Denon 3808 vs. 2809

[typehxr1]

My 4 year old Samsung DLP recently went out, so I got the TV I've always wanted...a 50" Pioneer Kuro plasma. Love it! I also have a PS3, and my new DVR uses HDMI. My 2.5 year old Pio receiver is old now (no HDMI inputs).

I'm going back and forth between the Denon 3808 and 2809. I'm wondering if I should spend the extra for the ethernet port and a little more power. After lurking on here for a while, here are my observations:

1. Everyone constantly mentions the fact that the 3808 can receive firmware updates via the internet. So I ask, how do all the other models w/out ethernet jacks get updated? A disc? Mail it in? I've never even heard of a receiver getting upgrades but they are much more sophisticated these days. What exactly would be getting updated...audio codecs or something?

2. Several people mention loving streaming music from their computer or satellite radio or internet radio. One thing that no one seems to mention is whether they just connect their iPod to the optional dock or directly w/out the dock. I personally just listen to music files on my computer (which are updated to my iPod). I don't listen to satellite or internet radio. If the internet firmware/software updates are important, then I'll lean towards the 3808 but if they're NOT, wouldn't an iPod connected to the 2809 suffice for my needs? Additionally, I have a Mac, so I don't think the streaming thing would work for me anyway, correct?

3. I used to have a 2002 Onkyo THX receiver that pushed 100x6. It was awesome. My current Pioneer is THX and is rated at 100wpc also. It has not from day one, however; ever had the "balls" that the Onkyo had. I would say comparatively, it sounds like it has 70-75. I don't know if it's a circuitry thing or if Pioneer overstates its specs like some lower end manufacturers do....................My reason for the aforementioned story is that I'm wondering if either Denon will posses the punch at 115 and 130 that the Onkyo had at 100, or if it will in fact bring more power because it is rated higher. Thoughts or experiences?

4. Last question: All other feature sets being equal, how much more power will the extra 15wpc really give me? You know, the whole "law of diminishing returns" thing.

5. Do any of you have a Wii connected to your Denon or another receiver that upconverts to 1080p? My wife would LOVE it if her Wii games looked almost as good as my PS3 ones

I am not considering Onkyo again because my last one blew out and I didn't abuse it. My experience w/Pioneer audio has been great aside from it being underwhelming compared to the Onkyo. I don't find Yamaha to be as "warm" sounding as I'd like and I also (personally) don't consider the brand as high-end as the others. In the same regard, I've always held Denon up really high. I know, I'm weird.

Oh, and Chopin Guy, thanks for posting somewhere about your $1,099 deal from J&R. That price made from go from considering the 2309/2809 to the 2809/3808.


Thanks in advance for your help and Happy Holidays.

 

[Chopin_Guy]

OK well I still take a stab at the issues you brought up here:

1. AVR models that don't have the network capability usually will have to go into a service center to receive any needed firmware updates----that is if the manufacturer will even issue a firmware update for a model without such capabilities. It's more likely they will just install it on new models shipping. So not having the capability to do it yourself can be a pain, especially if it means sending in your gear to get the update.

That aside, like with the 3808 now they have that upgrade package for free and it includes the new Audyssey Dynamic Volume and Multi EQ---which could be useful things to have....I haven't read enough to know their usefulness. Usually the updates are pertaining to the operation or interface of the AVR. Although, who knows, in the future their could be updates for audio codecs or any number of other things---only time will tell....

2. I have no idea if streaming from a Mac will work and is something I have been meaning to investigate as all my computers are Macs as well....although from the what the supported file type is---I would be inclined to say that it will not work for us. Now as for the iPod dock, I have read mixd reviews of this and personally would just get the 1/8" to RCA connector and plug it in that way. I know I have read in the past that the dock is more trouble than it is worth and is too complicated to navigate and control the iPod with....

3. & 4. As for the power issue you will not notice the 15 watt difference to any significant degree.....but it does depend on what speakers you have. If you have speakers that pose a difficult ohm load or are not that sensitive---then you might want to consider that extra power. That aside, the Denon will definitely hold up with the older Onkyo you had without a doubt....

I would also ask you to consider the two units as I has a 2807 and then went up to the 3808 so I was in a somewhat similar upgrade issue. The 2809 weighs 28 pounds on the 3808 weighs 40. I can tell you that this difference from having had both the 28** model and now the 38** model, comes in the amplifier section. I cannot tell you technical specifics, but the amplifier section of the 3808 is much more stout which I imagine is in the powersupply/heatsinks....I would definitely go with the 3808 if you could as is clear a notch above the 28** line of products....

5. As for the upconversion, it will help a bit---but you can onlyo do so much to a signal and your PS3 games will still look superior...the real advantage is routing everything to your Kuro through a single HDMI cable....

You will love the Denon, and IMHO I would go for the 3808 especially if you can get J&R to do that price for you....

 

[typehxr1]

Thanks for the detailed response. My speakers are Energy C-3 bookshelves w/a matching Energy center. I rent a small place, so I haven't gotten beyond 3.1 sound. I am thinking the 2809 would suit my needs best, but I probably will spend the extra dough and get the 3808 and be set for a long time. Thanks to this forum, I discovered monoprice.com and can afford to spend more on the receiver now that I can get the 4 hdmi cables I need for so cheap.

Anyone else that can chime in....please do.

 

[avliner]

Just a side note to the OP:

the FW upgrades on non-wifi AVR's are done thru the RS-232 serial port.
I've done once on my previous AVR (3806), in order to enable 7.1 LPCM.
You just have to download the latest FW and you're done!

BTW, I was basically in the same situation as yours; there is, I had a 3806 model and was thinking about upgrading to the 3808, but after listening to the 2809 at a friend's house I was really impressed, so I told myself why spending more $$ on a 3808, if I'm not going to use the wifi, D-link, HDCD, etc? Long story short, I grabbed a 2809 and couldn't be happier.

Powerwise, I felt no difference, as I've been using an external amp for the L/R fronts though.

I know the 3808 is a more complete AVR, but if you don't need the extras, why paying more? YMMV

Regards, Chuck

 

[typehxr1]

chuck

thanks chuck. we think alot alike

 

[avliner]

You're welcome!

Believe me, you're not going to be disappointed at all with the 2809!

 

[Chopin_Guy]

Just a side note to the OP:

so I told myself why spending more $$ on a 3808, if I'm not going to use the wifi, D-link, HDCD, etc? Long story short, I grabbed a 2809 and couldn't be happier.

The 3808 does not have Wifi....you have to go up to the 4308ci for that. The 3808 is just a nice step up from the 2809 in terms of build quality and the amp section--as I mentioned previously----is much more stout as that is what attributes to the 3808ci weighing 12lbs more than the than that 2809.

Depending on what prices you are finding and your needs the 2809 is a very good AVR....but if you can still get J&R or your local dealer to match the $1099 on the 3808---it's hard to beat...

 

[avliner]

Chopin_Guy,

yeah, you're right about the wifi capability; it's for the 4308 onwards.
I meant internet streaming and wrote wifi, sorry.

In other hand, I could grab the 2809 for basically $ 340 less than the J&R offer though. No doubt about the 3808 being a step above, indeed.

Regards, Chuck

 

[typehxr1]

J&r

I called J&R and not only did they not match the $1,099, but wouldn't budge from the $1,299 price. Onecall.com has them cheaper so screw 'em. Ah well, I tried.

 

[browninggold]

I have the 3808

Have had for one year now. No problems at all. Running DirectTV HD, X-Box 360 Elite, Denon Blu-Ray player and a Toshiba HD player, all by hdmi to 3808 to hdmi out to plasma. I have everything set to auto for upconversion. I have a hardline always connected to my 3808 (from Monoprice) for FW updates. This makes it very easy to update-also purchased the 100 dollar upgrade for Dynamic eq and audio-really made a diffrence in overall sound. I am very satisfied with this receiver...should be the last one I have to purchase because it does have the update capabilities for future. Denon is good at updating this unit, I have had four or five maybe more since I have owned mine. I am currently streaming music from my computer to my denon...also use my zune to play music. Also listen to a lot of internet radio-nice feature. It also has a web interface where you can save/change prefrence right from your laptop.

 

[typehxr1]

Have had for one year now. No problems at all. Running DirectTV HD, X-Box 360 Elite, Denon Blu-Ray player and a Toshiba HD player, all by hdmi to 3808 to hdmi out to plasma. I have everything set to auto for upconversion. I have a hardline always connected to my 3808 (from Monoprice) for FW updates. This makes it very easy to update-also purchased the 100 dollar upgrade for Dynamic eq and audio-really made a diffrence in overall sound. I am very satisfied with this receiver...should be the last one I have to purchase because it does have the update capabilities for future. Denon is good at updating this unit, I have had four or five maybe more since I have owned mine. I am currently streaming music from my computer to my denon...also use my zune to play music. Also listen to a lot of internet radio-nice feature. It also has a web interface where you can save/change prefrence right from your laptop.

4 or 5 updates in a year? That's great they're on top of things, but ****, maybe I should consider it now. I was starting lean towards a 1909 w/a Rotel power amp. I wonder if all the updates are for features I would use or ones I wouldn't ????

 

[browninggold]

look at the 3808 closer-

I purchased the 3808. They are "updates", usually for the everchanging sound codecs. So your reciever should never grow old. It did have a feature upgrade but it cost one hundred dollars which was for dynamic eq and volume-also had rhapsody...and a few other perks included. The dynamic eq helped a lot. Movies sound awesome.

 

[browninggold]

also

I almost forgot if you purchase the 3808 right now it is a free feature upgrade. The dynamic eq and volume-this alone is worth $100. Also the onscreen gui is nice on the 3808, very ez to use. I do not know if the 2809 has that feature. Anyway sorry to make a hard decision for you...but the 3808 is pretty nice.

 

[Movieguy]

My 4 year old Samsung DLP recently went out, so I got the TV I've always wanted...a 50" Pioneer Kuro plasma. Love it! I also have a PS3, and my new DVR uses HDMI. My 2.5 year old Pio receiver is old now (no HDMI inputs).

I'm going back and forth between the Denon 3808 and 2809. I'm wondering if I should spend the extra for the ethernet port and a little more power. After lurking on here for a while, here are my observations:

1. Everyone constantly mentions the fact that the 3808 can receive firmware updates via the internet. So I ask, how do all the other models w/out ethernet jacks get updated? A disc? Mail it in? I've never even heard of a receiver getting upgrades but they are much more sophisticated these days. What exactly would be getting updated...audio codecs or something?

2. Several people mention loving streaming music from their computer or satellite radio or internet radio. One thing that no one seems to mention is whether they just connect their iPod to the optional dock or directly w/out the dock. I personally just listen to music files on my computer (which are updated to my iPod). I don't listen to satellite or internet radio. If the internet firmware/software updates are important, then I'll lean towards the 3808 but if they're NOT, wouldn't an iPod connected to the 2809 suffice for my needs? Additionally, I have a Mac, so I don't think the streaming thing would work for me anyway, correct?

3. I used to have a 2002 Onkyo THX receiver that pushed 100x6. It was awesome. My current Pioneer is THX and is rated at 100wpc also. It has not from day one, however; ever had the "balls" that the Onkyo had. I would say comparatively, it sounds like it has 70-75. I don't know if it's a circuitry thing or if Pioneer overstates its specs like some lower end manufacturers do....................My reason for the aforementioned story is that I'm wondering if either Denon will posses the punch at 115 and 130 that the Onkyo had at 100, or if it will in fact bring more power because it is rated higher. Thoughts or experiences?

4. Last question: All other feature sets being equal, how much more power will the extra 15wpc really give me? You know, the whole "law of diminishing returns" thing.

5. Do any of you have a Wii connected to your Denon or another receiver that upconverts to 1080p? My wife would LOVE it if her Wii games looked almost as good as my PS3 ones

I am not considering Onkyo again because my last one blew out and I didn't abuse it. My experience w/Pioneer audio has been great aside from it being underwhelming compared to the Onkyo. I don't find Yamaha to be as "warm" sounding as I'd like and I also (personally) don't consider the brand as high-end as the others. In the same regard, I've always held Denon up really high. I know, I'm weird.

Oh, and Chopin Guy, thanks for posting somewhere about your $1,099 deal from J&R. That price made from go from considering the 2309/2809 to the 2809/3808.


Thanks in advance for your help and Happy Holidays.

I have the Sunfire TGR-3, Denon AVR 5308CI, and Sony STR-DA9000ES. After listening to these top of the line systems. I must say Denon AVR 5308CI takes the cake on sound quality. You might want to consider Denon AVR 988 instead of 2809, which is very close to AVR-3808CI but without the internet link/network and HDCD.. The reason is it's all about THD, which is 0.05% on the AVR 988. Most of the AVR make loud noise but the clarity that counts and where the system getting expensive. The AVR 988 going for about $550 on Amazon.com which is a gret deal. Personally, I would pay a little bit more and get the AVR 4308CI and get most of features of AVR 5308CI but without the THX Ultra 2... You can get the AVR 4308CI around $1719-$1850. I have my eyes on the Yamaha RX-Z11 or may be the RX-Z7 just because the THD is lower than Denon, 0.04% vs. 0.05%. When testing the receiver, use the same set of speakers and Blue ray DVD in order to familiar which the sound and distinguish the clarity of it. Anyway, good luck on your research and getting your receiver.

 

[Chopin_Guy]

4 or 5 updates in a year? That's great they're on top of things, but ****, maybe I should consider it now. I was starting lean towards a 1909 w/a Rotel power amp. I wonder if all the updates are for features I would use or ones I wouldn't ????

It is true that with the 3808ci you will be able to much more easily get these firmware updates and keep your AVR up to date. Now in the future there is no way to say whether or not the updates will be as regular....only time will tell.

As for your 1909 that will *not* work as the 1909 has no pre-amp outputs to use with an external amp amp. If this is something you are considering you will need to go up to the 2309ci as that is the first model in the Denon line to offer you the pre-amp outs...Or as Movieuy suggested you can get the 988 (which is the same model as the 2808ci) for $550 on Amazon and then add the Rotel to it...Depends on how many HDMI inputs you need however, as the 988/2808ci has only 2 HDMI in...

Personally, I would pay a little bit more and get the AVR 4308CI and get most of features of AVR 5308CI but without the THX Ultra 2... You can get the AVR 4308CI around $1719-$1850.

Considering that you can get the 3808ci for $1099 to $1,199 depending on the dealer and time you buy the 4308ci is quite a bit more $$$ and not anywhere in the ballpark of the OP stated price range...

I have my eyes on the Yamaha RX-Z11 or may be the RX-Z7 just because the THD is lower than Denon, 0.04% vs. 0.05%.

There is not a single person on the face of the planet whose ears will be able to differentiate the difference in .04% and .05% THD....this figure alone translates in *NO* difference in quality of sound unless your ears are scientific instruments....and even then it would be questionable...

So typehxr1, if you can manage the 3808ci it is an excellent AVR otherwise you can do the 988 with an external amp for more power if that is your need or you can look to the higher end of the Onkyo line--like the sr876 which offers excellent value, perfomance, and plenty of power....So many options but as always it comes down to your room, speakers, listening habits, and required features....

 

[typehxr1]

Damn, thanks for the heads up on the 1909. I'd like to think that I would have caught that but can't say for sure.

I've decided to (for 6-18 months) keep my Pioneer 1015 thx (though its power is overstated) receiver as my processor and get an external amplifier as that's more of a sure thing for me than a receiver at the moment. I was looking at Emotiva but will likely get a used Rotel, Parasound, or Acurus amp.

I will most likely get a 5 channel, but am considering 3's as well. I only have fronts and a center at the moment and that will remain the same for another 18 months. I'd only listen to 5.1 or 7.1 (which I understand most movies don't even have soundtracks for) to watch action movies. I watch them now in 3.1 and am perfectly content.

As a sidebar, I drove 3.5 hours to Houston yesterday to get a pair of NHT Classic Threes and relegate my Energy C3's to the bedroom. They are still breaking in but I don't hear much of a difference. I can tell that the NHT's have a little more control over bass and the mid-range (probably because it has a dedicated mid-range) is more pronounced...so I like that. But, they don't have a "full" sound to them, so I'm leaning towards returning them and getting the now discontinued Energy Veritas 2.2i for the room-filling sound of Energy and the mid-range driver that my C3's are missing. Audioadvisor has them for $900 p/pair!

 

[Chopin_Guy]

Good call on the AVR, assuming you have all the features you need and you have pre-outs on your current AVR, an amp is a good upgrade route to take. Where did you go in Houston to get your NHTs??? And as for your amp search, Audiogon is the way to go for a used unit as you can really pick up some great deals on barely used (store demo units) amps. Are you looking for 5 channel or 2 channel amps??

 

[typehxr1]

Good call on the AVR, assuming you have all the features you need and you have pre-outs on your current AVR, an amp is a good upgrade route to take. Where did you go in Houston to get your NHTs??? And as for your amp search, Audiogon is the way to go for a used unit as you can really pick up some great deals on barely used (store demo units) amps. Are you looking for 5 channel or 2 channel amps??

Well, I was looking for the Denon for 3 reasons. First, more power. Second, my Pioneer has no hdmi inputs (I run my dvr component vid/optical aud and PS3 hdmi video to the tv and optical to the receiver). Still very satisfying but wanted the latest stuff and not having to press as many buttons to switch sources. After so much time on here, I've determined I will wait on that. Third, I got a Panasonic plasma for the bedroom and was going to move the Pio in there. I instead got the 1909 for that. So........in the end, I ended up getting a Denon, but not for what its original intended use. The new TV spawned all the research for everything, by the way.

I've been lurking on Audiogon for a while as well. I got my current Energy speakers from there and had a great experience. I'll probably get a 5 channel amp, unless I get a 3, 2, 2 or 3 2's w/the likelihood of each happening in the order they were mentioned.

I don't see much about Acurus on here. The audiogon ads show the older models having a blinking status light but no problems otherwise and there are newer models for cheap. It doesn't appear though, that they have any 12v triggers (I'm lazy), so it'll be Parasound or Rotel unless I stumble upon a used Outlaw.

 

[PENG]

so I'm leaning towards returning them and getting the now discontinued Energy Veritas 2.2i for the room-filling sound of Energy and the mid-range driver that my C3's are missing. Audioadvisor has them for $900 p/pair!

$900 is a fantastic price, are you sure it is for a pair, not 1?

 

[typehxr1]

$900 is a fantastic price, are you sure it is for a pair, not 1?

Absolutely positive. I called and verified. I shouldn't have posted it on here because they may sell out before I can order them, but as of yesterday, they had 40 in stock.

I'd read somewhere that since being acquired by Klipsch, they are knocking off the Veritas line to make them more affordable and mass market them like they've done w/the Klipsch brand.....ugh! So, these 2.2i's may be legendary if they're the last ever built.