Connecting 4ohm speakers to 6 to 16ohm AV Receiver

R

Ranka82

Audiophyte
Hi guys,

I am new to this forum. I have searched but haven't found info about it. I hope this is not a repeated question.

I have an Onkyo AV Receiver TX-NR646 and a friend just gave me a set of KEF brand new (old model) Reference Series 103/3 speakers and I am planning on connecting these to my amplifier but I am worried about damaging the speakers or the amplifier.

KEF REFERENCE SERIES 103/4 SYSTEM SPECIFICATIONS:
Three-way, Magnetically Shielded Coupled Cavity Bass Reflex System SP3166
Drive units: … 2 x 6.5” B160 bass unit (SP1311) … 1 x 6.5” B160 midrange unit (SP1314) … 1” NT25 tweeter (SP1353)
Nominal impedance: 4 Ohms
Amplifier requirements: 50 - 200W into 4 Ohms
Frequency range: 50Hz to 20,000Hz +/-2.5dB (-6dB at 38Hz)
Sensitivity: 91dB at 1m / 2.83V (anechoic conditions)
Maximum output: 112dB on programme peaks under typical listening conditions

ONKYO TX-NR646 SYSTEM SPECIFICATIONS (USA):
Power Output - All Channels
170 W/Ch (6 Ohms, 1 kHz, 0.9% THD, 1 Channel Driven, FTC);
100 W/Ch (8 Ohms, 20 Hz–20 kHz, 0.08% THD, 2 Channels Driven, FTC)

Dynamic Power
240W (3 ohms front)
210W (4 ohms front)
120W (8 ohms front)

Speaker impedance:
6 to 16 ohms

I attached an image about the receiver specs.

My second question is about another set of speakers. I also have a 1994 KEF Q90's brand new (still in its carton box) speakers. Do you know if the Reference 103/4 are much better than this Q90's?

Thanks in advance!

Rene
 

Attachments

j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
No mid level receivers can realistically handle a true 4 ohm speaker. The risk is damaging the speaker, most commonly frying tweeters if you expect higher listening levels.
 
H

Hetfield

Audioholic Samurai
I would personally get a real deal separate amplifier. Even something from Outlaw audio or Emotiva. Higher end Parasound or Rotel. Denon and Yamaha make separates.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
 
Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Spartan
I would personally get a real deal separate amplifier. Even something from Outlaw audio or Emotiva. Higher end Parasound or Rotel. Denon and Yamaha make separates.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
The NR646 doesn't have main channel pre-outs so external amps would be out of the question.
 
H

Hetfield

Audioholic Samurai
The NR646 doesn't have main channel pre-outs so external amps would be out of the question.
That was kinda my point. For speakers with 4 ohm loads I would go with separates. Just my opinion. I guess some high end receivers will do the trick though too.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
 
Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Spartan
Hi guys,

I am new to this forum. I have searched but haven't found info about it. I hope this is not a repeated question.

I have an Onkyo AV Receiver TX-NR646 and a friend just gave me a set of KEF brand new (old model) Reference Series 103/3 speakers and I am planning on connecting these to my amplifier but I am worried about damaging the speakers or the amplifier.

KEF REFERENCE SERIES 103/4 SYSTEM SPECIFICATIONS:
Three-way, Magnetically Shielded Coupled Cavity Bass Reflex System SP3166
Drive units: … 2 x 6.5” B160 bass unit (SP1311) … 1 x 6.5” B160 midrange unit (SP1314) … 1” NT25 tweeter (SP1353)
Nominal impedance: 4 Ohms
Amplifier requirements: 50 - 200W into 4 Ohms
Frequency range: 50Hz to 20,000Hz +/-2.5dB (-6dB at 38Hz)
Sensitivity: 91dB at 1m / 2.83V (anechoic conditions)
Maximum output: 112dB on programme peaks under typical listening conditions

ONKYO TX-NR646 SYSTEM SPECIFICATIONS (USA):
Power Output - All Channels
170 W/Ch (6 Ohms, 1 kHz, 0.9% THD, 1 Channel Driven, FTC);
100 W/Ch (8 Ohms, 20 Hz–20 kHz, 0.08% THD, 2 Channels Driven, FTC)

Dynamic Power
240W (3 ohms front)
210W (4 ohms front)
120W (8 ohms front)

Speaker impedance:
6 to 16 ohms

I attached an image about the receiver specs.

My second question is about another set of speakers. I also have a 1994 KEF Q90's brand new (still in its carton box) speakers. Do you know if the Reference 103/4 are much better than this Q90's?

Thanks in advance!

Rene
Rene, Welcome to Audioholics.

You can operate the KEF RS 103/4 speakers with your Onkyo AVR provided that you play them at a reasonable sound level.
If you follow my suggestion of not putting the volume too high, you shouldn't have any problem.
 
R

Ranka82

Audiophyte
Thanks a lot for all of your responses. Fortunately I have access to this 103/4 and a pair of KEF Q90's so I think I will test both and see how the amp behaves. I would really like to keep the Reference 103/4 specially for the quality and because they were for free! I just bought the Amp, just before knowing I would get these speakers so I wouldn't like to spend more money on a new amp right now.

I don't plan to use them too loud. Using the amp at 50% of the volume my actual setup (Bose Acoustimass 10 iii), sounds pretty loud. I don't think I need more volume for the size of the room. I use it mostly for watching films.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Rene, Welcome to Audioholics.

You can operate the KEF RS 103/4 speakers with your Onkyo AVR provided that you play them at a reasonable sound level.
If you follow my suggestion of not putting the volume too high, you shouldn't have any problem.
He would have to play it very softly indeed. Those speakers are known amp busters and need beefy amplification.

Here is the impedance curve.



The impedance dips below 4 ohms. It is pretty much four ohm from 60 to 600 Hz which is the major power band. Worse the phase angle is in very negative territory where the impedance is low. So the amp will see a lower impedance than measured below 100 Hz until the tuning peak.

I would not recommend driving those speakers with that receiver.

As to whether the Q90 is the better speaker, the answer is probably. In addition they would be an easy drive for his receiver as it is a true three way with 8 ohm drivers in each pass band.

The 103/3s will have a slightly deeper bass but bloated.

These speakers came from a time when coupled cavity bass systems were in vogue.

The problem is that you can't build a decent passive speaker that way. At least the low pass, to mid must be an active crossover.

With my experiments back then I found that out quickly.

If you want low Q tight bass then you have a narrow bandwidth. If you want a wider bandwidth then you get high Q and bloated bass. Even at the crossover point of the speaker in question the crossover at 180 Hz is still too low for a decent passive crossover.


So I found that to get a response from the high twenties the highest you could really drive the bass unit was 90 Hz, and then you ended up with a Q on the high end of acceptable at 0.7.

So my speakers ended up active for the bass to mid at 90 Hz, with a Q of 0.7.



The object was to design a relatively compact monitor with a wide bandwidth to monitor live recordings.

The design worked and I still use them today. Build date was 1989. The bass is much better quality than the KEFs.



The KEFs have another issue, which I suspect is shared with both the speakers referenced.

If you look at the frequency plot you will see a deep notch out in the 9 KHz region.

I have form with this issue also. My current studio center uses the SEAS prestige coaxial drivers. SEAS make these drivers under license from KEF and there have a lot of similarities with the early KEF Uni Q drivers. They have that very same suck out in the 9 KHz region. This is subtly audible and imparts a dullness to the HF. I am certain that this problem is due to cancellation from cone reflections from the tweeter. I found this a very difficult problem to deal with.
However dealt with it was.



So in summary if you are going to use that Onkyo receiver, then use the Q90s. They are likely the better speaker anyway all round.

Both of them are pretty good speakers, although the bass bloat of the 103/3 will likely present problems in a lot of rooms.

I can find no third party measurements of the Q90s, but I would expect them to have the same HF suck out. In any event a dip in frequency response is far less noticeable than a peak.
 
moves

moves

Audioholic Chief
Crazy understanding in this thread.

I messed up too. I hooked my Totem Wind 4 ohm speaker to the 8 ohm terminal on the back of the Mcintosh. Had it like that for a few weeks.

I don't notice anything coming out of the tweeter so I am crossing my fingers.

How bad is it that I've done?
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Crazy understanding in this thread.

I messed up too. I hooked my Totem Wind 4 ohm speaker to the 8 ohm terminal on the back of the Mcintosh. Had it like that for a few weeks.

I don't notice anything coming out of the tweeter so I am crossing my fingers.

How bad is it that I've done?
I doubt that has anything to do with the tweeter failure. The Macs use auto transformers between the output devices and the speakers, which by the way I regard as a bad idea. Anyhow all that happens if you do what you have done is halve the power available from the MAC. So the only way this could be related is that you drove the Mac to clipping and increased the HF load from harmonic distortion.

Most tweeter failure is from over driving. I will admit to the odd tweeter failure over the years.

I'm pretty sure the tweeter in your speakers is a version of the SEAS Prestige aluminum tweeter. It is the same as in the Totem Forest. The published FR from SEAS has the same signature as the FR in the Forest measurements in Stereophile. Incidentally the Totem Forest measured very badly, with among other defects huge cabinet resonances galore. This is not an expensive tweeter, and not a particularly high powered one, and so could be damaged by over powering.

What you need to do is remove the non working tweeter and measure the DC resistance with it out of circuit. I would bet it is open circuit and needs replacement. Once removed you likely can see who made it and the model number. Totem do not make their own drivers.

For the price of the Totem Wind they really should show their measurements.
 
moves

moves

Audioholic Chief
I doubt that has anything to do with the tweeter failure. The Macs use auto transformers between the output devices and the speakers, which by the way I regard as a bad idea. Anyhow all that happens if you do what you have done is halve the power available from the MAC. So the only way this could be related is that you drove the Mac to clipping and increased the HF load from harmonic distortion.

Most tweeter failure is from over driving. I will admit to the odd tweeter failure over the years.

I'm pretty sure the tweeter in your speakers is a version of the SEAS Prestige aluminum tweeter. It is the same as in the Totem Forest. The published FR from SEAS has the same signature as the FR in the Forest measurements in Stereophile. Incidentally the Totem Forest measured very badly, with among other defects huge cabinet resonances galore. This is not an expensive tweeter, and not a particularly high powered one, and so could be damaged by over powering.

What you need to do is remove the non working tweeter and measure the DC resistance with it out of circuit. I would bet it is open circuit and needs replacement. Once removed you likely can see who made it and the model number. Totem do not make their own drivers.

For the price of the Totem Wind they really should show their measurements.

My tweeter didn't fail. it is still working. I am just wondering if I could have done damage to it. As I mentioned before, I sounds fine so I am guessing it is fine. I was just wondering if what I did is a big deal and dangerous for the speaker.

Thanks,
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
My tweeter didn't fail. it is still working. I am just wondering if I could have done damage to it. As I mentioned before, I sounds fine so I am guessing it is fine. I was just wondering if what I did is a big deal and dangerous for the speaker.

Thanks,
Well, then why in Heaven's name did you say: - "I didn't hear anything coming out of the tweeter."

Any reasonable person would take that to mean a tweeter failure.

That was a time wasting post.
 
moves

moves

Audioholic Chief
Ha.... I mean I didn't hear anything that sounded "off" or.... "different"... or.... "odd"...
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Ha.... I mean I didn't hear anything that sounded "off" or.... "different"... or.... "odd"...
In that case you did not employ the precision the English language has to offer.
 
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