Computer Optical Out to HT Receiver, HELP

[bluesarebest]

Trying to hook up digital optical from 6 channel onboard soundcard
(in Win200PRO, the output is enabled, digital only) on my computer,
to the DIGITAL2(CD) on my HT receiver. To this point, I have no sound.

There is light at the end of the 12' toslink cable, when it's plugged into the output port on the back of the tower. The cable looks normal with no kinks,
bends or flat spots. As far as the Receiver's manual tells me, the optical port
is enabled for a CD player. Can this port on soundcard be tested? I have no other digital optical devices to try
I'm gonna be PO'd if after all this time, I find the digital out from this MoBo is faulty
Anybody have a tip?

 

[Unregistered]

Did you select CD on your receiver? Optical 1 being assigned to CD is probably the default assignment. You can change it to anything you like. Either way you have to actually select the input that is receiving the digital signal to be able to hear it.

If you already know that and have verified everthing else there are a few other possibilites. What are you playing on the computer?

 

[bluesarebest]

I listen to MP3 files and CD quality streaming radio from my broadband connection. I Finally got my receiver programed properly, but disappointed to discover s/pdif output from 6 channel soundcard is only 2 channel. :-(
Still, it sounds much better on the bigger speakers of the HT mains and I can put away those uncomfortable headphones. Thanks!

 

[Unregistered]

Just FYI, its two channel because mp3 and streaming radio are 2-channel. Just like listening to 2 channel Dolby Digital or analog broadcasts from your stereo, you have to use a decoder that can turn 2 channel into 5.1.

Its a bit more tricky though for the computer. Your soundcard's mixer applet would have to include one. Most do have SRS built-in which is a pseudo-surround that you might like.

 

[Unregistered]

Do all toslink devices output all the channels from the source, or do some devices only output two? Does a DVD player's audio hardware matter if it's got toslink out, or does the toslink take the uncompressed digital without any handling by the player and send it to the receiver where only the receiver processes it?

Thanks

 

[Unregistered]

All channels are carried in a single stream when you use a digital cable, either optical or coax. The format of the stream determines the number of channels. For example, a Dolby Digital stream may include anywhere from 1 to 6 channels. The receiving device tries to identify the type of the stream and then 'decode' it using the rules of that stream type.

For the DVD player, it depends on its settings. Most have a setting like 'bitstream' which means pass the bits unaltered to their destination. In this case, when connected to a receiver, the receiver identifies the type of signal and decodes it. For this case, the dvd player hardware is irrelevant (as far as digital signal processing) because the receiver does all the decoding and the player simply acts as a transport.

If you set the dvd player to output 'pcm' or use only the analog cables, then the dvd player does the decoding from a compressed format like DD 5.1 and converts it to 2 channel. If using the digital out, it will send 2 channel pcm; if using analog outs, it will send a 2 channel analog signal. In this case the dvd player's processing ability has some relevance, but once it gets to the receiver the receiver can apply different processing algorithms, like DPL II to turn the 2 channel into 5.1.

Think of it like this:
digital bitstream out:
-----------------------
dvd player (6 channels from the disc) -> receiver (6 channels) -> speakers (after digital to analog conversion of course). The 6 channels are discrete; ie independent and each channel gets output to its respective speaker.

analog or 2 channel pcm out:
--------------------------------
dvd player (6 channels from the disc) -> dvd player decode to 2 channel -> receiver (2 channel) -> optional: 2 channel to 6 (5.1) if processing mode like DPLII is active -> speakers. The 6 channels started out discrete, but that info is lost as they are all mixed down to 2 channels. A decoder like DPLII makes an educated guess as to what sound goes to which speakers which is not the same as using the original bitstream which precisely specified which sounds go to which speakers.

Besides the fact that most receivers do a better job of decoding than dvd players, another advantage of the all digital path is that now the receiver has the original signal in a digital form and can apply other processing to it such as dynamic compression (usually known as 'late night' or 'midnight mode' on receivers).

All of the above applies equally when using your pc, except that most of the time all the decoding is done in software, unless you have a soundcard that can do it in hardware (and many can).

 

[sea_dragons]

All channels are carried in a single stream when you use a digital cable, either optical or coax. The format of the stream determines the number of channels. For example, a Dolby Digital stream may include anywhere from 1 to 6 channels. The receiving device tries to identify the type of the stream and then 'decode' it using the rules of that stream type.

I'd like to read some more on what different players might do with the audio signal which is decompressed off the digital source; I understand some cheap PC sound cards like SoundBlaster actually reconvert sound into analog, then back into digital, hozing the quality. Do cheap DVD players do the same, or do all DVD players with toslink all leave the original digital audio bitstream undisturbed when they transmit signal to the receivers?

For the DVD player, it depends on its settings. Most have a setting like 'bitstream' which means pass the bits unaltered to their destination. In this case, when connected to a receiver, the receiver identifies the type of signal and decodes it. For this case, the dvd player hardware is irrelevant (as far as digital signal processing) because the receiver does all the decoding and the player simply acts as a transport.

Do I need to look through the manuals to see if this is available on a given player?

I'm scratching my head ... in what case would the DVD player process a digital signal if it is being output in digital optical, or digital coaxial?

If you set the dvd player to output 'pcm' or use only the analog cables, then the dvd player does the decoding from a compressed format like DD 5.1 and converts it to 2 channel.

This doesn't just drop the other channels then, it tries to sum them up and make a R and a L out of it? Assuming you wanted this, why wouldn't you let your receiver do it? do people actually use DVD players to drive speakers?

Besides the fact that most receivers do a better job of decoding than dvd players, another advantage of the all digital path is that now the receiver has the original signal in a digital form and can apply other processing to it such as dynamic compression (usually known as 'late night' or 'midnight mode' on receivers)./

I was hoping this would be the case, I could use the player as pure transport and just get a cheap player until HD-DVD players become available and I start caring about the image output (I don't even have a digital TV at the moment, and expect to update the whole shebang in a few years due to format changes and digital broadcast availability).

Thanks!

 

[Unregistered]

I'd like to read some more on what different players might do with the audio signal which is decompressed off the digital source; I understand some cheap PC sound cards like SoundBlaster actually reconvert sound into analog, then back into digital, hozing the quality. Do cheap DVD players do the same, or do all DVD players with toslink all leave the original digital audio bitstream undisturbed when they transmit signal to the receivers?

The DVD player will not touch the bitstream if you set it to output bitstream.

Do I need to look through the manuals to see if this is available on a given player?

Its always a good idea to read the manual but I have never seen a dvd player that doesnt allow you to specify bitstream or pcm output unless it does not have a built in decoder (which is very rare nowadays). If it doesn't have a built-in decoder, then using the digital output is the same as setting 'bitstream' output for those that do. If it doesn't have a built in decoder AND does not have a digital output, then the only way to get 5.1 output is using 5.1 analog outputs. Some older players only had the 5.1 analog outs. Nowadays even cheap dvd players have a built-in decoder (sometimes only DD and not DTS though), digital outs (optical, coax or both), AND 5.1 analog outs.

I'm scratching my head ... in what case would the DVD player process a digital signal if it is being output in digital optical, or digital coaxial?

Only if the output is set to pcm or you connect only the analog outputs.

This doesn't just drop the other channels then, it tries to sum them up and make a R and a L out of it? Assuming you wanted this, why wouldn't you let your receiver do it? do people actually use DVD players to drive speakers?

Yes, it mixes them. When a recording is done there are multiple tracks - bass, drum, vocals, etc. They are downmixed to 2 channels or N channels if making a surround mix. Same principle. Assuming you actually wanted to listen to a 2 channel rendition of a surround mix, its much better to let the receiver do it. Then you could return to the surround mix simply by changing the listening mode on the receiver.

I was hoping this would be the case, I could use the player as pure transport and just get a cheap player until HD-DVD players become available and I start caring about the image output (I don't even have a digital TV at the moment, and expect to update the whole shebang in a few years due to format changes and digital broadcast availability).

Yes, in general it is better to use the dvd player as a pure transport and let the receiver do all the decoding. DVD players include numerous options and have their own decoders built-in simply to be flexible and be useful to those who don't have a digital in on the receiver. Also because only analog signals may be recorded, you need a way to down-mix to 2 channel analog to allow recording (not because of any technical limitation, but due to copyright infringement issues manufacturers don't provide the ability to record signals output from the digital out.)

Computer dvd players and their interaction with the soundcard are similar but there are a few gotchas that make it even more confusing. We can talk about that if you want, but I figured you are mostly asking about normal home theater components.

 

[sea_dragons]

The DVD player will not touch the bitstream if you set it to output bitstream.

I just need to be sure I figure how to configure whatever I get

I have never seen a dvd player that doesnt allow you to specify bitstream . . . unless it does not have a built in decoder (which is very rare nowadays).

Music to my ears, Mr. Unregistered

Yes, in general it is better to use the dvd player as a pure transport and let the receiver do all the decoding.

That's what I was thinking: get a low-end DVD player with digital audio out because it won't harm the audio, and I haven't the equipment to notice a better image and I don't see much point in acquiring it while HD-DVD looms near and I'll need a new TV soon to handle the digital signals that will soon overtake the spectrum.

Computer dvd players and their interaction with the soundcard are similar but there are a few gotchas that make it even more confusing. We can talk about that if you want, but I figured you are mostly asking about normal home theater components.

The only output from a computer I'm likely to use is an optical digital connection. Alternatively, I'm thinking to archive my music in a lossless compressed format and stream it to a AirPort Express ... anyone have experience with this device and happen to know if it has drawbacks I should know about?

I appreciate the feedback and the advice!
Thanks!

 

[Unregistered]

I have lots of experience with ripping cds and streaming audio.

I've ripped my entire 500 cd collection to wav, saved them to an external hard drive, and then transcoded them all to mp3. I can transcode to any format I like without ever re-ripping because I have the wavs saved.

As far as streaming via wireless...I've not used Airport Express specifically but I would say that wireless is NOT ideal for streaming uncompressed files like wavs. Even if you save the wavs as compressed wavs (lossless) using FLAC, monkey's audio, or any other lossless format, they must be decompressed on the fly and then streamed. In other words, the required bit rate will be the same (~1.4 Mbps). Streaming a single file at a time using 802.11b (max 11Mbs, in practice about 4Mbs) is usually ok if there isn't alot of other traffic on the network. Multiple streams at a time - forget about it.

 

[sea_dragons]

I have lots of experience with ripping cds and streaming audio.

At home to your amp? or via a streaming server to other computers?

I've ripped my entire 500 cd collection to wav, saved them to an external hard drive, and then transcoded them all to mp3. I can transcode to any format I like without ever re-ripping because I have the wavs saved.[/QUATE]

Why code to MP3 if you have the room to keep them lossless in WAV?

As far as streaming via wireless...I've not used Airport Express specifically but I would say that wireless is NOT ideal for streaming uncompressed files like wavs.

AirPort Express streams in Apple Lossless Encoding format . . . it's obviously not the same size as an MP3 but it's also not uncompressed when streamed.

Streaming a single file at a time using 802.11b (max 11Mbs, in practice about 4Mbs) is usually ok if there isn't alot of other traffic on the network. Multiple streams at a time - forget about it.

That's probably why there's not an option to select multiple AirPort Extreme devices as destinations ... though on the 54Mb networks, several compressed streams should be possible if they bothered to enable it. I was looking forward to trying the optical digital signal from the AE unit and avoiding the irritation of mini-stereo jacks.

However, I've just discovered my intended receiver purchase won't support anything but an analog signal to Zone 2, and can't control volume in Zone 2. Thus, the Onkyo system that just got nailed by lightning seems to have a better Zone 2 feature than the Yamaha I'd just made up my mind to buy.

Anyone got advice? Buy a cheaper amp for second room and stick with Yamaha? Just buy another Onkyo? Just what does Yamaha's great total harmonic distortion mean, in the overall picture, should I be looking at different features? I'm planning to use the amp to do all my audio DAC, what are the buzzwords I care about?

Thanks

 

[Unregistered]

At home to your amp? or via a streaming server to other computers?

Both. I have all my music on one machine and when I am in my home office, I usually just use winamp on my main machine to stream the music from the other machine. For the stereo, I currently have a single optical cable connected from my music server directly to the stereo. My laptop is the only device that has a wireless card, so I rarely stream music to it, but it does work fine. Its only an 802.11b card (and so is my router). I think the ideal solution is a device like the Audiotron, but I put off buying it and now they are discontinued...hoping they re-release it because I'm not impressed with the offerings of any other company right now.

However, I've just discovered my intended receiver purchase won't support anything but an analog signal to Zone 2, and can't control volume in Zone 2. Thus, the Onkyo system that just got nailed by lightning seems to have a better Zone 2 feature than the Yamaha I'd just made up my mind to buy.

I've never seen any receiver that will output the digital signal to Zone2.

Anyone got advice? Buy a cheaper amp for second room and stick with Yamaha? Just buy another Onkyo? Just what does Yamaha's great total harmonic distortion mean, in the overall picture, should I be looking at different features? I'm planning to use the amp to do all my audio DAC, what are the buzzwords I care about?

You only need a second amp if your zone2 capable receiver doesn't power the second zone. I wouldn't consider THD specs at all. You will be hard pressed to find any receiver with THD specs greater than .1% (THD < .5% is generally inaudible but the receiver would be pretty poorly designed if it actually had thd that high).

My opinion, buy another Onkyo. I have had many Onkyo and currently have a 502 with sights on a 702 when they are released. All the brands are relatively comparable and it really comes down to personal preference and features desired. I've never liked Yamaha just because they have way too many useless DSP modes for me and the user interface is very cumbersome and hard to use. Just go over to avsforum.com and see the zillions of posts about how to use the damn thing. I read the manual on line and wonder what in the world were they thinking when they designed it? The Onkyos by contrast are simple and straightforward.

 

[sea_dragons]

I've never seen any receiver that will output the digital signal to Zone2.

Well, after a lot of homework, I found one and it's "not cheap".

You only need a second amp if your zone2 capable receiver doesn't power the second zone.

How would I control volume on second zone then?

I wouldn't consider THD specs at all. You will be hard pressed to find any receiver with THD specs greater than .1% (THD < .5% is generally inaudible but the receiver would be pretty poorly designed if it actually had thd that high).

Hmm, I thought this might be important listening to music quietly, to hear more music and less noise. Not so? Oh, well.

My opinion, buy another Onkyo.

You'd be the first person who said, "I listened to both and I decided to go with the Onkyo." Also, the Onkyo I had seemed to have been constructed with some components .5 amp instead of 5 amp, leading to problems until I got it repaired ... I hear from these forums that the Yamaha is more reliably constructed ...?

I have had many Onkyo and currently have a 502 with sights on a 702 when they are released.

OK, what will the 702 do? And, what experience have you had with Yamaha? I can't find anyplace to run them head to head, though I can run Denon against Yamaha ...

All the brands are relatively comparable and it really comes down to personal preference and features desired. I've never liked Yamaha just because they have way too many useless DSP modes for me and the user interface is very cumbersome and hard to use. Just go over to avsforum.com and see the zillions of posts about how to use the damn thing. I read the manual on line and wonder what in the world were they thinking when they designed it? The Onkyos by contrast are simple and straightforward.

The Yamaha seems to have a better system for adjusting the output for your room's dimensions and characteristics, and frankly the modes on my Onkyo made me blink in wonder as to what they were for. I loved the Onkyo, but then, I had little comparison to competitors.

Anyone heard the Onkyo head to head with the Yamaha? I was considering the Yamaha SR-V1400 recently, as it offered volume-controlled zone 2, some THX (the wife likes video), and even lower distortion (heh heh, yes, I realize people can't hear it, but ...?). Maybe I need to take a chill pill, buy separate amp for each room, and get on with it. But I expect to use the amp nearly every day for the next decade, so it's a big deal to me.

Thanks!

 

[Unregistered]

How would I control volume on second zone then?

From the receiver, same as zone1.

You'd be the first person who said, "I listened to both and I decided to go with the Onkyo." Also, the Onkyo I had seemed to have been constructed with some components .5 amp instead of 5 amp, leading to problems until I got it repaired ... I hear from these forums that the Yamaha is more reliably constructed ...?

They key here is 'on these forums'. Lots of fans of each brand. It's a personal preference kind of thing. I just recently gave away my 8 year old ProLogic Onkyo and it is still in mint condition and going strong - no reliability or build construction issues for me. I believe all the mid tier brands - Onkyo, Yamaha, Denon, H/K are comparable. I only recommend Onkyo from my own experience.

OK, what will the 702 do? And, what experience have you had with Yamaha? I can't find anyplace to run them head to head, though I can run Denon against Yamaha ...

The 702 is THX Select certified, has pre-outs for all channels, and a bit more power. Lower end Onkyos don't offer pre-outs and I want them so I have the option of using an external amp. My experience with Yamaha is entirely second hand. I have a few friends who have one, and they love it (personal preference again. . I wouldn't knock them, I just don't care for all the dsp modes cause I know I won't use them. Lots of fans though and its not like Yamaha is a new comer to the field - they've been building receivers for decades.

I have read the manuals on-line and compare them to my own experience using the Onkyo. I didn't like what I read, but again its what you get used to. I've never had any issues with Onkyo and right now I'm sticking with them.

The Yamaha seems to have a better system for adjusting the output for your room's dimensions and characteristics, and frankly the modes on my Onkyo made me blink in wonder as to what they were for. I loved the Onkyo, but then, I had little comparison to competitors.

You are referring to YPAO. Onkyo doesn't offer anything like that yet, but it is rumored that it will be added to the 602 or 702 (from emails from customer support I've seen posted on another site). This is not a big deal for me, I prefer to do it by hand anyway.

I'm surprised that you say you had too many modes on your Onkyo. Onkyo offers the fewest extra DSP modes of any brand. Yamaha the most - too many for me. I cant see the need for 50 dsp modes with 71 variations. I only ever use the 'standard' dsp modes like DPL II, and occasionally 'all channel stereo'.

 

[sea_dragons]

From the receiver, same as zone1.

The manual says of Yamaha's zone 2 on the 650 that it can only receive an analog signal, and that no volume control exists on the amp. The choices are unpowered and amplified, but no volume control. I thought amplification without volume control was a bizarre option, but there it was in black and white.

They key here is 'on these forums'. Lots of fans of each brand. It's a personal preference kind of thing. I just recently gave away my 8 year old ProLogic Onkyo and it is still in mint condition and going strong - no reliability or build construction issues for me.

Heh, that's what I had -- an 8yo Onkyo! model 727. Now that my sources are going to digital output though, I have sort of a pickle: if I want multiple zones, I have to stick with analog! But digital will give me the most fidelity of signal for my first zone. Nuts.

I believe all the mid tier brands - Onkyo, Yamaha, Denon, H/K are comparable. I only recommend Onkyo from my own experience.

I'd feel a lot better if the shops in my area allowed head-to-head comparison between Onkyo, Yamaha, and Marantz. Reading about Marantz here, I hunted for a dealer, and discovered that (a) you can't service it in Houston and (b) dealers here seem to be installers with no showrooms, so I can't hear it, much less hear it head to head. It's like Billy Joel says: there's a new band in town, but you can't catch the sound, 'cause it's only in a magazine ....

The 702 is THX Select certified, has pre-outs for all channels, and a bit more power.

I can't wait :-( I'm without an amp now :-(

Lower end Onkyos don't offer pre-outs and I want them so I have the option of using an external amp.

I'm thinking that with all my sound coming from digital sources (making all the done 2 stuff unavailable unless you get to outlandishly expensive units), the second zone will have to have its own amp, and unfortunately, its own sources.

My experience with Yamaha is entirely second hand. I have a few friends who have one, and they love it (personal preference again. . I wouldn't knock them, I just don't care for all the dsp modes cause I know I won't use them. Lots of fans though and its not like Yamaha is a new comer to the field - they've been building receivers for decades.

I have read the manuals on-line and compare them to my own experience using the Onkyo. I didn't like what I read, but again its what you get used to. I've never had any issues with Onkyo and right now I'm sticking with them.

What did you read in the manuals?

You are referring to YPAO. Onkyo doesn't offer anything like that yet, but it is rumored that it will be added to the 602 or 702 (from emails from customer support I've seen posted on another site). This is not a big deal for me, I prefer to do it by hand anyway.

The oddball issues of my room made me want to set by hand delays shorter in some cases than the amp allowed, so I'm hoping the automated one will get it "just done right".

I'm surprised that you say you had too many modes on your Onkyo. Onkyo offers the fewest extra DSP modes of any brand. Yamaha the most - too many for me. I cant see the need for 50 dsp modes with 71 variations. I only ever use the 'standard' dsp modes like DPL II, and occasionally 'all channel stereo'.

The only ones I use are stereo and prologic, I have no idea why one would pick arena vs some other room shape, and with the delays not right between the speakers due to the limits of the amp's willingness to take what I was telling it about my room, I basically got irritated with it.

I think I've decided to ditch interest in running the second room off the main amp, and go with digital input from all the sources I'm setting up. My problem is that the "finalists" I'd like to audition are not in the same building.

Anyone got thoughts on buying online? apparently, saving hundreds of bucks is possible, but there's the warranty scare ....