mltidisc discontinued players to cover each format at a cost that leaves me enough money to buy lots of music.

Since I listen to music not my equipment and definitely not my cables, I'm happy with the direction I took.

BTW one other feature DolbyHeadphone comes in handy quite a bit at our place.

I have never owned a Yamaha and the only one that I've heard had very poor speakers connected to it so I won't comment except to say that there seem to be alot of happy Yamaha owners out there also.

Also, I'm not sure it should be an either or decision necessarily.  When your in the Flagship dept of recievers there's some excellent product out there.

Happy hunting,
Peter m.

Yamahaluver · Dec 12, 2003

Both are very good units but the Yamaha has superior amp section as well as better DSP modes and variable bass crossover with the YPAO.

You do need proper speakers for the Yamaha so you should seriously audition other models of Yamaha with your current speakers to see if you like the sonic signature of Yamaha.

gene · Dec 12, 2003

Yamahaluver;

While I agree Yamaha is king of DSP, I disagree with your declarative statement that Yamaha has a superior amp section.  The Denon AVR-5803 has a more robust amp section than the RX-Z1.  In fact it has the most robust amp section I ever tested in a receiver.  The RX-Z9 is another story, and looks to have excellent potential.  I would say its amp section is at least the 5803's equal.  However, you can rest assured that Denon will soon have an answer to the Z9.  All I can say is things will be quite interesting next year!

In any event, both of these receivers as well as many other Flagships these days are offering considerably great performance and in many cases outperfoming separates at the same price class.

petermwilson · Dec 12, 2003

Hi,
The two most comprehensive reviews I've seen on the 5803 is the one that Gene did for this site and the one at "Secrets"

I would also take Gene's advice and await the unveiling of Denon's new Flagship in Feb 04.

I"m not putting down highend separates but the line between them and Flagship recievers can now only be drawn by a few golden eared people.

One last thing.  Please marry whatever you get with speakers that can show it off.

Peter m.

Yamahaluver · Dec 12, 2003

gene : Yamahaluver;

While I agree Yamaha is king of DSP, I disagree with your declarative statement that Yamaha has a superior amp section. The Denon AVR-5803 has a more robust amp section than the RX-Z1. In fact it has the most robust amp section I ever tested in a receiver. The RX-Z9 is another story, and looks to have excellent potential. I would say its amp section is at least the 5803's equal. However, you can rest assured that Denon will soon have an answer to the Z9. All I can say is things will be quite interesting next year!

In any event, both of these receivers as well as many other Flagships these days are offering considerably great performance and in many cases outperfoming separates at the same price class.

Gene,

I meant the Z-9 not the Z-1, the Z- 1 cant be compared here as it is rated at 130W.

However I rate the DSP-A1's sound superior to my Z-1 in terms of DAC and this would really surprise many, also the fact that torroidal power is used in the Z-9 doesnt make me happy one bit, I will wait for the Z-9 but things dont look too bright for it in my case. I might be going back to a brand new DSP-A1 which I have seen at a local Yamaha dealer here, this one is in champainge with wooden side pannels.

gene · Dec 13, 2003

Yamahaluver;

Your statements surprise me.  The RX-Z1 and Z9 use higher grade DAC's then the DSP-A1.  Also, both units have more power, PLII, improved DSP modes, remotes, etc.  

While I never compared the DSP-A1 directly to the Z1 or Z9, I can tell you the Z1 was a step up from my Separates processor that replaced my DSP-A1.  However, I felt analog performance of my old dedicated processor still beat out the Z1 marginally.

Yamahaluver · Dec 13, 2003

Gene,

I can well understand your perplexity but in my opinion unlike the PC world more processing doesnt really translante to better sound. My assesment of the Z- vs. DSP-A1 is purely based on musical ability, not cinema where the Z-1 is defintely a superior unit. I prefer the sound of the DSP A1 in music and consider it better, surprisingly there were two other guys browsing in the same store who also agreed in a blid test but I know that is not sceintific.

Audio is a strange and subjective world and I feel day by day Yamaha is becoming pressurised into becoming a me too manufacturer wheras in the past it stood its ground and offered its buyers and fans something different.

gene · Dec 13, 2003

Yamahaluver;

I will say, IMO the warmest and most musical sounding amp I ever heard Yamaha put out was the DSP-A3090.  That integrated amp graced my system for almost 6 months, but I ultimately let it go because it lacked too many features (IE. DTS, 6CH outs, etc).  However, the 80wpc X 5 was a true all channels driven speced amp and sounded much heftier than many of today's cheaper, lighter and allegedly more powerful receivers.  

When I went from the DSP-A3090 to DSP-A1, I felt the sonics were a bit more forward and dynamic, but not as smooth.  However, I did enjoy watching movies more on the latter.

Yamahaluver · Dec 13, 2003

I fully concur with you Gene, the DSP-A3090 had an extremely good amp section almost closer to their MX power amps, why they had to fiddle with the amp section on the A1 and later models is beyond my conprehension, strange are the ways of Yamaha.

I hope the Z-9 will come soon as my patience level with Yamaha in general is running out.

happy540i · Dec 15, 2003

Thank you to all that replied. When I bought the Yamaha years ago I wasn't set at buying the Yamaha I was set at buying the Denon 5600 but after I've heard both of them side by side I decided to get the Yamaha. I guess I have to do it again. I haven't heard anything about the new Denon coming out in Feb. Is there a website I can check out?
Thanks again guys.

petermwilson · Dec 15, 2003

Hi Happy,
If you Google Denon 5803, you will find an ezboard site that covers many flagship recievers and is named as such.

It would be a good place to start although Jeff Talmadge who is known in our HT cirlces as Denon Jeff (product mgr.)seems to be the best resource for this info, he's playing it pretty close to the vest.

Denon's 5803 has been touted by many as the one box answer to a HighEnd separates option.

My sense is that the product about to be introduced will take that premise again a step further.

I read almost all the HT and AUDIO magazines and read the reviews of products that on paper, (an most likely in reality) are everything they say they are. My goal however was to have a system with enough power and flexibility to address how I listen to music and watch films.  My 5800/03 is almost capable of doing everything

At 170w perch it handles pretty much what I need and I would guess from a power perspective most peoples needs.
My Totem Model 1 speaker grouping are 4ohm and 87 sensitivity and work well with the Denon even though it's not officially rated for 4ohm speakers, (it depends on the speakers).

I do however lust after the Totem Mani 2's.  If I were to take that leap speaker wise, I would also have to add an extra 2 or three channel amp as even the 170w perch all channels driven would not be enough.

If I were to do that I guess I would somewhat be entering the world of separates unless Denon's next offerring has soo much power that it can handel any speaker.  I have a feeling that it will and if I decided to trade up.

Of course the most cost effective thing for me would be to add an amp but if I were making the quantum leap to flagship recievers for the first time  (if Denon is coming out with a 200 or 250 watt unit) I wouldn't hesitate to go that direction.

Happy, I know I'm rambling here but my advice would be to wait and see.

Peter m.
ps: remember it has 2 sets of analogs

3db · Dec 19, 2003

Based on what I've read on other sites, the after sales service of Denon is rather dismal.  Add to it the fact that Denon's parent company is losing money may make futur Denon purchases a risky affair.  Because these two systems are so close in terms of audio perfromance ( I donb't mean bells a nd whistles)  I would opt on th esure thing and go for Denon

3db · Dec 19, 2003

3db : Based on what I've read on other sites, the after sales service of Denon is rather dismal.  Add to it the fact that Denon's parent company is losing money may make futur Denon purchases a risky affair.  Because these two systems are so close in terms of audio perfromance ( I donb't mean bells a nd whistles)  I would opt on th esure thing and go for Denon

My previou spost should have read:

I would opt on the sure thing and go for Yamaha

Guest · Dec 21, 2003

Yamahaluvr I hope you got your unit!

Just got it hooked up, the process was very smooth as the back panel is very user friendly.

So far without any adjustments it sound really clean and crisp.

I will keep you posted.

artiechoke · Dec 21, 2003

Hello everyone, this is my first time here - so I'm a newbie.

I have been agonizing over what receiver or separates to purchase. I am not an audiophile, I am just learning. I do not have an unlimited budget. At the most, I don't want to spend more than $4,500.

Here is what I own so far: I have Infinity 8 Kappas for my front speakers, Infinity Rs 6bs for the main rear surrounds, Infinity Reference Three speakers for the Rear and AR TSW 210s for the side speakers (or they will be used for the 50 watt fronts - if I get the Yamaha Rx-Z9). I have a Pioneer non-powered subwoofer that I will be replacing soon with a powered subwoofer (probably an Infinity) and I have a Signet SL 260 center Speaker.

After looking at the receiver reviews on audioholics.com and your discussions, I visited my local audio video dealer. They've been in business a long time and they seem to be very well schooled in the latest technology and systems.

The owner told me he would recommend either the Denon 5803 or the Yamaha Rx-Z9 (Cost would be between $3,300 - $3,500 including tax, etc.). He said that if I would like to move up to separates, He would recommend the B&K 200.7 amplifier (or the 200.3 & 200.2 combined) and the B&K Reference 50 preamp processor tuner (approximately $4,500 total). He said he would recommend the B&K 200.7 amp and Reference 50 preamp over the Denon 5803 or the Yamaha Rx-Z9. He said the B&K Reference 50 is more upgradeable than the Denon or the Yamaha and you can use your computer to make adjustments to the settings and some upgrades. He said the benefit with going with separates is if the preamp processor tuner becomes obsolete, you can still keep the amplifier and just upgrade your preamp processor tuner. Separates also keeps the preamp processor tuner away from the heat of the amplifier so your preamp lasts longer.

I noticed that the THD for the B&K is .09% and the Denon is .05% and the Yamaha is .015%. I asked my dealer about the higher distortion rating for the B&K. He said the THD is not important. He said the im distortion is more important and the high voltage is more important. He said the B&K has the AB Mosfet higher end components in it that make the sound cleaner and fuller than either the Denon 5803 or the Yamaha Rx-Z9. Plus the B&K is 200 watts per channel. He said that it has a higher voltage and capacitance rating so it will power my 8 Kappas better than the Denon or the Yamaha. He said the Kappas can go down to 1 ohm during peaks in movies, etc. even though they are rated at 3.7 ohms…so I’ll need a good high voltage amp.

Since audioholics has not rated the B&K in their reviews or the Rx-Z9, I’m relying on your feedback.

Please give me your opinions:

1) Should I go with Denon 5803, Yamaha Rx-Z9 or B&K 200.7 & Reference 50 separates (is it worth $1,000 more)?

2) Does THD matter?

3) What is im distortion and how do these systems compare with im distortion?

4) Which system has the better amplifier? I have a feeling it is the B&K system.

5) If it is the B&K, how does the Yamaha Rx-Z9 amplifier and capacitors compare to the Denon 5803’s amplifier and capacitors?

6) I saw a rating of 28,000uF for the Yamaha and a rating of 66,000uF for the Denon. Is the Yamaha uF rating really that low?

7) What is the uF rating for the B&K 200.7 amplifier?

Thanks in advance for your thoughtful assistance and Happy Holidays!

Yamahaluver · Dec 21, 2003

Hi RXZ-9 Martin Logan,

My unit is tentatively poised to arrive from Germany on thursday this week, believe me, I am as anxious as anyone for this unit to come after all this long delay.

Guest · Dec 27, 2003

I think Yamahaluvr will agree with me, that this is the best out there right now!!!

RX-Z9

Yamahaluver · Dec 27, 2003

I have received the Z-9 on Christmas day and am going through it thorougly before I post a review, I can only fully agree that there is no equivalent to this unit and anyone who gets an outboard amp and ruins the wonderful sound of the Z-9's inbuilt amps need his/her heads examined. The amp unit is really competent and has oodles of power, two channel mode so far is really impressive and so is the movie mode, never a fan of THX, I feel Yamaha's patented Cinema DSP modes have been greatly improved over the already fantastic Z-1, the Adventure and Spectacle mode rocks.

I for one would gladly the amount Yamaha is asking as you get more that what you pay for, the amp section alone is worth that much unlike the hyped stuff out there costing much more and offering nothing but name branding.

ehlim · Dec 27, 2003

Hi,

I'm new here.

Can anyone tell me where can I get info for Denon 5803?  I could not find it on Denon website.

Thanks

Regards

Denon 5803 or Yamaha Z9

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