Crossover for LFE channel?? - Denon 4306

[abetaque]

The Denon 4306 allows you to set a crossover value for each of the speakers, including the LFE. I understand that for the speakers other than the LFE, this is the value below which the sound will be sent to the LFE. However, it doesn't make sense to me to have a crossover for the LFE itself. What does this mean? And what should I set it to?

Thanks!

 

[mulester7]

The Denon 4306 allows you to set a crossover value for each of the speakers, including the LFE. I understand that for the speakers other than the LFE, this is the value below which the sound will be sent to the LFE. However, it doesn't make sense to me to have a crossover for the LFE itself. What does this mean? And what should I set it to?

Thanks!

.....Abetaque, the LFE going to the sub must be top-cut just like you're bottom-cutting the main's regiment individually....yes, there's active crossovers everywhere inside your receiver....most people here choose the top-cut for the sub at the LFE level, and set the crossover on the sub all the way up....this is fine, since rolloff is not nearly as crutial at sub level as it is with full-range speakers....along that line, let's say your sub signal sounds fine top-cut at 80 or 60 "even", great, you're home with LFE....but, if you determine what you want for the sub is a cut of 70, you set the LFE to 80, and trim the sub's crossover to 70....understand that if you choose 80 at the LFE output level, you can't get "over" 80 with the sub's crossover....in other words, if you set the LFE output at 80, you can't get 85 with the sub's crossover, only 80 or below, the LFE cut is predominant to anything down the line....if you wanted 90 as the sub's top-cut, you'd choose 90 at the LFE level....if you don't have a choice of 90 LFE, you'll have to choose 100 LFE, and trim to 90 with the sub's crossover....is this clear as mud?......

 

[abetaque]

Thanks! That helps a lot.

If I have all of the other speakers set to bottom cut at 80, does in then make sense to set the LFE at 90 or so, with the sub crossover set to 80 to allow for rollover from 80 to 90?

 

[mulester7]

Thanks! That helps a lot.

If I have all of the other speakers set to bottom cut at 80, does it then make sense to set the LFE at 90 or so, with the sub crossover set to 80 to allow for rollover from 80 to 90?

.....Abetaque, that would depend on the particular main's regiment speakers and sub you have....usually any 10 hz doubling like from 80 to 90 produces a "heavy" spot, with something like "mud" being the descriptive term....but, by all means try all combinations to find what pleases your ears as per your equipment....and damp those main's regiment speakers to take away any offensive brilliance on top of the highs you might get when you crank it pretty well......

.....edit....well, I just noticed you said the LFE cut to 90, and the sub cut to 80 with the main's regiment bottom-cut at 80....thumbs up....but....if 80 is what you want from the sub, you attain that by setting the LFE to 80....now....if an 80 top-cut was what I wanted for the sub, I personally would set the LFE to 80, AND the sub would be set to 80....that way you get both rolloffs, and clean is what we're after, even though you may not notice a difference at sub-level.....

 

[MACCA350]

Just remember that those Xovers are not brick walls, its where the roll off begins, and the slope is determined by the type of Xover used(usually 24db per octave)

This would mean that if you chose 80Hz for your mains they will be 24db down at 40Hz

If you chose 80Hz for your sub it will be 24Hz down at 160Hz so at 90Hz you'll probably be down by around 3db

So at 90Hz both mains and sub will be producing the same signal. Add room nodes and speaker capabilities(and I mean actual NOT specs) into the mix and things start getting difficult to judge, this is why placement and adjustment(phase, Xovers, etc) is critical to find what you feel is the right mix to get the bass response your after. Unless you have a spectrum analysis equipment or at minimum an SPL meter and Fq generator or even a calibration disc, you'll just need to play it by ear and find what you feel is right(Avia or DVE can help).

As mulester7 said, 80Hz is a good place to start.

cheers

 

[Nick250]

Thanks! That helps a lot.

If I have all of the other speakers set to bottom cut at 80, does in then make sense to set the LFE at 90 or so, with the sub crossover set to 80 to allow for rollover from 80 to 90?

abetaque, Mule has very good information. My take is a little different and would be put into place a basic setup first and then play around from there. Moose how about the following:


What follows is in general the standard bass management and IMO the starting point.

First, your 4306 has great bass management. Let it do all the bass management and take any control away from the sub. That means on your sub to "defeat" or turn off all controls. If can not defeat them set them as high they will go. The purpose of this is so the receiver has complete bass magement control and you do not duplicae settings.

There is a "standard" for bass management starting point (and often the ending point). That is, using your receiver, set all the speakers to small and then set all crossovers to 80Hz on all speakers as well.

As long as you have a good sub, I think if you follow the above for now and use to your sysem for bit while you get a good idea how it preforms. I have played around with different settings and have come back to the basics as outlined above.

Next step is to go to Advanced Bass Management skills with Mule.

Thems my thoughts, hopefully I won't get bawled out by Mule for jumping in here.

Regands, Nick

 

[abetaque]

Again - Thanks for all the great advice. I have a Velodyne SPL II-800, and it does have a crossover defeat. I think I'll just put everything at 80, and I'm sure that will be fine for me.

Your comment that the AVR-4306 has great bass management brings me to another question. Is there more to bass management than selecting Large vs. Small for the speakers and setting the crossover? I ask because - like many people on audioholics - I'm concerned about getting the best results out of my receiver once the new high definition sound formats come along for HD-DVD and Blu-Ray. The best I can tell, nobody is quite sure whether these will be able to be transmitted by PCM over HDMI 1.1 with bass management then applied by the receiver. So - the other option is to use the DACs and bass management on the player (and analog outputs). From what I read, most people don't think the DACs are a very big factor. That leaves the quality of the bass management on the player as the one uncertainty. Many people comment that the bass management on players (DVD and presumably HD-DVD/Blu Ray) is rarely decent. However, it seems like there's not much to it, so I don't quite follow why it wouldn't be good. If it's true that they're generally not very good, would the same be true on the high-end players (e.g., a Denon DVD-3910 or a future high definition comparable)?

 

[Nick250]

Again - Thanks for all the great advice. I have a Velodyne SPL II-800, and it does have a crossover defeat. I think I'll just put everything at 80, and I'm sure that will be fine for me.

Good. And setting speakers to small is the way I do it.

Your comment that the AVR-4306 has great bass management brings me to another question. Is there more to bass management than selecting Large vs. Small for the speakers and setting the crossover?

IMO thats usally it. The much more important factors are speakers and room acoustics. That's the real foundation of the sound in one's listening room.

I ask because - like many people on audioholics - I'm concerned about getting the best results out of my receiver once the new high definition sound formats come along for HD-DVD and Blu-Ray. The best I can tell, nobody is quite sure whether these will be able to be transmitted by PCM over HDMI 1.1 with bass management then applied by the receiver. So - the other option is to use the DACs and bass management on the player (and analog outputs). From what I read, most people don't think the DACs are a very big factor. That leaves the quality of the bass management on the player as the one uncertainty. Many people comment that the bass management on players (DVD and presumably HD-DVD/Blu Ray) is rarely decent. However, it seems like there's not much to it, so I don't quite follow why it wouldn't be good. If it's true that they're generally not very good, would the same be true on the high-end players (e.g., a Denon DVD-3910 or a future high definition comparable)?

IMO at this point, DACs, expensive DVD players etc hardly merit much discussion. Don't worry, because IMO the sound between them is indistinguishable. As mentioned earlier, the ball game for the best sound is all about speakers and the room they are in.

Nick

 

[mulester7]

.....Abetaque, if I had a system like yours, I would turn off the sub, turn the main's regiment up loud, and see how low the main's regiment was good to, using the small-to-large adjustment....only then, would I bring the sub into the mix....a sub is supposed to be an extension of the main's regiment, and should never be in the center ring at the bigtop circus......

 

[mulester7]

Thems my thoughts, hopefully I won't get bawled out by Mule for jumping in here.

Regards, Nick

.....Nick, I don't understand why I miss certain posts....you know I think it's great for all angles to be discussed....

 

[Tomorrow]

.....Abetaque, that would depend on the particular main's regiment speakers and sub you have....usually any 10 hz doubling like from 80 to 90 produces a "heavy" spot, with something like "mud" being the descriptive term....but, by all means try all combinations to find what pleases your ears as per your equipment....and damp those main's regiment speakers to take away any offensive brilliance on top of the highs you might get when you crank it pretty well......

.....edit....well, I just noticed you said the LFE cut to 90, and the sub cut to 80 with the main's regiment bottom-cut at 80....thumbs up....but....if 80 is what you want from the sub, you attain that by setting the LFE to 80....now....if an 80 top-cut was what I wanted for the sub, I personally would set the LFE to 80, AND the sub would be set to 80....that way you get both rolloffs, and clean is what we're after, even though you may not notice a difference at sub-level.....

Okay...just when I thought I finally understood this.....

Mulester7 and others...you're talking about cutting (crossing) "LFE" at whatever frequency. Another involving thread recently discussed the difference between LFE and redirected bass. My understanding is that LFE is an entirely separate and discrete signal that your receiver (or DVD player) sends to the sub (if so set). As on my Yammie RX-V2500, my options with LFE are NONE, BOTH, or SUB. Your sub either gets it or it doesn't.

Further, your low frequency (non-LFE) information is what gets crossed at the receiver. That's where your xover settings come in to cut your signal at the mains and (ALSO) send this redirected bass info to your sub. That is "bass management"...not LFE management.

Kindly re-correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[billy p]

Rj..

I've read all those threads of which one I started and I'm not I'm sure I'm further ahead!! LOL

 

[abetaque]

Just to add one more variable and make this even more confusing....

My rear speakers are small, so their crossover is set high (120). My front speakers are pretty big, so their crossover is set lower (80). So what do I set the LFE crossover at? If I set it to 80 to match the front speakers, won't I have a dead zone between 80 and 120 for the rear speakers? Or is this what the post above is getting at, that the LFE crossover will only affect signals sent through the LFE channel and not bass that's sent to the sub from the other channels as part of bass management?

 

[mulester7]

Just to add one more variable and make this even more confusing....

My rear speakers are small, so their crossover is set high (120). My front speakers are pretty big, so their crossover is set lower (80). So what do I set the LFE crossover at? If I set it to 80 to match the front speakers, won't I have a dead zone between 80 and 120 for the rear speakers? Or is this what the post above is getting at, that the LFE crossover will only affect signals sent through the LFE channel and not bass that's sent to the sub from the other channels as part of bass management?

.....Abetaque, and RJBudz, I don't have a receiver, but I'm experimenting lately in this area with the system I do have....Abetaque, with the question you've just presented, I would honor the front soundstage being as seamless as possible....if your front mains are bottom-cut at 80, I would want the sub or LFE set at 80....it wouldn't matter to me that the surrounds are set small at 120....surrounds widen the front soundstage and bring it somewhat closer....but, all speakers and receivers and amps are different....I would say work things to what sounds best to the owner of the equipment, you....I jumped in there and tried to help, but I really need to let the receiver hawks at this site help you further......

 

[Tomorrow]

I've read all those threads of which one I started and I'm not I'm sure I'm further ahead!! LOL

LOL, I think we have the right scoop on this one...finally. LFE is discrete from low frequency and the Rx xover controls the lf, not the LFE.

I STILL yearn for the old, golden stereo days of 2.0. At least ya didn't have to be an electrical engineer. (I just came out of the Bitstream vs. PCM thread! Eek.)

 

[mulester7]

LOL, I think we have the right scoop on this one...finally. LFE is discrete from low frequency and the Rx xover controls the lf, not the LFE

.....question, RJ....when you are adjusting the large-to-small of your speakers, does this effect the LFE setting?....or is the LFE only changable by choosing 100, 80, 60, etc?....and let's cover bass management, too, I guess....when you are adjusting the large-to-small of your speakers, and let's say you end up at 86, does the sub automatically somehow get 86 down as a signal?....probably not on that last one since the speakers are set individually....hmmm........

 

[Tomorrow]

Just to add one more variable and make this even more confusing....

My rear speakers are small, so their crossover is set high (120). My front speakers are pretty big, so their crossover is set lower (80). So what do I set the LFE crossover at? If I set it to 80 to match the front speakers, won't I have a dead zone between 80 and 120 for the rear speakers? Or is this what the post above is getting at, that the LFE crossover will only affect signals sent through the LFE channel and not bass that's sent to the sub from the other channels as part of bass management?

Abetaque, there is no LFE crossover. The only sounds crossed over are the low frequency signals from the main audio track...which is distinct and different from the LFE track. The LFE is a discrete channel in Dolby Digital, DTS, etc. It's the .1 in the 5.1 (or 6.1 or 7.1). It will go to the sub IF you set your Denon to SUB ONLY (recommended) or BOTH. Only select BOTH if your mains can dig down to sub-30Hz (not likely). Keep your settings as you have. That is, xover at 80 on the fronts and 120 on the rears. The Denon will do the rest. The low frequencies are not easily localized...that is, even tho' a low frequency signal may be sent to the sub that would have gone to the surrounds or rears, you can't easily tell where the low frequency sound is coming from. (Pardon ending a sentence with a preposition, lol. ) Keep in mind the center and mains take the bulk of the audio load. The surround and rear speakers are more 'effects' speakers, and will rarely get that low of a signal.

Yeah, I know...screwy, ain't it?!

 

[Tomorrow]

.....question, RJ....when you are adjusting the large-to-small of your speakers, does this effect the LFE setting?....or is the LFE only changable by choosing 100, 80, 60, etc?....and let's cover bass management, too, I guess....when you are adjusting the large-to-small of your speakers, and let's say you end up at 86, does the sub automatically somehow get 86 down as a signal?....probably not on that last one since the speakers are set individually....hmmm........

Mulester7...I'll see if I can keep this brief...as I'm only a recent convert to the truth of it all. LOL!

The LFE setting either is or isn't...there is no crossover. When a DD receiver is set up, you tell it to send the .1 channel (LFE) to SUB, or to BOTH the sub and mains (if you have full range mains..sub-30Hz), or, if you have no sub and no full range mains, set it to NONE.

But in the 'bass management' end of things, the receiver crossover becomes important with low frequency main channel audio signals (not the Low Frequency Effects signals). These signals too, can dig deep into your sub's abilities.

Setting the speakers to large or small.... If you set your speakers to large (and LFE to SUB), a full range signal (non-LFE) will be sent to them. If you set your speakers to small, then the crossover limits the signal to whatever it is set at. (Damn these prepositions. ) As stated earlier, the crossover is a slope, not a brick wall. The bass management crossover feature of the receiver sends all main audio frequencies below the crossover to the sub. (We're NOT talking about LFE, now.) You can set your speakers to 'large' (full range), AND with a crossover setting of 80Hz, e.g. (So your sub gets all signals below 80Hz.)

A receiver setup example then......
LFE --> SUB
Speaker Setting (front) --> large
Speaker Setting (surround) --> small
Bass Management Crossover (front) --> 80
Bass Management Crossover (surround) --> 120

Result....
The sub plays all LFE signals and main audio low frequencies below 80Hz, AND all signals that are below 120Hz that are sent to the surrounds.
The mains play all main audio signals to their capability.* (See below)
The surrounds play main audio signals over 120Hz.

Vewy, vewy few speakers are true 'full range' speakers. This is why Gene, Clint and other experts in the industry recommend setting all speakers to 'small'. It's a rule of thumb that may be broken, for certain...especially if you prefer the sound of the setup with the mains set to 'large'. But for most speakers, they are acting inefficiently and sometimes straining to reproduce the low end signals.

Final note...
You can set the speakers to 'small' if they are decent range speakers, and cut them at 60 or even 40Hz. The sub will take over below that setting. But the speakers only get full-range signals when set to large.

Got it? Or did I lose ya? Cwazy stuff this New Audio...kinda like New Math. 'Tis not easy on us old stereo guys.

 

[abetaque]

This brings me full circle to my original question. The LFE does have a crossover value on my receiver. The earlier discussion said this is a "top cut" as opposed to a "bottom" cut that applies in the case of all other speakers. So what is it top-cutting.... the LFE signal? And if the small speakers are set to 120, it still seems to me that I'm left with a dead zone between 80 and 120.

Thanks for your patience!

 

[Tomorrow]

This brings me full circle to my original question. The LFE does have a crossover value on my receiver. The earlier discussion said this is a "top cut" as opposed to a "bottom" cut that applies in the case of all other speakers. So what is it top-cutting.... the LFE signal? And if the small speakers are set to 120, it still seems to me that I'm left with a dead zone between 80 and 120.

Thanks for your patience!

You may be confusing Speaker Level Bass Management with LFE. If you set your Denon to xover at 120 for those speakers, then that is the "top cut" of the sub for those speakers. You have a nice feature on that Denon that lets you do this with all speakers...to 'individualize' the speaker/sub xover. 120Hz becomes your "top cut" for the sub and the "bottom cut" for the rear speakers. My Yamahaha only has one available crossover value for all speakers. This has nothing to do with "LFE".

There is one caveat here. A powered sub has a built-in crossover as well. It is recommended that you set it to maximum when you are crossing over using the receiver's bass management system and line level (as oppposed to speaker level) inputs. That way the rx controls what the sub plays, including the full LFE signal.