Cryo

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>Everything from interconnects to AC outlets to vacuum tubes seem to benefit from cryo treatment.  Is there a scientific basis for this phenomenon?  </font>

 

[Audioholics]

<font color='#008080'>Benefit how, exactly? What have you heard that leads to think that it makes the wire more transparent or accurate?</font>

 

[Yamahaluver]

<font color='#0000FF'>Errr.........can some please enlighten an uneducated lout like me on the Cryo effect? I know that a/c polarity issue has some basis in it and have tried it out myself.</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>Claims of the benefit if cryo treatment are rampant in the audiophile community.  Almost everywhere you look there are vendors that sell cryo'd accessories to audiophiles.  It's not hard to find people who swear that the treated components sound better.  

Do I believe it?  No, but I'm trying to be diplomatic until I have done a little research on the issue.  

Here is what I do know:

1) Running gear at a few degrees above absolute zero significantly reduces electrical noise.  (e.g., receivers used by GTE on the huge 50' satellite dishes are chilled.)  However, when the temp. returns to normal, so does the noise.

2) Annealing metals at high temperature reduced internal stress, resulting in increased strength.

3) Places that actually do cryo treatment claim that metals are strengthened as a result of their treatment.  For example, one place claims that aluminum baseball bats will hit a ball farther after cryo treatment.  Are the claims valid?  I don't know.

What does this add up to for audio?  Hocus-pocus? Half truths? The power of suggestion?  Or is there some science behind the claims that I am not aware of?</font>

 

[Yamahaluver]

<font color='#0000FF'>This is interesting stuff. Thanks for the info.</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>There's a tremendous benefit to cryo treatment. Unfortunately it's not for you but for the folks who do the cryo. There is no scientific evidence that whatever changes occurr to wires, CD's, or Ted Williams, translate to audible sonic benefits. It's real easy for advocates of the cryo treatment to say they hear a &quot;dramatic&quot; difference in the sound of their components, but that's not proof. Some people see the Loch Ness monster too.</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>I've researched this topic to great lengths by talking with cryo-labs, going to Universities and meeting with Materials Experts, reading Engineering Text Books on Materials, taking many Materials classes during my years as a Mechanical Engineering Student, and looking all over the Internet, and I STILL find NO conclusive evidence or even mention of the fact that cryo-freezing is beneficial to electrical properties of cables. &nbsp;

In fact, the only companies that talk about cryo-freezing cables are a handful of exotic cable manufacturers. &nbsp;Is this a strange coincidence?

The reason why these companies are applying cryo-freezing to cables is because they are implementing something that is valid for stress relief, then distorting the facts, twisting the truth and applying it to electric current. &nbsp;Folks, the two are completely separate and different.

First of all, not all metals are stress relieved at cryogenic temperatures. &nbsp;Copper is one such metal that only has marginal, at best, mechanical benefit from cryo-freezing. &nbsp;Secondly, Cryo-freezing is primarily used as a form of stress relieving certain metallic objects that have gone through an agitated form of fabrication. &nbsp;Other forms of stress relief include heating and annealing, shot blasting or sand blasting, and heating and vibrating. &nbsp;The method selected is dependant on the material and the desired result. &nbsp;

As an example of something that is benefited by stress relieving via cryo-freezing, let’s consider a brass instrument, such as a trumpet or saxophone. &nbsp;Brass instruments are forged into shape and during that process internal stresses in the material develop in areas that have gone through substantial deformation and/or bending. &nbsp;A brass instruments tonal quality is dependant on vibration of the instrument which can be characterized as the sonic resonance of the instrument. &nbsp;The stresses within the material which froms during the forging process slightly alter the instruments sonic resonance, but NOT SIGNIFICANTLY. &nbsp;There can be a marginal improvement to the tonal quality of a brass instrument by stress relieving the instrument either through heat (which can be detrimental to other parts of the instrument) or by cryo-freezing. &nbsp;For example, after a 48-hour cryogenic temperature soak in liquid nitrogen, and a very slow warming process, the sonic resonance of the instrument slightly improves as the stress is partially relieved in localized areas of high stress. &nbsp;As sound is formed during blowing through and vibrating the instrument there can be a very marginal improvement to the tonal qualities of that instrument which may be noted by some with a good ear.

PLEASE, OH PLEASE NOTE: &nbsp;There is NO/ZERO/ZIP/NADA change in the electrical properties of the material. &nbsp;As cables are characterized by resistance, inductance and capacitance (also known as R L C), and there is NO measurable changes to these values, their ability to carry a signal remains unaltered before and after cryo-freezing. &nbsp;

As for proof, ask ANY of the cable companies who perform cryo-treatments on their cables to show you measurements relating to a change in resistance, inductance or capacitance. &nbsp;What you’ll get instead is a total BS story about how it’s not measurable and the benefit is accomplished on a microscopic level by the improvement to the micro structure of the material. &nbsp;Well, since electrons don't give a rip about the micro structure of the material, there is NO validity to these claims. &nbsp;You can stress relieve a cable all you want via cryo-freezing, but the electrons are still going to only react to resistance, inductance and capacitance, not internal stresses and micro structure.

In conclusion, there is NO benefit in cryo-freezing anything by which the performance is based on electrical properties. &nbsp;You can successfully cryo-freeze brass instruments, guitar strings, mechanical parts that you wish to improve the fatigue life on, and other assorted goodies that may benefit from stress relief, but in no way, shape or form, is anything changed electrically, thereby eliminating any possible benefit to cryo-freezing your cables. &nbsp;So save your money and avoid ANY and ALL cable companies who promote such nonsense.</font>

 

[Dan Banquer]

<font color='#000000'>Years ago, Clark Johnsen of The Listening Studio here in Boston and now a writer for Positive Feedback was claiming that by cryo treating CD's you get rid of a 825 Hz resonance that was supposedly inherent to all CD's. I handed one Enya CD to him for this treatment and compared it to the same Enya CD I went out and purchased. To this day I can't hear a difference between the two CD's. By High End Audiophile standards I am obviously deaf.</font>

 

[Yamahaluver]

<font color='#0000FF'><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>

Dan Banquer : Years ago, Clark Johnsen of The Listening Studio here in Boston and now a writer for Positive Feedback was claiming that by cryo treating CD's you get rid of a 825 Hz resonance that was supposedly inherent to all CD's. I handed one Enya CD to him for this treatment and compared it to the same Enya CD I went out and purchased. To this day I can't hear a difference between the two CD's. By High End Audiophile standards I am obviously deaf.

I guess that puts me in the same league as you Dan. Totally deaf when it comes to subtle things others claim to hear.

Real mid-fi or low-fi hearing.</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>

I am a metallurgist. &nbsp;I have worked in the cryogenic field for over 25 years. &nbsp;Claims of benefits by cryo treatment are all over the map. &nbsp;The only really valid metallurgical explanation is cryogenic treatment to reduce what is called retained austenite structure in an iron based alloy. &nbsp;As carbon steel product is quickly quenched from its heat treat temperature it produces a structure called martensite. &nbsp;Once that metal reaches room temperature it will have attained an incomplete martensitic structure with the remainder called retained austenite. &nbsp;Continuing that temperature trace to cryogenic temperatures continues to force more of that austenite to the martensitic structure. &nbsp;This has the effect, particularly on such items as screwdrivers tips, nail sets, punches, etc. of providing aded toughness to the structure.

I design and sell a growing number of cryogenic treatment systems and process safety handling guideline information to the materials processing market. It is a part of the overall body of industrial gas applications technology I have been involved with since college.

The claims of superior product performance can be real in the case I mention above but the claims can also be quite dubious and sometimes downright laughable (in private, not in front of a paying customer). &nbsp;However, the market demand by these customer's customers seems to support much of it. &nbsp;A lot of it is the same snake oil claims as you will get from reading the gooble-de-gook from cable or interconnect manufacturers. &nbsp;Usually a pinch of science pulled in from some extreme case and claimed to fit your specific needs and concerns. &nbsp;In most cases. you'd never notice but it does have the impact of positioning a perception that it does somehow matter. &nbsp;

Read this website's info on speaker cabling and interconnects, quite enlightening and about as straighforward and simple for the layperson to understand as can be.

Would I take cabling or interconnects and drop them in a free bath of LIN (liquid nitrogen)? &nbsp;Yes, I would and then go about trying forever to find out exactly what it was that changed other than the fact that I had sent my cables on a brief cryogenic excursion to depths fairly close to where most molecular activity has ceased. &nbsp;Notice I said &quot;FREE&quot; LIN.

</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>I operate a cryogenic company and I have Cryo treated complete systems with no harm done to them...
As for the sound quality changes I will get a few clients to share their views.
I am doing a few tests with some high-end cable companies to see if this process DOES OR DOES NOT
Enhance the sound quality. So far the testing is ....yes a change and no change at all. I will keep you posted on the end result!</font>

 

[gene]

<font color='#000000'>Cryo-Guy;

I would like to see some of these companies test results. &nbsp;I have found through experience with dealing with many of these exotic cable companies that few of them have degreed staffed engineers, and even fewer of them have the proper test equipment to do this type of analysis.

While we welcome customer feedback based on their perceived experiences in sonic changes, we would be more interested in objective measurable data. &nbsp;Thanks.</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>Gene,
You are correct...I have talked to the cable companies and only one has a any sort of degree (so far), this person worked in the military in the classified ballistic end of it and the military used cryogenics for everything from treating electrical wires to metal components.
I am working with a university student who is doing his thesis on cryogenic tempering of materials but his thesis is on only two materials...D2 and 4140. I will see if he can slide in some wire for a complete T.E.M. (transmission electron microscope) exam with some before and after pictures along with resistance, power load tests. (any other test suggestions?)
My Cryo business is with tool steels, motors etc...and the process works tremendously (with the scientific data to prove it) but with cables all I have been told and read is it is mostly &quot;earsay&quot; so I would like to back it with some scientific evidence. Until proven I will not promote or go any further with Cryo wires since I am not a snake oil salesman just to make a buck.
I will do them if a client wants them done but I do not actively go out and promote this field but more and more are asking me to do this for them.....But why?</font>

 

[Audioholics]

<font color='#008080'>hehe... &quot;earsay&quot;. &nbsp;I like that!</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>I have done some experiments with Cryo as well as some listening tests. &nbsp;I manufacture cables, but I take a more scientific approach to this. What I have found is that direct immersion of silver wire definitely damages the crystal structure, resulting in poor sound and measurable reflections at MHz frequencies. &nbsp;This appears to create sibilance at audio frequencies. &nbsp;I have not done the same test using the slow cooling, slow warming process that is typical of treatments done by some cable manufacturers. &nbsp;It is my belief that any type of cryo treatment is not beneficial to pure metals with well-organized crystal lattice. &nbsp;You can see the TDT plots on the Audio FAQ page of my website:
My Webpage

My brother is a metallurgist with 25 years experience and the best man at my wedding and a lifelong friend is the head of the cryo materials research lab at NIST in Boulder. &nbsp;Neither os these experts seem to think that this treatment woudl be beneficial.

I have noticed with metals that are not pure, such as outlets that have brass alloys with silver plating, that Cryo treatment does seem to improve the transient current response - resulting in more dynamics and detail rendering. &nbsp;This conclusion is based strictly on my own listening tests, no measurements.</font>

 

[gene]

<font color='#000000'>Audioeng;

Interesting feedback, however without confirmation with measurements, I would be quite skeptical about anyone who claims they can hear a difference. &nbsp;Almost no speaker cable design would suffer ill effects of transient response, and certainly cryo treating a cable would be even more insignificant. &nbsp;If one cannot measure a difference in transient response, it certainly can not audible. &nbsp;

</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>&quot;&quot;If one cannot measure a difference in transient response, it certainly can not audible.&quot;&quot;GDS

Unless, of course, what one is trying to test cannot be seen with the tests that are being done.

Hi Gene...


Cheers, John</font>

 

[gene]

<font color='#000000'>Hi John;

What's there to look for? &nbsp;If one claims the &quot;transient&quot; response of Cable A is better than Cable B, then a simple 1/10kHz square wave (which has infinitely larger rise/fall times then music) would reveal this difference.

Also, if one claims an improvement in this area, certainly they can provide objective proof, else how could they make that claim in the first place?</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>&quot;&quot;What's there to look for? &nbsp;If one claims the &quot;transient&quot; response of Cable A is better than Cable B, then a simple 1/10kHz square wave (which has infinitely larger rise/fall times then music) would reveal this difference.&quot;&quot;GDS

I don't yet know what's there to look for, if I did, we wouldn't be having this conversation.. &nbsp;The claim of &nbsp;&quot;transient response&quot; improvement is not based on electrical measurement, but on someone's perceived improvements, described or attributed as &quot;transient response&quot;. &nbsp;Viewer and tester may actually have different definitions.

&quot;&quot;Also, if one claims an improvement in this area, certainly they can provide objective proof, else how could they make that claim in the first place?&quot;&quot;GDS

The claim was based on perception. &nbsp;It is quite easy for a person to hear a difference, but be unable to qualify it or measure it. &nbsp;Just as a formula 1 driver may feel the difference between rubber formulations during cornering, but be unable to quantify it in terms of durometers (measure of hardness). (actually, in this day and age, the drivers are probably better able to explain the cornering in terms of durometers, but the point s/b clear)

I 've seen no credible information to explain how cryo could affect wires, tubes, anything audio (other than completing the martensitic transformation in steel or comparable transformations in other alloys). &nbsp;I've seen lots of floobydust, but no reality yet.

Although I can discount the hairball explanations I see a lot of, I still don't think our testing capabilities are all encompassing..well, at least mine..

As for square waves..Reconstruction of one using harmonics is interesting (Gibbs), and excitation with one is to use purely harmonic info, and resolution of multitone issues cannot be viewed if the separate tones are mathematically related.

As an example, if all the leading and trailing edges are shifted 20 uSec, how would you know? &nbsp;If the scope form has any overshoot or ringing, was it your setup?

A coupla non related sines would work better.

Cheers, John</font>

 

[audioengr]

<font color='#000000'>Why don't you guys just buy an outlet that is cryo treated and one that is not and compare the two.  That's what I did.  The difference was obvious to me.....  as a result I only sell the cryo treated ones.  I don't claim to understand it, I just have my theories.

As for measurement, just try to measure differences in outlets.  Very difficult.  You need to put some high-currents with very fast transients through them.  I don't know of any tool that will do this short of a high-power amplifier.  Even programmable loads will not do this well.  I suppose that you could put an outlet in series with a speaker cable and a 4-ohm load and play square-waves through it.....but the system needs to have B/W near 1MHz for meaningful results.

Besides, even if I could measure a difference, I could not prove that this is audible...  what's the use??</font>