Crossover frequency for Velodyne/Bowers & Wilkins

R

RJR

Audiophyte
Hi guys, I've just built a 5.1 home theatre in a 28 sq m/ 110 cu m room (domed ceiling) It consists of B&W 683's/HTM61S2/686S2's and Velodyne wi q 12 subwoofer (wired) with Denon X2200W avr. The physics and mathematics of acoustics/frequency/decibels etc eludes me but I'm trying to configure nonetheless based on trial and error (probably the best way anyway). I have a specific question on crossover frequency. The velodyne manual gives an example of calculation as follows
'If you don’t know the low frequency limit of your main speakers, use 80 Hz as the crossover
point (this happens to be the default on the AVR) . For example, the main speaker specs might include an entry similar to the following:
“3 dB down at 45 Hz
In this example, double the 45 Hz value and use the 90 Hz doubled-value as the crossover
frequency'
The B&W 683 manual shows frequency lower limit as -6b at 30 Hz. So should I ignore the Db drop difference (-3 example vs -6 actual) and use 2 x 30 = 60hz as the crossover- or is the rough calculation actually more complex?? And are the considerations different for different types/sources andsub types eg Bluray/DVD/Cd/Vinyl DTS/Stereo/Multi Channel/Xlassical/Pop/folk etc? Many thanks for any comments.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
80 is a good starting point for you I think. -6 is not -3dB in any case. 80hz is roughly where localization of the sub may start for you, but may not. Depends somewhat on where your sub's upper response is, not just the lower. Experiment above and below. I leave my crossovers in place for all content. It's mostly a preference thing if you're just doing it by ear; you'll need measuring gear otherwise.
 
Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
Easiest way to figure out the low frequency response of the towers is to just use a tone generator app and decrease the frequency until it starts audible dropping off.

80hz is a starting point, however, I’ve found I get much better blending between the speakers and sub at about 60hz in almost all cases. If the box tuning of your speakers is 45hz, the driver is going to be most efficient and have minimum motion at this point. It’s a myth that crossing over at 80hz somehow reduces power requirements from your avr. Most speakers display their lowest impedance (and consequently highest power requirements) from about 100hz to 2khz, and a good deal of content falls in this band. You get two huge spikes in impedance, one at the drivers resonant frequency, and one at the port tuning, very little power is actually required at these points.

I always run test tones and lightly feel/look at the woofer to see which point it reaches minimum excursion, wherever the box is tuned, the woofer should be almost still at that frequency. I then set that frequency as the crossover frequency, the effectiveness of the port should cover at least 10-20hz above and below its resonance, which works just fine with the 24dB/octave high pass in the avr. I’ve always had very good results doing this.

As always, it depends on the room and how the sub interacts. A higher xover might give you flatter bass, and so might a lower xover. The issue I have always run up against with 80hz xovers is that the ceilings of most rooms are 8’, giving you a boost centered at 70hz across the height of the room, since subs are generally placed on the floor, this sometimes has led to boomy mid bass, since speakers are usually elevated above the floor, it helps reduce this issue.

On the flip side, I’ve also seen it cause a big null at 80hz in some rooms, which is alleviated by using a subwoofer at as high as 100hz.

Just play around and listen, if 80hz sounds better than a lower frequency, go for it, if a lower xover sounds better, then do that. It’s really just sub, speaker, and room dependent, and in a way, another tool for dealing with room acoustics problems.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
killdozzer

killdozzer

Audioholic Samurai
When doing this for music, would you all leave your mains full range? Is there any gain in crossing some lows from the mains over to the sub/subs?
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
When doing this for music, would you all leave your mains full range? Is there any gain in crossing some lows from the mains over to the sub/subs?
I don't distinguish use "for music", all my speakers are set for bass management with a crossover, my subs handle the lows at all times.
 
killdozzer

killdozzer

Audioholic Samurai
I don't distinguish use "for music", all my speakers are set for bass management with a crossover, my subs handle the lows at all times.
Do mains always play full range in your systems? Do they have an easier job / perform better if you redirect some of the lows from the mains to the sub? Let's say they roll off at 60Hz but you cross them at 70 or 80. Is this ever done?
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Do mains always play full range in your systems? Do they have an easier job / perform better if you redirect some of the lows from the mains to the sub? Let's say they roll off at 60Hz but you cross them at 70 or 80. Is this ever done?
Mains never play full range in my systems except the two-ch systems since they don't have bass management. I'd cross them higher than 70 or 80 if their f3 is 60....

ps I take that "never" back a little bit, very occasionally I'll use a pure direct setting for comparison/testing.
 
Last edited:
agarwalro

agarwalro

Audioholic Ninja
The B&W 683 manual shows frequency lower limit as -6b at 30 Hz. So should I ignore the Db drop difference (-3 example vs -6 actual) and use 2 x 30 = 60hz as the crossover- or is the rough calculation actually more complex?? And are the considerations different for different types/sources andsub types eg Bluray/DVD/Cd/Vinyl DTS/Stereo/Multi Channel/Xlassical/Pop/folk etc? Many thanks for any comments.
Based on this review's measurements, the 683 can be okay with crossover as low as 50Hz. The center and surrounds, not so much.

Maybe start with 90Hz for 685 and experiment by lowering it in 5Hz steps. Don't go lower than 70Hz for center and 80Hz surrounds.
 
R

RJR

Audiophyte
Based on this review's measurements, the 683 can be okay with crossover as low as 50Hz. The center and surrounds, not so much.

Maybe start with 90Hz for 685 and experiment by lowering it in 5Hz steps. Don't go lower than 70Hz for center and 80Hz surrounds.
Many thanks for this and in particular the linked review. I'm a complete 'newbie' to this and only had the system for 48 hours, but have found 2 things that seem to support comments made in the review you linked. !) The 683 seems more than capable of handling bass down to 60hz crossover, and for me provides a more 'concise' sound than the sub. 2) The review comment on voice intelligibilty on HTM61 was enlightening - I played a dvd of Grand Canyon in IMAX that we bought some 10 years ago while visiting. The narrative voice was quite unclear, compared to the cheap Sony ht that came with my TV package. I thought it might be caused by age related hearing loss in the last year or two, and when I turned the volume up (+4-6db from default on centre HTM61 the issue was largely addressed. Will continue with testing/adjust/test loop. Fun!! Also the review commented on the power needed to drive the 683/HTM61. Does anyone see any issues with my Denon X2200W - specs say 95w per speaker at 8ohm (20hz - 20khz and 125kw per speaker at 6ohm(1khz)
 
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agarwalro

agarwalro

Audioholic Ninja
Also the review commented on the power needed to drive the 683/HTM61. Does anyone see any issues with my Denon X2200W - specs say 95w per speaker at 8ohm (20hz - 20khz and 125kw per speaker at 6ohm(1khz)
Initially, just be cognizant of the volume. High (but, not catastrophic) distortion manifests as "listener fatigue". If you find yourself turning the volume down because it sound jarring and then good at a lower volume, that is a symptom of pushing the amp to hard.

Keep the receiver well ventilated. If it shuts down, you've driven it into thermal protection. This is a red flag that you need more power.

If you get overzealous with the volume, a catastrophic failure could be a fried tweeter or amp that refuses to turn on (blinking red light).

The X2200 is pretty much a dead end in terms of adding an external amp. You'll need one with pre-outs, like the X3300 or higher.
 
Mitchibo

Mitchibo

Audioholic
I used to think it an anathema to change the xo from 80. Now I vary from 80 to 100. 60 seems weak.
 
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