confused

[viseral audio]

I have been infatuated with music and movies for about 40 years and I have had many setups in that time , but recently I experienced something I thought not possible , I won't go into equipment so much as setup, in my 2 channel setup I have a pair of towers and a pro sub run by an avr with external amp, I have tried different amps different subs, different rooms , all setup with rew to get best integration between main and subs, I have gotten good graphs and ok sound and was going to get different speakers because I just couldn't get the separation in soundstage and the clarity if you will, then for kicks I changed setup to going just main full range signal with no bass management to a pair of my pro amps and used the amps built in crossover to bi amp the main and subs , I set up crossover with a little overlap between the two and got decent rew graph after inverting phase on main speakers( was easier than switching subs) and got the cleanest most detailed sounding stage with no bass overhang and apparent quickness I have ever heard with any of my previous setups. am I to assume the crossover in a cheap pro amp maintains phase or something over a ridiculously expensive AVR?

 

[TLS Guy]

I have been infatuated with music and movies for about 40 years and I have had many setups in that time , but recently I experienced something I thought not possible , I won't go into equipment so much as setup, in my 2 channel setup I have a pair of towers and a pro sub run by an avr with external amp, I have tried different amps different subs, different rooms , all setup with rew to get best integration between main and subs, I have gotten good graphs and ok sound and was going to get different speakers because I just couldn't get the separation in soundstage and the clarity if you will, then for kicks I changed setup to going just main full range signal with no bass management to a pair of my pro amps and used the amps built in crossover to bi amp the main and subs , I set up crossover with a little overlap between the two and got decent rew graph after inverting phase on main speakers( was easier than switching subs) and got the cleanest most detailed sounding stage with no bass overhang and apparent quickness I have ever heard with any of my previous setups. am I to assume the crossover in a cheap pro amp maintains phase or something over a ridiculously expensive AVR?

You were just lucky. We need to know what amps, what speakers and the details of he active crossovers. Crossovers have to be designed specifically for each driver. Somehow you just struck a lucky match. The big question though, did you just connect to the high pass and low pass terminals on the back of your speakers, or did you remove the crossovers, in your speakers. Otherwise you doubled up on the crossovers and stacked them, which is just plain wrong.

 

[viseral audio]

Hi TLS, my setup now is Yamaha RXA8a avr signal out main left and right to pair of crown xls2502 amps in output y mode high pass to main speakers svs ultra towers, low pass to pro subs and yes just run to speaker terminals, so I'm not using any bass management on Yamaha, unbelievable difference , not sure why?

 

[TLS Guy]

Hi TLS, my setup now is Yamaha RXA8a avr signal out main left and right to pair of crown xls2502 amps in output y mode high pass to main speakers svs ultra towers, low pass to pro subs and yes just run to speaker terminals, so I'm not using any bass management on Yamaha, unbelievable difference , not sure why?

I'm still not sure what you did. In Y Mode you can send both inputs to channel I. There are filters you can engage to make a crude crossover. So I assume you have set one amp too roll off the highs, and one on the other amp to roll off the highs, and then run the outputs into the crossover on the speaker. If that sounds any good you are lucky. The corollary is that if you get hit by a train in a rail crossing you don't necessarily get killed!

 

[Trebdp83]

I’d be curious if the results would not be similar if simply running the fronts full range(Large) and turning on Extra Bass in the Yamaha and connecting the sub to its pre out. This will not add effects to the fronts but just allow their low bass signals to be sent to the sub pre out with the fronts in full range(Large). Then, I'd convert multichannel signals to two channel PCM at the source since using a 2.1 setup, put the receiver in "Straight" mode and adjust the sub level up or down to achieve the desired mix. But, seems you found something that works for you, however unusual. Happy experimenting!

 

[lovinthehd]

What are the specific settings for low pass and high pass filters on your Crowns?

 

[viseral audio]

left goes to one crown and right to the other crown main speakers are high passed at around 72hz and subs are low passed at 125hz, the input y config is to use separate amps for left and right. I overlapped some frequencies to smooth out the mid or upper bass in my room and sounds terrific, as trebdp 83 said that was my usual setup with extra bass and large front, tried also normal bass management with various crossover settings but was never really happy.

 

[lovinthehd]

Interesting, but yeah would think most avrs would only somewhat come close to that with the LFE+Main/Double Bass type settings. Glad you found something more to your liking.

 

[viseral audio]

thanks Lovinthehd, is the low and high pass in the crown amps just filters not really a crossover?

 

[lovinthehd]

thanks Lovinthehd, is the low and high pass in the crown amps just filters not really a crossover?

A crossover in a avr is genrally just a fixed selection of a combination of a high pass and low pass filter (the crossover number is where they "cross over") at particular slopes. Be nice if each parameter were particularly adjustable. Per my 2502 manual the high & low pass filter slopes are 24dB/octave Linkwitz Riley type.

 

[viseral audio]

thanks makes sense , so by overlapping some frequencies I can add just the right amount of mid bass, I appreciate your knowledge.

 

[viseral audio]

Now I'm tempted to try my theatre setup with my jbl3800hdi ,s I could setup with another pair crown 2502,s and sub or two to go with main speakers and use other subs for lfe

 

[Trebdp83]

Wasn’t sure if you had tried the Large setting with Extra Bass so I suggested it. Yamaha does not have an adjustable LPF and really doesn’t say anything about it at all. You’d assume it is set at 120Hz. They say “Low Bass” is sent to sub pre out when fronts are Large and Extra Bass is on but no numbers are thrown out. So, it seems you have more control with the current setup and you seem to like it.

 

[3db]

I’d be curious if the results would not be similar if simply running the fronts full range(Large) and turning on Extra Bass in the Yamaha and connecting the sub to its pre out. This will not add effects to the fronts but just allow their low bass signals to be sent to the sub pre out with the fronts in full range(Large). Then, I'd convert multichannel signals to two channel PCM at the source since using a 2.1 setup, put the receiver in "Straight" mode and adjust the sub level up or down to achieve the desired mix. But, seems you found something that works for you, however unusual. Happy experimenting!

Ive done that very thing to my bedroom and basement system when listening to 2 channel sources with both AVRs being Yamaha.

 

[lovinthehd]

Wasn’t sure if you had tried the Large setting with Extra Bass so I suggested it. Yamaha does not have an adjustable LPF and really doesn’t say anything about it at all. You’d assume it is set at 120Hz. They say “Low Bass” is sent to sub pre out when fronts are Large and Extra Bass is on but no numbers are thrown out. So, it seems you have more control with the current setup and you seem to like it.

Why do you think it's set to 120? I've always wondered if it's limited by the sub or avr....

ps Think the crossover acts as a low pass filter on my Denons and Onkyo, tho....

 

[Trebdp83]

Well, there's no good reason to set it any higher.

 

[lovinthehd]

Well, there's no good reason to set it any higher.

Same might be said for the double bass thing in the first place

 

[Trebdp83]

“Double Bass” is misleading on Onkyo receivers because it doesn’t double the bass or increase it at all but simply sends bass signals to the sub while fronts are set at Full Band and “Double Bass” cannot be selected when using a crossover with the fronts.

Yamahas actually apply a bass booster when fronts are set at Small and “Extra Bass” is on. If fronts are Large, “Extra Bass” behaves like Onkyo’s “Double Bass” and simply sends low bass signals to the sub.

So, if somebody wants to run their fronts Large/Full Band and get a signal to their sub using a Yamaha or Onkyo receiver, they’ll need to turn on Extra/Double Bass. Many don’t like doing it as it can muddy the waters. Some won’t have it any other way. I use an 80Hz crossover on all of the speakers and use a 120Hz LPF for the subs, this week.

 

[lovinthehd]

“Double Bass” is misleading on Onkyo receivers because it doesn’t double the bass or increase it at all but simply sends bass signals to the sub while fronts are set at Full Band and “Double Bass” cannot be selected when using a crossover with the fronts.

Yamahas actually apply a bass booster when fronts are set at Small and “Extra Bass” is on. If fronts are Large, “Extra Bass” behaves like Onkyo’s “Double Bass” and simply sends low bass signals to the sub.

So, if somebody wants to run their fronts Large/Full Band and get a signal to their sub using a Yamaha or Onkyo receiver, they’ll need to turn on Extra/Double Bass. Many don’t like doing it as it can muddy the waters. Some won’t have it any other way. I use an 80Hz crossover on all of the speakers and use a 120Hz LPF for the subs, this week.

You use the LPF for LFE at 120? Or the one on the subs themselves?

Guess it's been a while since I dived into setup on my Onkyo, forgot they use full range or having a crossover in the same menu item....and I don't even have a double bass setting on mine (it's got Audyssey, tho)

 

[Trebdp83]

Subs have crossovers at max(140Hz) and gain at 50% and receiver’s LPF for LFE is at 120Hz.