Denon 3805 says surrounds out of phase, not?

M

MarieonCape

Audioholic Intern
<font color='#000000'>I recently bought the new Denon AVR-3805 receiver. One of the features that caused me to buy it was the auto-setup of the speaker charaterisics, delay, &amp; room EQ settings. This required a seperate microphone, which I was able to buy ($60) at the dealer's yesterday.

I hooked up the microphone and carefully followed instructions. The 3805 went through the test tone/analyze process and in the end reported: &quot;ERROR! the Right/Left Surround speakers are out of phase&quot; (and hence couldn't finish the set up). I didn't think that was possible, I was pretty careful when I replaced the old receiver with the 3805 in making the connections but assume nothing right? So I visually inspected the connections at the speakers and confirmed that on both speakers the &quot;indicator&quot; side of the speaker cable pair was hooked to the red terminal. I inspected the speaker hook up at the back of the receiver and confirmed that the &quot;indicator&quot; side of the speaker cable was attached to red terminals there as well.

That means they should be in phase, right? What else could it be? Since the surrounds are switchable from bipole to dipole I thought that the setting might be fooling the set-up analyzing program so I switched both speakers to the bipole setting and retried - with the same result: ERROR! Surround R/L out of phase.

So maybe it is right somehow. To test I swap the wires from one the speakers at the back if receiver from red to black and black to red and retest. This time it finishes successfully. However in the &quot;confirmation&quot; phase of the auto set up it has identified my surround speakers as &quot;Large&quot;. When I initially set up the system I identified them as &quot;Small&quot;. The largest driver on the speakers is 4&quot;. It can't be &quot;Large&quot;. (I reset them to small.)

I am trying to figure where the problem could be. Here are my ideas, any sound right? Is there a better explanation?

1. There is an internal speaker wiring defect. But the second test (external wiring reversed) should have been right - but oddly produced a &quot;Large&quot; size for the surrounds.

2. There is an internal receiver wiring defect. Same as above, reversing the external connections should have compensated, right? The test did finish, but produced &quot;Large&quot; surround speaker type.

3. The auto-setup doesn't work as well as hoped. I was hoping for too much from the relatively new technology, and it isn't going to work. BTW - phase is tested by the tones, not electrically. Bought the new model too soon?

Thanks,

Marie</font>
 
jeffsg4mac

jeffsg4mac

Republican Poster Boy
<font color='#000000'>It could be a defect I have seen it before in speakers. Get a AAA, AA, C or D battery and some wire, connect the + and - of the battery to the same on the speaker terminals, now watch the woofer on the speaker you are testing, as you touch the wire to the battery and remove it you should see the cone move out, if it moves in then it is out of phase. Test each speaker.</font>
 
M

MarieonCape

Audioholic Intern
<font color='#000000'>It has taken me a while to take down the speakers and do this but I tried with a c-size battery that I had just recharged. When I first made the connection I heard a sound but saw no movement. Subsequent tries I heard no sound or saw no movement. Since I didn't hear a sound on the second attempt I worried I damaged my speaker. I reconnected it and it seems to work fine. The &quot;woofer&quot; on this speaker is only 4 inches I have no idea how much it can be expected to move in and out. I am thinking of taking them back to the store to have them checked out. Another option I have is that I have another pair of the same speakers. I could try those hooked up to the 3805 and see if I get the same results.</font>
 
Clint DeBoer

Clint DeBoer

Banned
<font color='#000080'>(I'm writing this from my HTPC while I listen to music on the new 3805 review system)

While I haven't run the auto-clibration yet, it sounds to me like some bass modes may be playing havok ith your microphone. Try this: move the mic about 2-3 back or front from the listening position and try again, or move your sub at least 2-3 feet from its current location. This will be &nbsp;good way to see if it is indeed bass frequencies that are interfering with the test.</font>
 
jeffsg4mac

jeffsg4mac

Republican Poster Boy
<font color='#000000'>When you touch the wire to the battery you should be able to see the woofer move either in or out, look very closely it might not move much, but it will move. The battery will not harm your speaker at all. all you are doing is touching the wire to the battery for a second or two at a time. The woofer has to move unless it is fried. This is the only way I know of to correctly verify phase without taking the speaker apart and check the wiring at the woofer and the xover. Trust me, I did speaker repair for 5 years.</font>
 
M

MarieonCape

Audioholic Intern
<font color='#000000'>Thanks Jeff for the assurances! The speakers seems to function correctly when I tried this again.

Hawke - I can't wait for the results! (Or at least I HOPE I can't wait for the results - this is one of the very few things I've ever bought so early in its lifecycle, ahead of reviews, ahead of sales, ahead of everyone else!).

Something in the air does seem to affect the results. I tried moving the microphone or surround speakers (since they were down for testing) slightly and I do get difference results. A tone is generated for each channel, one at a time, so I am interested in how the base from the sub would affect surround speakers if they are tested by the system at different times? &nbsp;BTW - the sub is in the corner of the room I couldn't move it any further away.

I should say that I had detached/attached the wires during the process and reconnected at the receiver making sure R to R, L to L, red to red.

After testing the speakers as Jeff suggested I ran the auto setup again before remouting the the speakers to the wall brackets. It tested fine. Then I dropped the speaker* as I was tying to remount it. I didn't see any external damage, I played something through and it still seemed to be working, so I re-ran the Denon auto setup and this time I got the out of phase error. I tried a retest using another of the same speaker, and it tested fine. Just to see I went back to the original speaker. Now it tests OK. So I remount it, re-test, and the test finishes OK, but again it identifies the rear surround speakers as &quot;Large&quot;.

Don't be afraid to run the auto setup - it doesn't automatically change anything. After it analyzes your system you can review the findings and decide to accept them on not. I confirmed with a tape measire that it accurately measured the distance from the speakers to the microphone.

Thanks again,

Marie

*Yes, as in &quot;total klutz&quot;, I fumbled the thing as I lost grip on it (it is pretty heavy for it's size) and it fell about 12 - 18 inches from my hand on to the end table, collecting some candle wax in the speaker grill, and then bouned to the carpeted floor. &nbsp;Of course, that's so me. &nbsp;Would never had happend (wouldn't have had any reason to take the speaker down) if the auto-test had finished OK in the first place.</font>
 
U

Unregistered

Guest
Denon autosetup help

Make sure you have the direct mode off before you run the autosetup. It should be under the menu page Autosetup/ Room EQ.
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Out of Phase Error on Autocalibration Receivers

All;

Do not blindly follow what the receiver is telling you regarding speakers being out of phase. Some 3 way speakers have the woofers, or tweeters purposely wired out of phase for proper summing at the crossover frequencies. This can lead in an erroneous reading when running the phase checker on receivers with this feature (IE. Yamaha RX-V2400, Denon AVR-3805). The best way to determine if your speakers are in phase is to first check the connections, and then use a test disc such as Avia to check phase of each speaker.


I noted this in my review on the Yamaha RX-V2400 that you may wish to check out.
 

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