Denon 2308/1910 vs. Yamaha RX-V663 vs. Marantz SR4002

[goldenwings]

I am moving from my old stereo system to my first HT system.

I'm looking for a system with HDMI, 7.1 with A/B speaker options (since I have one room for viewing TV, and other where I usually hear just music), I am also looking for Phono input (only available in the 2308), since I have some LPs that will never be released in CD.

In my country (Uruguay), there are very little choices, so my selection by now are between Denon 2308 or Denon 1910 vs. Yamaha RX-V663 vs. Marantz SR4002

It seems that the Marantz don't have the A/B speakers choice, the others does (the Marantz is the most expensive, so, with less features is probably out of the race).

I heard all the 3 brands, and the Denon sounds better for me (in Direct mode sounds great!), but, all were tested in different rooms, and the Denon was connected to AR speakers, probably better than the Yamaha or the Paradigm at Marantz's dealer.

The 2308 is from 2007, the 1910 is new, and with true HD, and DTS HD, Dolby pro logic IIz, plus 4 HDMI inputs (just 2 in 2308 and Yamaha).

Right now, my concern is about the Denon, the pro of the 2308: Phono input, is Made in Japan (not China like all the others), the pros of the 1910 is the new Dolby Pro Logic IIz, the true HD and DTS HD, (don't know if these are really significant improvements), and the 4 HDMI inputs (these should be helpful in the future).

Will use in the near future my current speakers (old Pioneer CS703, 4 ways, 15" woofer, 200w max, as front, and Paradigm Titan as surround), but I'm planning ot change it as soon as possible, so, we cannot consider the speaker in this discussion.

so, if anyone can make any suggestion, it will be welcomed!

thanks

 

[rnatalli]

I'd go for one of the Denon's as they both include Audyssey MultiEQ. I don't recall if the 2308 will accept PCM over HDMI. If it doesn't, I'd choose the 1910 for the decoders.

 

[GlocksRock]

I'd go wit the AVR-1910 over the Yamaha.

 

[AVRat]

I don't recall if the 2308 will accept PCM over HDMI./QUOTE]

It does, and may be the better option. Although the 1910 without Phono input, you'd only need to add a phono pre-amp for a turntable.

 

[Hicks]

The Denon 1910 is a far better receiver than the 663 in my opinion.

Keep in mind that the Yammy is only rated at 90 wpc up to 1 kHz.

So when you are producing freqs above that (i.e. quite often) you'll be getting significantly less than 90 watts max.

 

[GlocksRock]

The Denon doesn't have preamp outputs though, if that is an issue... but the Yamaha does. I really wish Denon would offer preouts on more of their receivers, so until they do I own't be buying one since I use external amps in both of my systems.

 

[PENG]

So when you are producing freqs above that (i.e. quite often) you'll be getting significantly less than 90 watts max.

Significantly less?? Please do not make statement such as this unless you can back it up with facts.

 

[lsiberian]

The Denon 1910 is a far better receiver than the 663 in my opinion.

Keep in mind that the Yammy is only rated at 90 wpc up to 1 kHz.

So when you are producing freqs above that (i.e. quite often) you'll be getting significantly less than 90 watts max.

I suggest a thorough study of power and how it relate to sound.

1. power differences are only significant when there is a 2x difference between them. So 90 wpc to 180wpc would be a significant step up anything less is insignificant audibly speaking.

The idea you need high power above 1kHz more than below 1kHz is insane. High power isn't required to move a tweeter. Furthermore the hardest frequency to drive is below 1kHz.

But that doesn't mean the amp can't provide 90 watts to the speakers then.

Besides most folks have no need for 90 true watts of continuous power anyway. A 90db sensitive speaker would be nearly 110db at 90 watts.

 

[Hicks]

Significantly less?? Please do not make statement such as this unless you can back it up with facts.

Here you go, sure didn't have to go very far to "back it up".

http://www.audioholics.com/education/frequently-asked-questions/equal-power-ratings-dont-mean-equal-power

Many lower end models and brands tend to rate the power of their amplifiers at 1 kHz, as opposed to full bandwidth. The difference between a full bandwidth (20 Hz to 20 kHz) and 1 kHz can be as much as 20 % of total power.

 

[PENG]

Here you go, sure didn't have to go very far to "back it up".

http://www.audioholics.com/education/frequently-asked-questions/equal-power-ratings-dont-mean-equal-power

I would like to thank you for responding in a positive way, but the fact remains your previous post referred specifically to the Yamaha RX-V663. You may want to review the specifications of that particular receiver. By the way, 20% is hardly considered significant by most people

 

[Hicks]

I would like to thank you for responding in a positive way, but the fact remains your previous post referred specifically to the Yamaha RX-V663. You may want to review the specifications of that particular receiver. By the way, 20% is hardly considered significant by most people

I know there was a bench test done on the 663, perhaps by audioholics, let me see if I can find it.

I'd say 20% is fairly significant myself, but I suppose that is a judgment call.

 

[PENG]

I heard all the 3 brands, and the Denon sounds better for me (in Direct mode sounds great!), but, all were tested in different rooms, and the Denon was connected to AR speakers, probably better than the Yamaha or the Paradigm at Marantz's dealer.

If you enjoy listening music in direct or pure direct mode, the 2308 or the 663 would be my pick. I could be wrong but I am willing to bet the 663 and the 2308 are equipped with higher quality prepro components. The 663 has preouts so it has a slight edge but in my opinion if you are serious enough to add external amp to your AVR, you should go with the higher models such as the Denon AVR-28XX and the Yamaha RX-V1XXX at the minimum.

 

[Hicks]

Ok, it wasn't the 663, it was the 661 but seeing as how build qualities haven't been improving for most midline receivers I think it's still pertinent to this discussion.

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/receivers/2276/test-bench-yamaha-rx-v661-av-receiver.html

With 5 channels driven into 8 ohms the output was at 55 wpc when the receiver went into clipping.

 

[rnatalli]

Here's one of the Yamaha 663 reviews including measurements:

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/avreceivers/608yam663/index7.html

Here's the 863 which is a model up:

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/receivers/2920/yamaha-rx-v863-av-receiver-dolby-digital-performance-page2.html

 

[Hicks]

Here's one of the Yamaha 663 reviews including measurements:

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/avreceivers/608yam663/index7.html

Here's the 863 which is a model up:

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/receivers/2920/yamaha-rx-v863-av-receiver-dolby-digital-performance-page2.html

There you have it, 1% distortion at 75 watts, thanks but no thanks.

Looks like those 110 dB peaks will be severely clipped.

 

[PENG]

Good morning Hicks, my response is going to be lengthy as I am trying to make my points more clearly this time.

There you have it, 1% distortion at 75 watts, thanks but no thanks.

Looks like those 110 dB peaks will be severely clipped.

Please be reminded that I was originally referring to your following post:

The Denon 1910 is a far better receiver than the 663 in my opinion.

Keep in mind that the Yammy is only rated at 90 wpc up to 1 kHz.

So when you are producing freqs above that (i.e. quite often) you'll be getting significantly less than 90 watts max.

I would like to sum up and clarify a few things so the OP won’t be confused. Let me start from the following link to the manual of the RX-V663.

http://www2.yamaha.co.jp/manual/pdf/av/english/re/RX-V663_U.pdf

On page 124, under the audio section, it states:

"Minimum RMS output power for Front, Center, Surround, Surround back 20 to 20 kHz, 0.06% THD, 8 ohms..........95W"

That is the fact in terms of the rating of the unit and we really could have stopped right there.

Now if you want to talk a little about bench tests, then let's refer to the link rnatalli provided for the 663:

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/avreceivers/608yam663/index7.html

It provided the following test data:

"This graph shows that the RX-V663’s left channel, from Multi input to speaker output with two channels driving 8-ohm loads continuously at 1 kHz, reached 0.1% distortion at 166.7 watts and 1% distortion at 190.7 watts. Into 4 ohms, the amplifier reached 0.1% distortion at 218.0 watts and 1% distortion at 245.9 watts."

Note that the higher tested outputs were likely maily due to the higher THD than Yamaha's specified 0.06%, not because of the 1 kHz test signal alone.

Your quoted 75 wpc at 1% distortion was not from the bench test of the 663. If you checked for yourself you will see that you might have picked the wrong link. rnatalli provided two links, one for the 663 and one for the 863. That being said, I do find it odd that the 863 tested less powerful. I can guess the reasons, but I can’t be sure. It is irrelevant in this case because I was only questioning your statement concerning what the 663 was rated for by the manufacturer, not by a 3rd party. It would have been totally relevant if we were talking about ratings verified by a 3rd/independent party but then the OP would have to compare all 3 receivers in terms of bench test results in order to make a fair comparison.

Again, all along I was only concerned about your statement regarding the rating of the 663 and the claimed “significantly less” output for 20 to 20 kHz than the 1 kHz. You first tried to back that up by linking an article that cited a 20% difference. While I do appreciate that even a 20% difference could be perceived by some (like you) as significant, (though in real world performance it is not) but that article was talking about entry level receivers in general. The RX-V663 is not likely to be among one of those the writer referred to, as you can clearly see that Yamaha does specify the 663’s output for the entire 20 to 20 kHz frequency range. Then you delved into bench tests data. In doing so you quoted the wrong data (I am sure unintentionally) and that further confused the issue and I am concerned the OP may be misled by that as well.

Obviously you are only trying to help but I think we both want the OP to make his choices based on accurate information as much as possible. I don’t think we need to digress into the whole different topic of how to interpret various bench tests data in this thread, but if you are interested, you can always start a new thread.

 

[Hicks]

Peng, thanks for taking the time to post the detailed response, I do indeed appreciate it.

But when I mentioned the 1% distortion at 75 watts spec, I was referring to the 663 article, but for five channels driven, which for me is a pertinent spec since many people will be using the 663 as a home theater receiver.

With five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads, the amp reached 0.1% distortion at 60.0 watts and 1% distortion at 74.9 watts. With seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads, it reached 0.1% distortion at 47.3 watts and 1% distortion at 57.8 watts.

As for Yamaha using 1 kHz for their power rating, I stand corrected, thanks for clarifying.

But the bench test does seem to call their spec into question, which is what I was trying to get at the whole time, although admittedly I was a bit disorganized in how I presented my case.

 

[lsiberian]

I do suggest an Onkyo 606 as another option. It benched very high.

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/avreceivers/608onk606/

 

[cjsiv]

As an owner of both the yamaha 663 and the denon 1910, I can't recommend the Denon enough. To me it is not even a competition when comparing the two. If you don't need the pre-outs, I wouldn't even think twice. Read my review of the 1910 in the reviews section of the forum. Audyssey is priceless in my opinion. I've played live music for years and the Denon with DD or TruHD is simply lifelike. Kinda made me wanna weep for my glory days.....

 

[goldenwings]

Hi everybody

Thanks a lot for all the sugestions, I finally decided for the Denon AVR 2308 (instead of 1910), mainly 'cause it includes the phono input (I prefer to have it included in the receiver instead of a external preamp with the 1910, even if the 1910 have the newer Dolby pro logic IIz, DTS HD and Dolby true HD).

Quite an improvement for my old Technics SA390, from 1987!

I've just started the installation of the Denon today, and I will try tomorrow how to make works the bi amp zone, my intention is to have a 5.1 zone in room A, from a DVD (or a Blue-ray in a future) source, and another stereo zone in a room B, from another audio source (mostly CDs). It seems this is possible, using the Surround Back/Amp Assign, to connect the speakers in zone B.

If anybody have experience about how this should be configured, please send me a tip, the owner manual isn't very clear about this.