M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Field Marshall
Maybe in a healthy, fully vaxxed & boosted person, the body's own immune response reduces/eliminates the virus at a rate that renders the boost offered by Paxlovid redundant.
I had the same thought.

I've also wondered if the data for Paxlovid use in healthy/vaxxed people was gathered before the BA.4 and BA.5 variants were common, in which case the results might not apply to these variants (I haven't taken the time to dig into it, so I'm not sure).

The "Report and Support" screening tool discussed in the cbc article sounds like an improvement compared to what we have here (nothing), but it seems like they should call everyone, not just those who are initially determined to be eligible.

In my area there are not nearly as many drive up testing locations as there were before, and a fair number of pharmacies were sold out of at home tests.

Once I tested positive, getting through to my doctor also involved some rigmarole because my calls and messages were initially routed through an RN who basically gave me the brush off.
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Field Marshall
This makes me somewhat uneasy about getting back into running and working out after COVID. My plan is to start very slow and quit right away if anything doesn't feel right. I have no history of heart problems, but I don't want to take too many risks at this point.

I wish there was some better data on the risks of cardiovascular problems. To some extent it feels like I'm flying blind.

>>>In one study this year, researchers used records from the US Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) to estimate how often COVID-19 leads to cardiovascular problems. They found that people who had had the disease faced substantially increased risks for 20 cardiovascular conditions — including potentially catastrophic problems such as heart attacks and strokes — in the year after infection with the coronavirus SARS-CoV-2. Researchers say that these complications can happen even in people who seem to have completely recovered from a mild infection.

Some smaller studies have mirrored these findings, but others find lower rates of complications. With millions or perhaps even billions of people having been infected with SARS-CoV-2, clinicians are wondering whether the pandemic will be followed by a cardiovascular aftershock. Meanwhile, researchers are trying to understand who is most at risk of these heart-related problems, how long the risk persists and what causes these symptoms.

It’s a gaping hole in an important area of public health, says Katz. “We don’t understand if this changes the lifelong trajectory for risk of a heart attack or stroke or other cardiac events — we just don’t know that.” Here, Nature looks at the questions that scientists are asking and the answers they’ve uncovered so far. <<<

 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Ninja
This makes me somewhat uneasy about getting back into running and working out after COVID. My plan is to start very slow and quit right away if anything doesn't feel right. I have no history of heart problems, but I don't want to take too many risks at this point.

I wish there was some better data on the risks of cardiovascular problems. To some extent it feels like I'm flying blind.

>>>In one study this year, researchers used records from the US Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) to estimate how often COVID-19 leads to cardiovascular problems. They found that people who had had the disease faced substantially increased risks for 20 cardiovascular conditions — including potentially catastrophic problems such as heart attacks and strokes — in the year after infection with the coronavirus SARS-CoV-2. Researchers say that these complications can happen even in people who seem to have completely recovered from a mild infection.

Some smaller studies have mirrored these findings, but others find lower rates of complications. With millions or perhaps even billions of people having been infected with SARS-CoV-2, clinicians are wondering whether the pandemic will be followed by a cardiovascular aftershock. Meanwhile, researchers are trying to understand who is most at risk of these heart-related problems, how long the risk persists and what causes these symptoms.

It’s a gaping hole in an important area of public health, says Katz. “We don’t understand if this changes the lifelong trajectory for risk of a heart attack or stroke or other cardiac events — we just don’t know that.” Here, Nature looks at the questions that scientists are asking and the answers they’ve uncovered so far. <<<

Then there is the risk of health issues due to too little physical activity, and that has much research available for a long time.
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
This makes me somewhat uneasy about getting back into running and working out after COVID. My plan is to start very slow and quit right away if anything doesn't feel right. I have no history of heart problems, but I don't want to take too many risks at this point.

I wish there was some better data on the risks of cardiovascular problems. To some extent it feels like I'm flying blind.

>>>In one study this year, researchers used records from the US Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) to estimate how often COVID-19 leads to cardiovascular problems. They found that people who had had the disease faced substantially increased risks for 20 cardiovascular conditions — including potentially catastrophic problems such as heart attacks and strokes — in the year after infection with the coronavirus SARS-CoV-2. Researchers say that these complications can happen even in people who seem to have completely recovered from a mild infection.

Some smaller studies have mirrored these findings, but others find lower rates of complications. With millions or perhaps even billions of people having been infected with SARS-CoV-2, clinicians are wondering whether the pandemic will be followed by a cardiovascular aftershock. Meanwhile, researchers are trying to understand who is most at risk of these heart-related problems, how long the risk persists and what causes these symptoms.

It’s a gaping hole in an important area of public health, says Katz. “We don’t understand if this changes the lifelong trajectory for risk of a heart attack or stroke or other cardiac events — we just don’t know that.” Here, Nature looks at the questions that scientists are asking and the answers they’ve uncovered so far. <<<

Just hope you get back to full health safely.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
The Lady and I pulled a bout with the Vid after we went to see Chappelle.
I barely felt anything. Then she got sick. SICK sick. Her first test was neg, but then she tested again a few days later and popped posi.
I didn't even have a fever that I know of, and I did check. I just had a slight scratchy throat and a bit of head congestion.
I came down with it first, probably 3 days after the show, and am feeling pretty solid now. She started not feeling well about 1 week after the show and she's just coming out of the initial worst part.

Wheee.
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
This makes me somewhat uneasy about getting back into running and working out after COVID. My plan is to start very slow and quit right away if anything doesn't feel right. I have no history of heart problems, but I don't want to take too many risks at this point.

I wish there was some better data on the risks of cardiovascular problems. To some extent it feels like I'm flying blind.

>>>In one study this year, researchers used records from the US Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) to estimate how often COVID-19 leads to cardiovascular problems. They found that people who had had the disease faced substantially increased risks for 20 cardiovascular conditions — including potentially catastrophic problems such as heart attacks and strokes — in the year after infection with the coronavirus SARS-CoV-2. Researchers say that these complications can happen even in people who seem to have completely recovered from a mild infection.

Some smaller studies have mirrored these findings, but others find lower rates of complications. With millions or perhaps even billions of people having been infected with SARS-CoV-2, clinicians are wondering whether the pandemic will be followed by a cardiovascular aftershock. Meanwhile, researchers are trying to understand who is most at risk of these heart-related problems, how long the risk persists and what causes these symptoms.

It’s a gaping hole in an important area of public health, says Katz. “We don’t understand if this changes the lifelong trajectory for risk of a heart attack or stroke or other cardiac events — we just don’t know that.” Here, Nature looks at the questions that scientists are asking and the answers they’ve uncovered so far. <<<

I read the article - not comforting, at all. I would imagine that one's pre-existing state of health has a major role to play in post-COVID cardiovascular risk.

As a regular runner, I'm in pretty good health and over the last couple months, I've really ramped it up. I'm entering a 10K race on August 21st and my goal is to do it in under 50 minutes. I haven't contracted COVID yet and I just hope that I don't get it within the next couple of weeks. That would be very disappointing.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
The Lady and I pulled a bout with the Vid after we went to see Chappelle.
I barely felt anything. Then she got sick. SICK sick. Her first test was neg, but then she tested again a few days later and popped posi.
I didn't even have a fever that I know of, and I did check. I just had a slight scratchy throat and a bit of head congestion.
I came down with it first, probably 3 days after the show, and am feeling pretty solid now. She started not feeling well about 1 week after the show and she's just coming out of the initial worst part.

Wheee.
I got my second negative test yesterday. The lady tested too, still +, but she hasn't even been 5 days since her temp went back to normal. I think she's skipping today and will test again tomorrow. *fingers crossed

In terms of long term issues, I'm breathing pretty good and any remaining chest or other respiratory congestion is dissipating as I would expect any head cold to do: effectively today I am not even coughing up any phlegm.
She has reported some loss of taste, but not complete; says it's like a picture with missing colors. Otherwise, she seemingly has no other lingering symptoms.

As I had mentioned somewhere previously, I am vaxed and boosted... she has not taken a vaccine.
 
Mikado463

Mikado463

Audioholic Ninja
I got my second negative test yesterday. The lady tested too, still +, but she hasn't even been 5 days since her temp went back to normal. I think she's skipping today and will test again tomorrow. *fingers crossed

In terms of long term issues, I'm breathing pretty good and any remaining chest or other respiratory congestion is dissipating as I would expect any head cold to do: effectively today I am not even coughing up any phlegm.
She has reported some loss of taste, but not complete; says it's like a picture with missing colors. Otherwise, she seemingly has no other lingering symptoms.

As I had mentioned somewhere previously, I am vaxed and boosted... she has not taken a vaccine.
interesting, what you have stated is almost a mirror image of what my wife and I went through 3 weeks ago. She got a sinus infection out of it and like you I got a head cold that ran its course. All good now, except for a meniscus tear in my right knee, obviously not related to COVID :oops:
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
interesting, what you have stated is almost a mirror image of what my wife and I went through 3 weeks ago. She got a sinus infection out of it and like you I got a head cold that ran its course. All good now, except for a meniscus tear in my right knee, obviously not related to COVID :oops:
You haven't heard of Covid Knee? :p
I blew my Rt Medial Meniscus a while back. That sucked. I had squatted down to change Discs in my CD Changer. When I went to stand back up: *POP!
My Wife (at the time (different "The Lady")) was in another room and she came out after hearing that pop, asking what that was.
That was no fun, not even the big-boy vicodin after the arthroscopic surgery to clean up the tear. I had a good surgeon and followed all the protocols for rehab: still took well over a year before it felt solid again. I don't know how athletes do it!

Good luck with that, Mikado!
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Interesting. Thanks for posting it. This paper identifies a region of the coronavirus spike protein that is conserved in both SARS-Cov-1 and -2. That could be useful if this finding could be developed into a future vaccine.

The major question, not addressed by this paper: Can this "broadly conserved epitope (a subsection of a protein) of the spike protein" remain conserved after large numbers of people become vaccinated with vaccines directed against this epitope? As we've seen in the last 2½ years, SARS-CoV-2 has shown surprising ability to rapidly mutate. Although this hasn't been conclusively shown, it's as if the virus is trying to mutate enough to partially avoid the immunizing effect of the first generation vaccines. Can the virus do the same in people immunized by this broadly conserved spike protein epitope? Or does vaccinating with this new target generate longer lasting immunity?

The 2nd & 3rd paragraphs of the paper's discussion section mentions this as a possibility. But the data in this paper cannot address this critical question. It will require a lot more work before this question can be answered.

For commercial reasons, it's kind of late for new Covid-19 treatments. The market is already saturated with first generation vaccines, small molecule anti-viral drugs (can be taken as pills), and anti-viral monoclonal antibodies (must be given by IV infusion).
 
Last edited:
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I have not posted for a while on this thread. The main reason is that I had no clue where we were headed like everyone else. The beginning of the pandemic could, and was, projected with some accuracy.

The last time I posted I was of the opinion we were transitioning to the endemic phase. I was sure wrong about that, and so were most. Unfortunately what has befallen us is an evolving pandemic. This presents huge challenges, and a high degree of uncertainty.

The reason for this, is that this virus has evolved rapidly, and developed highly significant immune invasion from both natural infection and vaccine induced immunity. At first each variant appeared to trade virulence for transmissibility. This is the usual course of events. However B.1.1.529 shows not only the most escape but seems to be causing more prolonged illness, and may be more serious disease. The B.1.5 variants are dominant now. The bad news is that recurrent infections are now being seen after 90 days from natural infection and vaccination.

The good news is that most patients are staying out of hospital, although this is slowly trending upwards. ICU cases are on the low side and relatively stable. The gap between the vaccinated and unvaccinated has narrowed, because virtually everyone has encountered this virus now. So people either got vaccinated the easy way or the hard way. This infection has resulted in a significant increase in myocardial infarction and stroke. But there is a small but significant decrease in that incidence in those who have had at least three doses of vaccine.

The other good news is that there are better treatments with some caveats. These include better antibody treatments and oral anti virals.

Recurrent infections do increase the incidence of long Covid. About 1 in 8 patients now seem to experience long Covid in one form or another. This has great economic implications.

Now I will change gear and tell you of our personal experience. There are generally broadly applicable lessons in this.

My wife who has no co-morbidities, attended her bridge group 15 days ago. An attendee was coughing, and told members not to worry as he had tested negative for Covid. Well within 48 hours 7 attendees developed Covid. He tested positive three days later. My wife developed a slight sore throat the evening of the next day.
The next day she was significantly unwell, with sore throat and bad cough. She was negative by antigen test, but went for a PCR. She was negative the next day by antigen, but was notified her PCR was positive the next day and her antigen test turned positive that day. She has had a rough course, with severe cough being the prominent symptom. Her sore throat passed fairly quickly, but she still has some nasal congestion and a severe cough. Her first negative antigen test was the eleventh day and has remained negative since. This is now her fifteenth day. I have remained free of symptoms and my antigen tests have been persistently negative. We now know of a total of nine individuals who were infected from that one proband. There are almost certainly more. All of these we know of were fully vaccinated. Both my wife and I have had four doses of the Moderna vaccine. We both had our last immunizations mid March. So my wife was about four and a half months post her fourth vaccination. So, that corroborates that this variant has highly significant vaccine escape after 90 days. We have followed others who were infected and they have had a similar relatively severe course.

This brings up the use of Paxlovid. The advice was wife received from the local health provider was against taking the drug, but would provide it if she insisted. The reason seemed reasonable at the time. The first was that patients taking the drug, all had severe diarrhea during the course. I should add our next door neighbors, who are in their thirties and have a ten month old son, had Covid-around a month ago, despite full vaccination. They took Paxlovid, but not the baby. They both had quite a severe course, especially the baby. Their course was significantly shorter than my wife's. They did have severe diarrhea.

The other reason that the advice against Paxlovid, was that my wife is on medication where there were significant drug interactions with Paxlovid. I would have also, if I needed the drug. So her drug regime would have needed significant modification. However, hard data as to how this should be done is virtually non existent. I am not aware of any pharmokinetic studies giving hard data on how to make these modifications. The fact remains though, that Paxlovid does seem to shorten symptom durations, but from what I can find, rebound viral shedding of the type suffered by Dr. Fauci and President Biden are actually common and probably the rule.
This not withstanding, on yesterday's JAMA Covid update, the recommendation to proscribe Paxlovid, for those over 50 was strong. But I return to the problem, that data on how to do that safely is sparse. I can well understand the reluctance of prescribers to prescribe this drug without a moments thought.

So those are my observations on actually seeing this infection up close.

Where do we go from here? This is were it gets even murkier. I feel they are good reasons for significant concern. My biggest concern is co-infections this winter. The next is the rapid, and uncertain evolution of this virus, especially its immune evasion, both natural and by vaccination. At this time I am convinced both are highly significant and of great concern. The antigenic drift is so fast we will never be able to modify and produce vaccines fast enough to keep pace. Even if we could, is it really practical to immunize the whole population every three months, to say nothing of the cost? The hope is a universal Sars vaccine. If this is possible and could be made available that probably would end the pandemic, until that point I see no end to this, just an evolving pandemic that will continue to bring unpleasant surprise. It would seem any prospect of a universal vaccine is three years away at least.

The next concern is data showing that long Covid affects are larger percentage of individuals the more often they have a symptomatic case. Long Covid by the most reliable estimates seem to affect about one in eight individuals contracting Covid. This has enormous economic implications. There was recent paper showing a small increase in heart attack and stroke in survivors over 50. There was a small silver lining here, showing that full vaccination reduced this risk of stroke and heart attack, by a small but significant margin. These issues alone show that we can not advise individuals not to avoid infection and symptomatic people to isolate themselves. Also public health have not done enough to inform people that there is a 48 to 72 hour gap from symptoms to the home antigen test turning positive and that they are highly infectious during this period. So the advice should be it isolate for 72 hours if you have any upper, or lower respiratory infection and have at least two negative antigen tests. Again this issue has significant economic impact.

The final issue is this current winter and co-infections, especially influenza. We know that co-infection with Covid and influenza is bad. Lock down and isolation has also reduced the spread of all other respiratory viruses and resulted in a lowering of herd immunity to these infections. Australia has had a bad influenza season in this year's southern winter. So I think it is vitally important everyone gets influenza vaccination starting next next month, or when this year's influenza vaccine becomes available. Also follow guidelines for the uptake of any new polyvalent Covid vaccines, that become available. It is uncertain when this will be. Projections are anywhere from the end of next month to the end of December.

I wish I had better news, but that is the way I see it. People are done with Covid, but Covid is not done with us!
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Our next door neighbor to the west came down with Covid yesterday. He is quite sick. He works at MSP so likely was infected there. So far his wife and the two daughters are OK. At my suggestion they contacted their physician to get an prescription for Paxlovid. That was after my wife's experience I recommended that. She is testing negative, but still unwell, with severe bouts of coughing at day 16 of the illness.

The UK authorities today gave approval for the use of the new Moderna bi-valent vaccine which combats the original and Omicron variant. It will be issued to those over 50, and those with immune compromise. They have ordered 13 million doses, and will order another 13 million from Pfizer if that vaccine passes studies. The UK is the first to approve a bi-valent vaccine to target Omicron. They plan to combine this with the fall influenza campaign.

So it seems these new vaccines are arriving sooner than I thought.
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Field Marshall
I read the article - not comforting, at all. I would imagine that one's pre-existing state of health has a major role to play in post-COVID cardiovascular risk.

As a regular runner, I'm in pretty good health and over the last couple months, I've really ramped it up. I'm entering a 10K race on August 21st and my goal is to do it in under 50 minutes. I haven't contracted COVID yet and I just hope that I don't get it within the next couple of weeks. That would be very disappointing.
I've started some very modest running and working out. So far so good. COVID seems to have had little effect on my (admittedly modest) strength, but I'm not back to 100% on running.

Being in shape seems to help but there are a few cases that I do not understand:

>>>We present a case of severe dysautonomia in a previously healthy 27-year-old runner. About five weeks after her initial mild COVID-19 infection, the patient began to develop weakness, which progressed into severe post-exertional fatigue, slowed cognition, headaches, blurred vision and generalized body aches. She also endorsed palpitations, especially when getting up from a seated or lying position as well as with mild exertion. She became reliant on her husband for help with her activities of daily living. Exam was significant for orthostasis; laboratory workup unremarkable. Over the following months, the patient’s symptoms have improved slowly with fluid and sodium intake, compression stockings and participating in a graduated exercise program.<<<

 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Field Marshall
This brings up the use of Paxlovid. The advice was wife received from the local health provider was against taking the drug, but would provide it if she insisted. The reason seemed reasonable at the time. The first was that patients taking the drug, all had severe diarrhea during the course. I should add our next door neighbors, who are in their thirties and have a ten month old son, had Covid-around a month ago, despite full vaccination. They took Paxlovid, but not the baby. They both had quite a severe course, especially the baby. Their course was significantly shorter than my wife's. They did have severe diarrhea.
My wife and I both took Paxlovid. She had diarrhea one day, then it went away. I had it starting the second day after I started on Paxlovid and it continued until I stopped taking it. I didn't take the last day of Paxlovid because I was so tired of the sides.

We both experienced "Paxlovid mouth" as well (a bad taste in the mouth). This didn't bother me that much. Strong mints hid it reasonably well. It bothered my wife more, but of course I really don't know what her experience was.

My wife recovered a little sooner than I did, but I have no idea if that was because she took the full course of Paxlovid. I had a slight sore throat and cough for a while after I tested negative, but my wife had no lingering symptoms to speak of.

I certainly hope your wife fully recovers soon.
 
D

Dude#1279435

Audioholic Samurai
My boss had covid for the second time. Vomiting and fatigue. This is 2+ weeks with it. He'd gotten the first Pfizer booster and was vomiting all over amongst other symptoms. So not sure what he's going to do. I believe he was in bed 20 hours a day sometimes. Another boss and her husband are in their early 60s and had gotten covid and were out 20-30 days while being in bed literally all the time. They lost I think 20-30 pounds which was beneficial in their cases. With the latter I'm excited to be returning to the state fair but also apprehensive with crowds 100,000. I hope it goes smoothly but who knows.

For the second booster I went with Moderna since the Pfizer gave me a lot of fatigue for two days. The usual sore shoulder, but maybe less fatigue this time.
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
My wife recovered a little sooner than I did, but I have no idea if that was because she took the full course of Paxlovid. I had a slight sore throat and cough for a while after I tested negative, but my wife had no lingering symptoms to speak of.
Your wife had COVID. You had man-COVID. ;)
 
cpp

cpp

Audioholic Samurai
You haven't heard of Covid Knee? :p
I blew my Rt Medial Meniscus a while back. That sucked. I had squatted down to change Discs in my CD Changer. When I went to stand back up: *POP!
My Wife (at the time (different "The Lady")) was in another room and she came out after hearing that pop, asking what that was.
That was no fun, not even the big-boy vicodin after the arthroscopic surgery to clean up the tear. I had a good surgeon and followed all the protocols for rehab: still took well over a year before it felt solid again. I don't know how athletes do it!

Good luck with that, Mikado!
Went through the very same thing back in 2013. Wife and I doing outside Christmas decorations and all I did was bend down on my left knee and POP. Same type of surgery, went in a 6am and I was home at 10:25. He trimmed and cleaned up the tear and told he will see me down the road. Still doing ok.
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Field Marshall
Interesting. Thanks for posting it. This paper identifies a region of the coronavirus spike protein that is conserved in both SARS-Cov-1 and -2. That could be useful if this finding could be developed into a future vaccine.

The major question, not addressed by this paper: Can this "broadly conserved epitope (a subsection of a protein) of the spike protein" remain conserved after large numbers of people become vaccinated with vaccines directed against this epitope? As we've seen in the last 2½ years, SARS-CoV-2 has shown surprising ability to rapidly mutate. Although this hasn't been conclusively shown, it's as if the virus is trying to mutate enough to partially avoid the immunizing effect of the first generation vaccines. Can the virus do the same in people immunized by this broadly conserved spike protein epitope? Or does vaccinating with this new target generate longer lasting immunity?

The 2nd & 3rd paragraphs of the paper's discussion section mentions this as a possibility. But the data in this paper cannot address this critical question. It will require a lot more work before this question can be answered.

For commercial reasons, it's kind of late for new Covid-19 treatments. The market is already saturated with first generation vaccines, small molecule anti-viral drugs (can be taken as pills), and anti-viral monoclonal antibodies (must be given by IV infusion).
It’s surprising to me that the virus has been able to evolve to avoid neutralizing antibodies that bind to the RBD without losing its ability to bind to the ACE2 receptor. Based on what I’d read earlier in the pandemic I had thought the virus would run out of mutations that both evade immunity and retain ACE2 binding quite quickly but this does not seem to be the case (not to mention mutations that would prevent replication of the virus).

I’m not an expert, of course, but the virus seems like it’s an evil Houdini of sorts
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
It’s surprising to me that the virus has been able to evolve to avoid neutralizing antibodies that bind to the RBD without losing its ability to bind to the ACE2 receptor. Based on what I’d read earlier in the pandemic I had thought the virus would run out of mutations that both evade immunity and retain ACE2 binding quite quickly but this does not seem to be the case (not to mention mutations that would prevent replication of the virus).

I’m not an expert, of course, but the virus seems like it’s an evil Houdini of sorts
This virus is full of surprises, and has re-written the book on pandemics. The virus has been unusually unstable, to the point that currently their is no realistic chance of brining this pandemic to an end. One of the reasons it is so evil, is that it is a virus attacking the vascular system. We have never dealt with this before. This makes long term projections of its impact to public health virtually impossible. However there is cautionary data out there already.

As I said the earlier part of the pandemic could be reasonably well forecast, and was in many ways. Now we have been humbled by evolving events, firm prognostication is unwise. This remains a serious unstable pandemic and you can not say any more then that with confidence.
 
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