Concealed Handgun this time

[mike c]

comments and opinions on my choices and recommendations

first, i've put in an order for a 5.56 m4 for that other thread, i won't be getting it soon though as i made sure that the rifle was "clean" and "legit" before they bring it to me. i'm still considering the .22lr version OR getting a conversion kit for it.

ok, purpose for this handgun
-i'll be using this at work, so i need it very compact so it won't be getting in the way of the waist (i need it to be comfortable)
i've thought about ankle holsters, but sometimes i'll be in shorts
-it needs to be concealed enough that people won't know it's there
-if it's an SA, it needs to have a physical safety (switch on the slide, as i need this cocked and chambered but still safe)
-it needs to be 9mm or .22lr or .38spl


1) Walther P22 6.26" x 4.49"
pros: looks nice, compact, cheap ammo
cons: putting the gun together needs an included tool

2) subcompact version of my HS9 (springfield xd) 6.25" x 4.75"
pros: same ammo, great customer service
cons: it's only an inch or two shorter than my HS2000 9mm.

3) taurus has a ton of tiny weapons, but in .380 calibre ... if i were to add another calibre to my gear, i'd prefer it to be .22lr [so this goes for .25 calibres as well)

4) revolver?
pros: pretty safe, cheap
cons: low ammo capacity

 

[jp_over]

"2) compact version of my HS9 (springfield xd)
pros: same ammo, great customer service
cons: it's only an inch or two shorter than my HS2000 9mm."

I've heard great things about the XD and they shoot / handle very well (my buddy has several models). Also, 1" or 2" makes a great difference for concealed carry.

When I made this decision years ago (to carry concealed), I decided on the Glock 26 but the XD wasn't around back then. It deserves a serious look.

 

[mike c]

in the event that i get to use this, it will almost be point blank, so calibre won't be too much of a problem.

also, is two tone (or mono stainless) a no-no for concealed carry? should i be going all black?

recommendations for holsters would also be appreciated (preferably available at amazon.com or online)

you guys think a pouch would look sucky?

 

[jp_over]

in the event that i get to use this, it will almost be point blank, so calibre won't be too much of a problem.

also, is two tone (or mono stainless) a no-no for concealed carry? should i be going all black?

recommendations for holsters would also be appreciated (preferably available at amazon.com or online)

you guys think a pouch would look sucky?

1) Caliber should be given some major consideration. Minimum acceptable is 9mm for me but some are ok with .38, or even .380.

Here's a .22 shooting at point blank (multiple hits):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbT-JLYihtw

2) All black is less likely to be seen at night and hence give away your status (armed). However, if you have it well concealed, by the time you have to draw it, likely it won't matter anyway.

3) Fobus and Galco summer comfort (Galco is a bit expensive but the quality is on par with the price.) When I carry, it's usually my $20 Fobus just because it's so convenient.
4) I'd prefer a waist band carry with a long shirt over a pouch but hey, to each his own.

 

[lsiberian]

You will be using it at work.

 

[dkane360]

I would stay away from the P22 for concealed carry. It has very little stopping power, and is still pretty big for concealed carry. This are pretty sweet:
http://www.magnumresearch.com/micro_eagle.asp

 

[jeffsg4mac]

Glock has some small 9's and 40's.

 

[Tarub]

I'll recommend this old Nokia model.

 

[mike c]

1) Caliber should be given some major consideration. Minimum acceptable is 9mm for me but some are ok with .38, or even .380.

Here's a .22 shooting at point blank (multiple hits):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbT-JLYihtw

2) All black is less likely to be seen at night and hence give away your status (armed). However, if you have it well concealed, by the time you have to draw it, likely it won't matter anyway.

3) Fobus and Galco summer comfort (Galco is a bit expensive but the quality is on par with the price.) When I carry, it's usually my $20 Fobus just because it's so convenient.
4) I'd prefer a waist band carry with a long shirt over a pouch but hey, to each his own.

holy crap on that video. he might as well have been shooting with a BB gun.

You will be using it at work.

let's just say i get a lot of face to face time with new people in my line of work. and unfortunately there's this modus operandi that some bad people pretend to be customers...

I would stay away from the P22 for concealed carry. It has very little stopping power, and is still pretty big for concealed carry. This are pretty sweet:
http://www.magnumresearch.com/micro_eagle.asp

aa, but i will have to check on availability over here (philippines)

Glock has some small 9's and 40's.

glocks are pretty rare nowadays, for some reason, they're always out of stock (as in stocks never arrive at the stores)

honestly, looking at the p22 size and the subcompact xd, i'd get the subcompact, but i have to ask the store if they have custom models that have the physical safety on the slide.

I'll recommend this old Nokia model.

as i was scrolling down, i actually thought nokia was also into guns ... til that phone on the grip

 

[MidnightSensi2]

I work in a bad neighborhood, and generally prefer to carry a larger gun with high capacity magazine. I carry a H&K USP .45ACP Comptact Tactical.
(this without the light on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:HK_USP-CT.jpg )

It's still a fairly big gun, and I've tried a lot of holsters to carry it comfortably and found this to be the best:

http://thunderwear.com/

You basically wear it over your underwear, and then pants over that. It rests the weight of the gun over your hips, so you don't feel like your carrying a big gun. But, I wear baggy shorts and a big t-shirt to work (we are allowed to have firearms), so, I can get away with a bit larger of a gun without it showing.

Another thing I like about these type of holsters is being able to grab it while seated in the car.

Go with at least a 9mm. If someone is on drugs you need to physically disable them, not just cause pain (because they may not feel it initially). A .22 someone hopped up can keep going.

When I wear dress clothing or suits, I generally carry a Smith & Wesson J frame little wheel gun. It fires .38 or 357 and it fits in my pocket without showing through it's shape.

Hope that helps!

 

[GO-NAD!]

let's just say i get a lot of face to face time with new people in my line of work. and unfortunately there's this modus operandi that some bad people pretend to be customers...

Time for a career change?

 

[mike c]

I work in a bad neighborhood, and generally prefer to carry a larger gun with high capacity magazine. I carry a H&K USP .45ACP Comptact Tactical.
(this without the light on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:HK_USP-CT.jpg )

It's still a fairly big gun, and I've tried a lot of holsters to carry it comfortably and found this to be the best:

http://thunderwear.com/

You basically wear it over your underwear, and then pants over that. It rests the weight of the gun over your hips, so you don't feel like your carrying a big gun. But, I wear baggy shorts and a big t-shirt to work (we are allowed to have firearms), so, I can get away with a bit larger of a gun without it showing.

Another thing I like about these type of holsters is being able to grab it while seated in the car.

Go with at least a 9mm. If someone is on drugs you need to physically disable them, not just cause pain (because they may not feel it initially). A .22 someone hopped up can keep going.

When I wear dress clothing or suits, I generally carry a Smith & Wesson J frame little wheel gun. It fires .38 or 357 and it fits in my pocket without showing through it's shape.

Hope that helps!

very interested in this one ... but i do have to decide which gun to carry concealed. which did you get, standard or combination? when i tried to go through the shopping cart, the standard holster was asking for "Holster Strapping Type", what's that? it's different from the waistline.

Time for a career change?

i wish i could ... but i need to put food on the table

 

[itschris]

Hey Mike congrats on the M4. You made the right choice there. Give some more details on it. I'm anxious to see what you got.

On the carry front, if you want to go with the poly guns, give the XD series a serious look. They have this great option of a true subcompact that you can very easily carry and conceal. Along with that though is an extended mag which has a molded grip on the bottom half that mates perfectly (as designed) to the subcompact frame to create a full sized grip. This isn't some simplified finger extension, the mag literally completes the grip. It's a fantatic feature as it really creates a dual purpose gun.. a carry and a great home defense weapon.

Whatever you do, don't get caught up in any of the XD vs Glock nonesense. Both are great guns. For me the XD's fit my hand better, and just feel more natural... but that's me. Also, don't discount the M&P's either. Calibers, if you can, a 45 is choice, then .40, the 9mm. I'd rather have the most deadly round over capacity. I often carry a .40 because it's a nice comprimise, but I wouldn't get hung up on caliber either. Hell, I don't think anyone would volunteer to be shot with a 22 for that matter.

The greatest benefit of a revolver is the simplicity, and there's a lot to be said for that. Ruger makes a fantastic lightweight revolver called the LCR. A lot of the LEO's around here carry it as a backup weapon. S&W also has the new bodyguard series which is also outstanding and comes with an integrated laser. You can certainly add this to any weapon with Crimson Trace grips, but it's nice to have right of the box.

My only concerns with .380's is the availability of ammo. It's still hard to come by and isn't cheap.... at least here in FL. You need something which is readily available and affordable enough that you can spend serious time at the range. This is critical for any gun especially the one you want to carry. And for the reason alone, 9mm is often a good choice. But again, don't get hung up on calibers.

Also, don't forget about the tried and true 1911. There are many lightweight compact models out there now. There's just something about looking down the barrell of a .45 1911 that says "go away." My only reservation would be on the Kimber offerings. I think they're great range guns, but I don't know that I would want to carry one. I talked about this before, but I personally know of people who have had major issues with their guns which gives weight to the all the internet criticisms you read.

Keep us posted. And don't forget the deets on your AR.

 

[mike c]

thanks itschris

i will only consider the xd subcompact: (i already made the inquiry, locally it's the HS2000) if they can provide a physical safety on the slide. the subcompact is also more expensive than my compact model, but i guess small is almost always more expensive. it's also only available in 9mm and .40 iirc.

revolvers are still very much in the running

re: 1911 ... i notice many brands have their versions of the 1911, do i have to buy a specific brand like colt or paraordnance? (paraordnance costs an arm over here like 2-3k)

i'd get the taurus 1911 if i wasn't waiting in the store for my revolver and hearing some people walk in complaining their SA mags drop to the floor while shooting!

i've requested a pic of the m4, i think it will have a fixed stock, typical triangle hand guard and a permanently fixed carry handle. i like the carry handle, i won't be scoping this or anything but i want a telescopic stock (so i might have to buy that separately).

question is about that m4 ... he said it had a 20" barrel? doesn't that make it an M16? what IS the difference between an M4 and M16? (i thought the M4 had a 14.5-16 barrel) though i've seen a customer have one with a 7.5" barrel.

edit: local HS (XD) seller only has the safety on the slide on the .45 service model. it's exactly the same size as my hs2000 9mm. but with the benefit of the safety so i can keep it cocked and chambered. hmmm. 1100bucks.

 

[jp_over]

Mike,

Let me urge you to consider the manual safety requirement a bit. A safety device will only make your weapon as safe as your firearms handling procedures and following "the rules:
1) Finger off the trigger until you intend to shoot
2) Don't point the weapon at anything you don't intend to shoot
3) Treat every weapon like it's loaded
4) (for weapons with manual safety) Keep the weapon on safe until you intend to shoot

Break the rules (big emphasis on #1) and no safety is fail safe. Moreover, a safety adds complexity to your draw.

After much debate, I decided to forgo the manual safety a while back. Just a thought that might broaden your options. Of course, I only make this recommendation with the caveat that you must use a quality holster in such an endeavor.

 

[itschris]

thanks itschris

i will only consider the xd subcompact: (i already made the inquiry, locally it's the HS2000) if they can provide a physical safety on the slide. the subcompact is also more expensive than my compact model, but i guess small is almost always more expensive. it's also only available in 9mm and .40 iirc.

revolvers are still very much in the running

re: 1911 ... i notice many brands have their versions of the 1911, do i have to buy a specific brand like colt or paraordnance? (paraordnance costs an arm over here like 2-3k)

i'd get the taurus 1911 if i wasn't waiting in the store for my revolver and hearing some people walk in complaining their SA mags drop to the floor while shooting!

i've requested a pic of the m4, i think it will have a fixed stock, typical triangle hand guard and a permanently fixed carry handle. i like the carry handle, i won't be scoping this or anything but i want a telescopic stock (so i might have to buy that separately).

question is about that m4 ... he said it had a 20" barrel? doesn't that make it an M16? what IS the difference between an M4 and M16? (i thought the M4 had a 14.5-16 barrel) though i've seen a customer have one with a 7.5" barrel.

edit: local HS (XD) seller only has the safety on the slide on the .45 service model. it's exactly the same size as my hs2000 9mm. but with the benefit of the safety so i can keep it cocked and chambered. hmmm. 1100bucks.

Well generally speaking... an M16 is the fully automatic military version of the rifle... the AR15... the civilian verision. The M4 in civilian trim of course is a semi-automatic AR, carbine length gas system, typically with a 14.5 barrel (which also has a relieft cut on the barrel to accomodate the military issue grenade launcher) with a pinned flash suppressor to make it the legal 16" barrel length. Anything shorter is considerd an SBR (short barreled rifle) and is considered Class 3 status. An M4 has the adjustable stock and the barrell has a specific feedramp configuration.

I'm not an expert, but I don't believe what you're getting would be considered an M4... an AR15 - yes... but not a true M4. The 20 inch barrel is considered more of what's called a Varmint rifle... being that it's often used by hunters for shooting varmints. Longer Barrell = longer shot accuracy. An M4 like other 16" derivitive is thought of as a CQB (close quarters combat) rifle. Just be sure to get what you pay for. If I get a chance tonight, I'll post a pic of mine again when I get home and point out some things.

Back to handguns... you will find the arguments for a manual safety as divisive as Ford vs Chevy, LCD vs Plasma, Glock vs XD, and so on. My personal choice is a manual safety. I carry my XD sometimes, but mine does not have a manual safety and it's something that sometimes weighs on me when I carry. I much prefer to carry my lightweight commander 1911 cocked and locked. But where that comes from was that back when I used to shoot competitions in college 15-20 years ago, the 1911 was the creme of the crop. The poly guns weren't really around then and the big alternative was the epic Beretta 92. But 1911's were the deal because of all the custimization available... much like the AR today. I have trained countless hours drawing my pistol and dropping the safety on the draw with my thumb. That's just how I trained for years and it's what sticks. For me the question about a manual safefy is that it's just one more so fullproof way not to have an accidental discharge, but yet at the same time, it's not all a hinderance for when you do want to pull the trigger. We've all seen the video's of the cop talking to the schoolkids who shoots himself in the leg when he goes to holster the weapon. You can argue all day long that he's an idiot and didn't follow procedure and all of that, but I don't think you can argue that he has more time with the gun training than the average non LEO. It's easy to tell people just keep your booger finger off the trigger, but in a high stress situation it's a different world. It's not just stupid ill-trained morons who accidently discharge their firearm. It happens to the best trained people sometimes.

I think about a struggle situation where you're in it. You got somebody coming at you at speed or is actually already on you and you're reaching to unholster your handgun while fighting someone off. It ain't like the movies... I've been there... it's sheer panic and this idea that you're gonna just seamlessly draw you pistol from your concealed pants holster in the beautiful fluid motion is just not realistic. But what you can train for is the muscle memory of once your hand is gripped and the pistol free to sweep the safety with your thumb. I still do it all the time even with my XD when we run tactical courses... it's that ingrained.

If you do consider a 1911, there's a ton of options... it's endless. You don't have to get a Colt. Springfield makes fantastic 1911's in a variety of formats each with their own configurations. There's lots to choose from. I don't know much about the Taurus 1911's... they're newer to the game. But what I would look for is a compact model or commander model. They're much easier to conceal. There's also a several semi-custom manufacturers out there like Les Bear, Ed Brown, and the like who take it up a few notches. But you will never go wrong with a Colt or Springfield 1911. They've been doing it a long time. S&W even makes 1911's now. The issue with them is that they have an external extractor. People like it, others hate it. Again.. Ford vs Chevy.

Just remember these are just my opinions based on my own experiences, likes, and dislikes. You're the best judge for what's best for you. If you have any questions, I'm happy to help where I can.

 

[mike c]

Mike,

Let me urge you to consider the manual safety requirement a bit. A safety device will only make your weapon as safe as your firearms handling procedures and following "the rules:
1) Finger off the trigger until you intend to shoot
2) Don't point the weapon at anything you don't intend to shoot
3) Treat every weapon like it's loaded
4) (for weapons with manual safety) Keep the weapon on safe until you intend to shoot

Break the rules (big emphasis on #1) and no safety is fail safe. Moreover, a safety adds complexity to your draw.

After much debate, I decided to forgo the manual safety a while back. Just a thought that might broaden your options. Of course, I only make this recommendation with the caveat that you must use a quality holster in such an endeavor.

for the record, i already have an HS2000 9mm (springfield xd 9mm over there) and i'm super iffy putting it anywhere near my body cocked and NOT physically locked. for sure, i observe the finger off the trigger thing and pointing it elsewhere ... but when holstered, holstering or unholstering ... those are the times they're pointed to my body and i absolutely do not trust the grip and trigger safety enough to risk it i'd just like one more safety in the chain or a revolver

Well generally speaking... an M16 is the fully automatic military version of the rifle... the AR15... the civilian verision. The M4 in civilian trim of course is a semi-automatic AR, carbine length gas system, typically with a 14.5 barrel (which also has a relieft cut on the barrel to accomodate the military issue grenade launcher) with a pinned flash suppressor to make it the legal 16" barrel length. Anything shorter is considerd an SBR (short barreled rifle) and is considered Class 3 status. An M4 has the adjustable stock and the barrell has a specific feedramp configuration.

I'm not an expert, but I don't believe what you're getting would be considered an M4... an AR15 - yes... but not a true M4. The 20 inch barrel is considered more of what's called a Varmint rifle... being that it's often used by hunters for shooting varmints. Longer Barrell = longer shot accuracy. An M4 like other 16" derivitive is thought of as a CQB (close quarters combat) rifle. Just be sure to get what you pay for. If I get a chance tonight, I'll post a pic of mine again when I get home and point out some things.

Back to handguns... you will find the arguments for a manual safety as divisive as Ford vs Chevy, LCD vs Plasma, Glock vs XD, and so on. My personal choice is a manual safety. I carry my XD sometimes, but mine does not have a manual safety and it's something that sometimes weighs on me when I carry. I much prefer to carry my lightweight commander 1911 cocked and locked. But where that comes from was that back when I used to shoot competitions in college 15-20 years ago, the 1911 was the creme of the crop. The poly guns weren't really around then and the big alternative was the epic Beretta 92. But 1911's were the deal because of all the custimization available... much like the AR today. I have trained countless hours drawing my pistol and dropping the safety on the draw with my thumb. That's just how I trained for years and it's what sticks. For me the question about a manual safefy is that it's just one more so fullproof way not to have an accidental discharge, but yet at the same time, it's not all a hinderance for when you do want to pull the trigger. We've all seen the video's of the cop talking to the schoolkids who shoots himself in the leg when he goes to holster the weapon. You can argue all day long that he's an idiot and didn't follow procedure and all of that, but I don't think you can argue that he has more time with the gun training than the average non LEO. It's easy to tell people just keep your booger finger off the trigger, but in a high stress situation it's a different world. It's not just stupid ill-trained morons who accidently discharge their firearm. It happens to the best trained people sometimes.

I think about a struggle situation where you're in it. You got somebody coming at you at speed or is actually already on you and you're reaching to unholster your handgun while fighting someone off. It ain't like the movies... I've been there... it's sheer panic and this idea that you're gonna just seamlessly draw you pistol from your concealed pants holster in the beautiful fluid motion is just not realistic. But what you can train for is the muscle memory of once your hand is gripped and the pistol free to sweep the safety with your thumb. I still do it all the time even with my XD when we run tactical courses... it's that ingrained.

If you do consider a 1911, there's a ton of options... it's endless. You don't have to get a Colt. Springfield makes fantastic 1911's in a variety of formats each with their own configurations. There's lots to choose from. I don't know much about the Taurus 1911's... they're newer to the game. But what I would look for is a compact model or commander model. They're much easier to conceal. There's also a several semi-custom manufacturers out there like Les Bear, Ed Brown, and the like who take it up a few notches. But you will never go wrong with a Colt or Springfield 1911. They've been doing it a long time. S&W even makes 1911's now. The issue with them is that they have an external extractor. People like it, others hate it. Again.. Ford vs Chevy.

Just remember these are just my opinions based on my own experiences, likes, and dislikes. You're the best judge for what's best for you. If you have any questions, I'm happy to help where I can.

very much appreciated.

with the handgun:

1) XD .45
pros: slide safety
cons: same size as my current pistol

2) revolver
pros: super simple
cons: haven't seen one with looks i'm in love with yet

3) 1911
pros: super cool looking
cons: very long overall length, expensive ... will eat right into my rifle budget

with the rifle:
in that case, i will do more due diligence on it

 

[GlocksRock]

I'm not sure why you feel the need for a slide mounted safety, revolvers don't have them, and there is a trigger safety that keeps the gun from being discharged unless the trigger is pulled. So if you have a holster that covers the trigger guard, and you keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot, you should be ok without one.

 

[itschris]

for the record, i already have an HS2000 9mm (springfield xd 9mm over there) and i'm super iffy putting it anywhere near my body cocked and NOT physically locked. for sure, i observe the finger off the trigger thing and pointing it elsewhere ... but when holstered, holstering or unholstering ... those are the times they're pointed to my body and i absolutely do not trust the grip and trigger safety enough to risk it i'd just like one more safety in the chain or a revolver



very much appreciated.

with the handgun:

1) XD .45
pros: slide safety
cons: same size as my current pistol

2) revolver
pros: super simple
cons: haven't seen one with looks i'm in love with yet

3) 1911
pros: super cool looking
cons: very long overall length, expensive ... will eat right into my rifle budget

with the rifle:
in that case, i will do more due diligence on it

On your breakdown:
1) The XD 45 is really just a matter of caliber. If you don't want to carry the 9mm with the manual safety... and I agree with your feelings about it... then consider getting rid of it. That's a very popular gun and should get a good price for it. If you really like the XD format, the consider that 45 or the subcompact with the full size grip mag extensions.

2) The Ruger LCR and S&W Bodyguard are the two top dogs in the concealed carry revolover game as far as I can tell. If either of those don't do it for you, you're probably not going to find another. For carry... you really have to think of what's going to work best. If you decide it's a revolver for any number of reasons, get it and worry save the excitement aspect for your rifle and other handguns. You carry gun is about function, safety, and capability... nothing else.

3) Here's the thing with the 1911. Like an AR, you can make it exactly how you want right down to how many lines you want the checkering to be if you decide so. They are more expensive but I kinow of a lot of people, myself iincluded, who own and love all the poly guns from Springfield, Glock, and S&W, but continually find themselves coming back to the 1911 for carry.

I would not carry the standard sized Gov't model. You need to look at Commander lengths (some companies like Kimber have versions which are 4" instead of true Commander length of 4.25" but don't worry about that) There's also the Officer's mode to consider. All of these are very fine and perfect for carry. I'll post pics tonight of my Commander. It's a full blown custom from the ground up. It's a Commander frame with modified dust cover to fit an Officer's slide. It's comped which bring the overall length back to the 4.25 commander length. It almost identical in weight to my XD40, though it feels slimmer for carry.

On your rifle... make sure you know what you're getting. Just ask me if you have any questions. The AR platform has become my hobby over the past year or so. I'll be happy to help.

 

[itschris]

Here's the pics I promised. My 1911 is a custom from the ground up... there's pretty much nothing that's been untouched by the gunsmith. This one is built off a lightweight Cold Commander (frame) fitted with an Officer model slide. You can see that the barrel is compensated but the overall length is still a standard Commander length. There's a pic next to my XD and you can see the size. Now I have pretty big hands which is why I opted for the full length grip of the Commander, but you get the idea.







My camera went dead but here's a quick pick of my AR... its what most people will refer to as an M4.. true carbine, relieved barrel, etc. This one has a full free float barrel and 10 inch troy rails. Magpul CTR stock, Troy sights, (optics are off on this pic), you can't see it but it has a Young bolt, Timney trigger, BCG charging handle and other stuff. Again, it's a 14.5 inch barrell with a pinned flash suppressor to make it a legal 16".

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