Denon 3805

[fastfreddy]

HI looking at upgrading my current receiver a DENON 3805. main reason for looking is hdmi . the 3805 is rated at 120 watts x 7. my question is two fold first is it worth upgrading the newer denons seem to have weaker amp sections and is hdmi alone worth the upgrade.

thanks

 

[Grador]

For video and system simplicity, it's probably worth upgrading. For audio alone, you'll get mixed responses there.

 

[j_garcia]

You didn't mention price range or what speakers you're driving. The 3313 is probably your equivalent replacement and has 125x7. What are you looking to improve upon exactly? HDMI will give you some small benefits such as the new audio formats available on Blu-ray. The receiver itself will add Audessey room correction which may be a benefit as well.

 

[PENG]

HI looking at upgrading my current receiver a DENON 3805. main reason for looking is hdmi . the 3805 is rated at 120 watts x 7. my question is two fold first is it worth upgrading the newer denons seem to have weaker amp sections and is hdmi alone worth the upgrade.

thanks

The newer Denon amps are not weaker than the 3805 as long as you go above the 3808 level for HDMI and Audyssey. For HDMI alone I don't think it is worth the upgrade. If you must also have mch hd capability then it may be worth it but you still have option, such as acquiring an older/used model BDP for cheap that has 5.1 or 7.1 mch analog outputs.

 

[Pyrrho]

What I think you should do depends on how much money you have, and what exactly you want from your gear. If you are rich, buy the new top of the line model from your favorite brand, and enjoy it. But for someone on a budget, I think I would just keep what you have, and use the multichannel analog inputs for the sound from a BD player, using your automatic setup settings as a guide for setting up the delays and such for the BD player. Oppo makes some nice units, though you can go cheaper if you don't need all of its goodness. But you will need a BD player with multichannel analog outputs (if you want all of the sound formats from BD), and most do not have that.

Now, if you need several multichannel audio inputs due to having many multichannel sources, then you might find it easier to just replace the receiver with a new one. Though as others have commented, if you want equal quality with what you already have, it will not be cheap.

The bottom line is, if there is some feature you really need that your unit does not have, then it will be worth replacing. But not if you can work around the issue (e.g., using multichannel analog connections for BD instead of HDMI for the audio to your receiver) and don't mind dealing with the work around.

Also, the resale value on old surround receivers is quite low, as other people generally want the newer features also, so if you were hoping to get much in return for it to offset the cost of a new unit, you might want to think again.

 

[ichigo]

Denon 3805 weighed 38lbs. The Denon 3313 weighs 26lbs. The closest Denon has today in amp section would be the 4520, and even it weighs less than the the 3805, clocking in at around 36lbs.

The Yamaha 3020 (40lbs) and Onkyo 5010 (55lbs) are the only receivers out there that you could say have a larger amp section than your old 3805.

 

[PENG]

Denon 3805 weighed 38lbs. The Denon 3313 weighs 26lbs. The closest Denon has today in amp section would be the 4520, and even it weighs less than the the 3805, clocking in at around 36lbs.

The Yamaha 3020 (40lbs) and Onkyo 5010 (55lbs) are the only receivers out there that you could say have a larger amp section than your old 3805.

No, I don't think so. You can't base it on weight only. Based on a few bench test measurements I have read, including some in Europe, the Denon 4000 series and 38XX series beat equivalently priced Yamaha in MCH and about the same in two channel output. ADTG, where are you when we need numbers, please show us something.....

I do agree, and have said, for amp section not weaker than the 3805 one has to go with the 3808 and above, i.e. 3808, 4310, 4311, A100, 4520, if HDMI and Audyssey XT are required.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

1) is it worth upgrading ?
2) is hdmi alone worth the upgrade?

IMO:

1) YES
2) YES

Make some phone calls to Electronics Expo, Onecall, Vanns, etc. See if they can get you a Denon 3312/3313 for about $600-650 new.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

...the Denon...beat equivalently priced Yamaha in MCH and about the same in two channel output. ADTG, where are you when we need numbers, please show us something.....

Numbers Game Initiated by Agent PENG.
Numbers Game Assisted by Agent ADTG.

$1200 Yamaha 1020:
Yamaha RX-A1020 A/V Receiver HT Labs Measures | Home Theater

Two channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 113.5 watts
1% distortion at 129.2 watts

Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 63.9 watts
1% distortion at 73.2 watts

Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 57.0 watts
1% distortion at 65.1 watts

------------------

$1100 Denon 3312:
Denon AVR-3312CI A/V Receiver HT Labs Measures | Home Theater

Two channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 122.9 watts
1% distortion at 143.3 watts

Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 82.9 watts
1% distortion at 103.0 watts

Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 79.5 watts
1% distortion at 96.8 watts

------------------

$1200 Yamaha 2CH/5CH/7CH: 129/73/65 WPC
$1100 DENON 2CH/5CH/7CH: 143/103/97 WPC


$550 Yamaha 2CH/5CH/7CH: 111/25/00 WPC (00 = Protection Mode)
$580 DENON 2CH/5CH/7CH: 118/82/69 WPC

http://www.hometheater.com/content/yamaha-rx-v473-and-rx-v573-av-receivers-ht-labs-measures
http://www.hometheater.com/content/denon-avr-1913-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures

$5500 Yamaha: 244/183/160WPC
$5500 DENON: 236/185/169WPC

http://www.hometheater.com/content/yamaha-rx-z11-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures
http://www.hometheater.com/content/denon-avr-5308ci-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures


$1900 Yamaha: 221/82/69WPC
$2000 DENON: 179/131/117WPC

http://www.hometheater.com/content/yamaha-rx-v3900-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures
http://www.hometheater.com/content/denon-avr-4310ci-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures

 

[PENG]

THANKS!!

Agent PENG..

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

THANKS!!

Agent PENG..

LOL. We're nuts!

 

[ichigo]

The Yamahas are artificially locked at 60W/CH, that would be like claiming the TX-NR5008 as 80W/channel when we all know its capable of over 110+, its just chip limited in RMS to prevent heat buildup. The Audioholics RX-A3000 review showed even though its limited to 60W RMS, it can do 150W x 7 easily in bursts, which is the real capability of the amp.

Otherwise it doesn't make sense that a 26lb Denon is outperforming a 40lb Yamaha in multichannel mode but weaker in stereo.

 

[PENG]

The Yamahas are artificially locked at 60W/CH, that would be like claiming the TX-NR5008 as 80W/channel when we all know its capable of over 110+, its just chip limited in RMS to prevent heat buildup. The Audioholics RX-A3000 review showed even though its limited to 60W RMS, it can do 150W x 7 easily in bursts, which is the real capability of the amp.

Otherwise it doesn't make sense that a 26lb Denon is outperforming a 40lb Yamaha in multichannel mode but weaker in stereo.

You should not compare the 26 lb Denon with the 40 lb Yamaha, but even the 26 lb denon can do much more in what you call a short burst. The fact is , lb for lb Denon measures better in mch, and about the same in 2 ch and often slightly better even in 2ch when you compare their competing models. HTM, S&V, HCC have measurement data to show that has been the trend. Don't be fixated on weight either, it's actually easier to make them heavy than light, to a point.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Don't be fixated on weight...

Some get fixated on weight, some on driver sizes, etc...

Hey, my Denon AVR5308 weighs about 60lbs (actually 52.8 lbs) so it must be the BEST IN THE WORLD.

My AVP-A1 (59.5 lbs)weighs more than a $30K Krell Evolution 707 (52 lbs), so my AVP must be better.

Krell Industries, Incorporated, America's premiere manufacturer of high-end audio equipment: award-winning amplifiers, preamplifiers, CD players, DVD players, surround/sound processors, loudspeakers

 

[surveyor]

Some get fixated on weight, some on driver sizes, etc...

Hey, my Denon AVR5308 weighs about 60lbs so it must be the BEST IN THE WORLD.

My AVP-A1 weighs more than a $30K Krell, so my AVP must be better.

Watch out, what about the 5805 that Gene had? It's approximately 1.64 times better than my 4520 though!

 

[PENG]

Watch out, what about the 5805 that Gene had? It's approximately 1.64 times better than my 4520 though!

And the NAD T787 that weighs 55.6 lbs, take a look of their measured output:

"This graph shows that the T 787’s left channel, from A1 input to speaker output with two channels driving 8-ohm loads, reaches 0.1 percent distortion at 152.7 watts and 1 percent distortion at 184.5 watts. Into 4 ohms, the amplifier reaches 0.1 percent distortion at 180.1 watts and 1 percent distortion at 207.1 watts."

So those 36 to 40 lbs Denon and Yamaha beat it by more than 1 dB, even in ACD. Owners of NAD please don't be upset with me, I am only quoting the HTM figures just as an example. I am quite sure the T787 will output much more in real world material that has lots of peaks and only need less than 20WPC on average most of the time.

If you look at some of the EMO models and calculate their Watts/lb, you will also notice that they are all over the map. Weight is an indicator, to a point only.

By the way, power consumption is another all over the map spec probably due to lack of universal standards:

Yamaha RX-A3010, 490W/620VA
Denon AVR-4311, 780W

Denon - used to provide the current, something like 8.1A, and would translate into 972 VA.

Yamaha - sometimes provides "maximum" power consumption as well, and that typically bump it up to over 1000W, and I believe they had previously stated that would be for 10% THD but did not say how many channel.

Harman Kardon - Some models provide both consumption and maximum consumption figures, some just consumption and some just maximum consumption.

It is not easy to know how "exactly" to compare power consumption. Many people would just quote those figures on forums without any qualifications, as they probably thought those figures are gospels and were under the impression that those with the highest numbers should be most powerful. I have seen enough bench test results to know one has to look deeper.

My point is, lots of those specs are just indicators that often do not allow us to do fair comparisons. IMHO, one reasonable way is to compare them base on lab measurements by the same person using the same equipment consistently such as those by HTM, HCC, Stereophile, S&V. Even then, it is only good to a point but at least they tell you how they do their tests and what those numbers represent in some cases.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Watch out, what about the 5805 that Gene had? It's approximately 1.64 times better than my 4520 though!

Oh, man that AVR weighed like 98 lbs or something.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think when 4K video is standard on HDTV, BD, etc, I will get a new DENON AVP-A2 (or something). But until that day, I will stick with my old AVP-A1.

 

[PENG]

This is a HCC review that shows the Denon AVR-4311 beats the Yamaha RX-A3067 (I guess UK version of the 3010), Pioneer SC-LX83 and even the >50 lbs Onkyo TX-NR 5008 in their fidelity firewall output measurements, though just slightly. HCC defines their Fidelity Firewall for those interested.

Denon AVR-4311 review

They also reviewed the 4520 and gave it 5/5 stars and awarded it "reference status". Note that HCC typically also rate Yamaha AVR very high.