Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
The German health minister is under fire for laying on the line today. He said by Spring everyone, will be vaccinated, recovered from Covid-19 or dead.
If it were all over by this Spring, it would be a miracle. I'm more inclined to believe it might be over by the Spring — 15 years from now.

We're in this for the long haul. Might as well get used to it. No matter how many people pitch a fit, just because they don't like it, won't make it any less real.
 
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Replicant 7

Replicant 7

Audioholic Samurai
Haven't most already taken shots all the way back to grade school? Flu shots? I've had those shots where you went to your local health unit back in the '60s and they popped you with this gun looking thing and you got this lil sore on your upper arm. It fell off after a while. Than it left this lil raspberry round looking thing on your upper arm for the rest of your life. I've taken shots in my knees, shoulders, needles long as 6".
 
G

Golfx

Full Audioholic
You are discussing the small pox vaccination. One of the all time immulogical successes of modern scientific medicine. Ridding the world of near certain death from small pox. Simply a matter of persistent application to achieve world wide herd immunity. Another wonderful success story is the polio vaccine. Today our world isn’t ruled by logic and resulting studies. But instead social media and the love affairs of influencers.


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Replicant 7

Replicant 7

Audioholic Samurai
You are discussing the small pox vaccination. One of the all time immulogical successes of modern scientific medicine. Ridding the world of near certain death from small pox. Simply a matter of persistent application to achieve world wide herd immunity. Another wonderful success story is the polio vaccine. Today our world isn’t ruled by logic and resulting studies. But instead social media and the love affairs of influencers.


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Thanks that's it! I mean I could have googled it but thanks. As soon as they start passing out the boost shot I'm going to take it. I'm 63, plus I have two adult sons don't believe in the shot. Plus grandchildren, so yeah shot it is. Where I live done already had over 5k death's.
 
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G

Golfx

Full Audioholic
yeah but your grandchildren know the names of Katty
Perry’s pets.


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Replicant 7

Replicant 7

Audioholic Samurai
yeah but your grandchildren know the names of Katty
Perry’s pets.


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I doubt that one, but what you talking about Willis.
 
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M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Field Marshall
Antibody treatment was the only thing that saved the last president's life. He spent half the year promoting hydroxywhatever, but he wasn't treated with it when it was his own life on the line.

Most of the wealthy or celebrities who have gotten sick enough to be hospitalized have bragged that the antibody treatment helped them beat Covid. Good and well, for those who can afford it and have the clout to jump the line.
For what it's worth, my friend is vaccinated, but he has a serious underlying health condition so he is keen on trying to stop a breakthrough infection any way he can, should it occur.

There seems to be a school of thought that vaccines are dangerous and natural immunity is better, so it's best stay unvaccinated, then get the antibody treatment when infected. This seems like a really poor choice to me for various reasons, not the least of which is that the antibody treatment might not be available in one's area at the time they're needed. It also seems like a waste of resources.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
You are discussing the small pox vaccination. One of the all time immulogical successes of modern scientific medicine. Ridding the world of near certain death from small pox. Simply a matter of persistent application to achieve world wide herd immunity. Another wonderful success story is the polio vaccine. Today our world isn’t ruled by logic and resulting studies. But instead social media and the love affairs of influencers.


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Modern scientific medicine, really, Dr. Edward Jenner made and introduced his vaccine in 1796! So it was a triumph of science in the early part of the industrial revolution.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
For what it's worth, my friend is vaccinated, but he has a serious underlying health condition so he is keen on trying to stop a breakthrough infection any way he can, should it occur.

There seems to be a school of thought that vaccines are dangerous and natural immunity is better, so it's best stay unvaccinated, then get the antibody treatment when infected. This seems like a really poor choice to me for various reasons, not the least of which is that the antibody treatment might not be available in one's area at the time they're needed. It also seems like a waste of resources.
It is the wrong choice!
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Field Marshall
The following is not a response to any prior posts in this thread.

Despite the decline in preventing infections, according to latest CDC data (age-adjusted) the unvaccinated are still about five times more likely to test positive.

>>>Covid-19 vaccines remain highly effective at keeping people alive and out of the hospital, but new U.S. data add further support to the argument that the shots aren’t preventing infections as much as they once did. Unvaccinated people were about five times more likely to test positive for the virus than the vaccinated in the week starting Sept. 26, down from about 15 times less likely in May, according to the latest age-adjusted data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, which were updated Monday.<<<

1637675912560.png




Decline? Yes.

Zero? No.

From what I see on social media, there seems to be a narrative among vaccine skeptics to the effect that breakthrough cases show that vaccines are ineffective with regards to preventing infection (This is just a general observation, it is not directed at any specific comments in this thread). However, the issue is obviously not a simple "100% effective" or "100% ineffective."

Even if it had been asserted that vaccines are 100% effective (a straw man), effectiveness less than 100% would still not prove "100% ineffective" and it would also not follow that there's no evidence showing that vaccines are effective.

It would be nice if we lived in an imaginary world with a choice that is 100% effective at preventing infection, but we don't. Given the choices here in the real world right now I'd take 5 to 1, even if preventing infection was the only criteria.

Here are some recent hospitalization numbers from the University of Michigan Health system:

1637678964985.png



The numbers for Spectrum Health and Henry Ford appear to be similar:

1637680051887.png


1637680117562.png


It appears to me that about 54% of the population in Michigan is fully vaccinated:

1637679412025.png


Even rounding this down to 50% it's clear that one's odds of being hospitalized, being in an ICU, and being on a vent are much higher if one is not vaccinated.

Again, the vaccines are not 100% effective with regards to hospitalization, but it does not follow that they are 100% ineffective when compared to the alternative. The odds strongly favor vaccination.

It would be interesting to know how many (if any) of the unvaccinated in these hospitals were previously infected but I have not seen any data on this.
 
G

Golfx

Full Audioholic
I think it was Mark Twain (could easily be wrong) who said “it is easier to fool someone than to convince them they have been fooled.” I


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Kvn_Walker

Kvn_Walker

Audioholic Field Marshall
The following is not a response to any prior posts in this thread.

Despite the decline in preventing infections, according to latest CDC data (age-adjusted) the unvaccinated are still about five times more likely to test positive.

>>>Covid-19 vaccines remain highly effective at keeping people alive and out of the hospital, but new U.S. data add further support to the argument that the shots aren’t preventing infections as much as they once did. Unvaccinated people were about five times more likely to test positive for the virus than the vaccinated in the week starting Sept. 26, down from about 15 times less likely in May, according to the latest age-adjusted data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, which were updated Monday.<<<

View attachment 51722



Decline? Yes.

Zero? No.

From what I see on social media, there seems to be a narrative among vaccine skeptics to the effect that breakthrough cases show that vaccines are ineffective with regards to preventing infection (This is just a general observation, it is not directed at any specific comments in this thread). However, the issue is obviously not a simple "100% effective" or "100% ineffective."

Even if it had been asserted that vaccines are 100% effective (a straw man), effectiveness less than 100% would still not prove "100% ineffective" and it would also not follow that there's no evidence showing that vaccines are effective.

It would be nice if we lived in an imaginary world with a choice that is 100% effective at preventing infection, but we don't. Given the choices here in the real world right now I'd take 5 to 1, even if preventing infection was the only criteria.

Here are some recent hospitalization numbers from the University of Michigan Health system:

View attachment 51728


The numbers for Spectrum Health and Henry Ford appear to be similar:

View attachment 51730

View attachment 51731

It appears to me that about 54% of the population in Michigan is fully vaccinated:

View attachment 51729

Even rounding this down to 50% it's clear that one's odds of being hospitalized, being in an ICU, and being on a vent are much higher if one is not vaccinated.

Again, the vaccines are not 100% effective with regards to hospitalization, but it does not follow that they are 100% ineffective when compared to the alternative. The odds strongly favor vaccination.

It would be interesting to know how many (if any) of the unvaccinated in these hospitals were previously infected but I have not seen any data on this.
Hence, the very reasoning for "boosters."

I'm going to do what I can to protect myself and my family. People can live with their choices or die with their choices. I'm long past giving a sh-t anymore.
 
MaxInValrico

MaxInValrico

Full Audioholic
Modern scientific medicine, really, Dr. Edward Jenner made and introduced his vaccine in 1796! So it was a triumph of science in the early part of the industrial revolution.
Early smallpox vaccines were being used in the Revolutionary War and were mandated by none other than George Washington himself.

I am getting boosted this afternoon.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
There is some breaking news here, that is creating a lot of interest. As yet the significance in unknown, but may well prove very significant.

As I stated in previous posts, we do not have a good lab test for immunity. They are crude antibody test, and do not measure T-cell response.

It has come to attention, that the UK has a steady high level of cases. They are not seeing the wave that Europe is seeing so far. This is particularly true for serious cases and the hospitals are not over loaded with Covid-19 like continental Europe.

One other thing stands out, that the elderly, who were primarily vaccinated with the AstraZeneca vaccine, are not seeing a spike.

Even more attention has been paid to India, where the population has almost exclusively been vaccinated with the AstraZeneca vaccine. The serum institute of India at Pune, have done a phenomenal job of producing the vaccine in the billions of doses. 81% of the population have had one dose and 42% two doses.

India has escaped subsequent waves, despite two large festivals and lots of mixing of the population.

Here is what it looks like.



So there have been preliminary studies of the T-cell response of the AstraZenca vaccine. It turns out that although this vaccine produces an inferior antibody response that wanes over time, it produces a good and prolonged memory T-cell response.

So it is possible and plausible, that this vaccine could be the way out of this fix.

India is now receiving a lot of attention. In addition India has supplied a vast amount of vaccine to the third world and continues to do so.

So watch this space!
 
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TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Things seem to be moving fast.

The university of Tubingen Germany, have just released phase one trials of a vaccine they call CoVac-1. It is a vaccine designed to specifically induce a memory T-cell response to Covid-19. Details are scant, but they say the phase 1 trials were very successful. That just means it produced a memory T-cell response as intended, and did not kill or seriously harm any of the volunteers.

Now this is a long way from having a product that can safely be put into arms.

However, the current vaccines, possibly with the exception of the AstraZeneca vaccine, are not adequate for producing long term immunity.

It is clear infection does not produce long term immunity, which is a general feature of corona virus infections.

Having a vaccine that could reliably produce long term T-cell immunity would more likely than not, be the game changer that ends this nightmare.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Haven't most already taken shots all the way back to grade school? Flu shots? I've had those shots where you went to your local health unit back in the '60s and they popped you with this gun looking thing and you got this lil sore on your upper arm. It fell off after a while. Than it left this lil raspberry round looking thing on your upper arm for the rest of your life. I've taken shots in my knees, shoulders, needles long as 6".
You mean you lost an arm? ;)
Oh, that high pressure gas injector?
Unfortunately not enough get the flu vaccine each year, hence the number of deaths?

But, yes, overall we had lots of vaccines in our life times.
The supreme court in 1905 or there abouts upheld mandates.
 
Mikado463

Mikado463

Audioholic Ninja
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