Component Video Cables - Definitive Guide

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Guest

Guest
<font color='#000000'>Great article about component cables that:

   - covers all the relevant info you need to know
   - separates fact from fiction
   - includes formulas and numbers (geeks rejoice!)
   - is understandable by laymen and engineers alike

This article showed me what really mattered and what was just BS, when I picked out cables.

Thanks Steve!</font>
 
G

Guest

Guest
<font color='#000000'>What about John Rich's comments at AA and AR? He seems to think that the article was not that good.

Curious.</font>
 
S

steve

Audioholic
<font color='#000000'>I do not have the time, desire, reason or patience to debate Jon. &nbsp;He is entitled to his opinions and please keep in mind, they are his opinions peppered with the opinions of his deep-rooted followers.

If you read the end of my article, you'll note there are &nbsp;references at the bottom that include textbooks and other reliable, sound sources. &nbsp;Jon admits that his information comes from his personal experiences and from people he knows with knowledge about RF. &nbsp;Take both for what they are worth as both are valid. &nbsp;What would textbooks be without applied knowledge? &nbsp;

I’ll be the first to admit that there's a few areas in the article that can be better explained or reworded and in time, I’ll update it to do so. &nbsp;However, as far as I’m concerned, there is no information in the article that is totally wrong or misleading, as Jon will lead you to believe. &nbsp;

This article was not written to get into abstract math and theory that will loose most reader’s interest. &nbsp;As it stands now, it took up almost 30 pages in Word. &nbsp;How much longer should it be to dot all the I’s and please everyone? &nbsp;For that reason, there are obviously things that are left out and not explained. &nbsp;Rest assured that it was intentional, not an oversight. &nbsp;

The handful of equations and examples are provided to help define where some of the fundamental principles come from. &nbsp;I realize that they are not near all the equations that can be used, nor do they contain all the information that exists to discuss cables. &nbsp;The article is an applied overview as it pertains to component video cables. &nbsp;There are references at the end of the article that indicate where the information came from. &nbsp;So you can be assured that it is not just voices in my head or my buddies in the industry.

I will gladly update the article in areas where clarification is needed or rewording is required, but I’m not going to exhume what little precious time I have in a debate with Jon and his followers. &nbsp;I have no issues with the man, nor do I have any reason to bash him as he has bashed me. &nbsp;I’m sure he has his motivations to write what he does, whatever they may be.

My only problem with the whole thing is when people make it personal. &nbsp;I don’t care if someone disagrees with what I’ve written, but I see no reason why so many people have to fling insults around. &nbsp;How sad is it that we cannot have constructive criticism in place of what is now destructive.

Look folks, I spent a great deal of time on this article and used a number of valid and sound sources as reference. &nbsp;I didn’t get paid one bloody cent for writing it and never will, and I even got my wonderful and patient wife pissed off because I spent some much freegen time on my computer doing so. &nbsp;I admit that I’m not the best at grammar, but who is? &nbsp;Most of the comments I read in forums contain multiple spelling and grammar errors far worse then what’s in my article. &nbsp;

Are we all going to focus on the specs in each other’s eyes or the log that’s in our own?

There are many areas that I don’t agree with Jon, especially when it comes to the solder terminations and the RCA connectors, but again, I’m not going to spend my day and night in debate. &nbsp;I have a life, a family and a career that are much more important and fruitful.

Folks, read the article for what its worth and make your own decisions when buying a component video cable. &nbsp;Just keep in mind that there are many people and companies that are willing and able to mislead you into spending more money then you should and believing things that are not real.

Thanks for all the attention to the article.

Happy reading</font>
 
G

Guest

Guest
<font color='#000000'>One of the things that I have found with Jon Risch is that he believes his personal opinion to be fact. This is simply not the case. He has also stated that he is a EE, with a major in acoustics. This may be the true, but he obviously either didn't attend some of his classes, or just didn't take the ones that apply to component video cables.
Having numerous years of experience in RF with an emphasis on Microwave, I am certainly not convinced that Jon Risch is an expert on video component cables, or even audio band cables.
Jon Risch has supported the myth that wire &quot;burns-in&quot;. This is a total outright fallacy, and the support he gives for this, given his education, tells me he does not now how to separate physchological effects from reality.</font>
 
G

Guest

Guest
<font color='#000000'>See my responses in CAPS.


This is a critique of the article by Steve DellaSala, &quot;Component Video Cables - The Definitive Guide&quot; at the Audioholics website:

http://www.audioholics.com/techtip....les.php

This article has been praised by some as &quot;great&quot;, and touted as the last word on video cable issues. Well, I read it, and noticed a lot of questionable portions in the article. I quote some of these, and respond here in this post. Note that I have not necessarily picked out all the problem spots, just some that I have found to be sticking out more than others.

QUESTIONABLE TO YOU AND YOUR SO CALLED KNOWLEDGE BASE.

All of this post constitutes my own personal opinion, and is based on my understanding of cable issues.

NOTICE HIS DISCLAIMER OF &quot;OWN PERSONAL OPITION&quot; NOT BASED ON ENGINEERING TRUTHS BUT MORE CONVOLUTED HALF TRUTHS SPREAD BETTER THAN NOOTHER THAN MR. RISCH.

Section 1.0, toward the end
[ There are a number of concepts and misconceptions about component video cables that will be addressed in this article, many of which will be proved or disproved mathematically. ]

Only, he does not show the math for a great many of the things he writes about, instead, he states it as if it were a given. Some of the math is only indirectly related to the subject at hand, or may be totally irrelevant.

THE MATH WAS USED AS A REFERENCE TO ENGINEERING EXPLAINATIONS. &nbsp;I AM NOT SURE HOW YOU CAN CLAIM THAT THE MATH EQUATIONS HAVE NO RELLIVANCE.

Section 1.1, toward the end
[ Cable lengths less than 30 meters have no effect of overall impedance. ]

This is not necessarily true, and in any case, is contradicted later in the article.

THIS CAN BE MISINTERPRETED AS IT IS A FUNCTION OF FREQUENCY THAT WILL DETERMINE THIS SO I CAN SEE SOME OF YOUR CONCERN HERE.


Also, he goes into characteristic impedance formula's for infinitely long cables (Section 1.2), but have already stated they are not relevant.
?


WHERE DID HE STATE THEY WERE NOT RELEVANT? &nbsp;I BELIEVE HE STATED THAT MOST VIDEO CABLE RUNS ARE SHORTER THAN 30FT FOR MOST PEOPLES SYSTEM. &nbsp;THESE LISTED EQUATIONS ARE ALL FACTUAL, RELEVANT AND BASED ON REAL ENGINEERING PRINCIPLES, NOT SNAKE OIL.

The whole impedance section is confusing and self-contradictory.

I CAN SEE HOW YOU WOULD HAVE A PROBLEM WITH IT. &nbsp;THERE IS NO MAGIC HERE, JUST FACTUAL DATA.

Sec. 2.0
[ Furthermore, strand jumping is another made up term used by manufacturers to justify using less expensive
solid conductor wire for their cable assemblies, as discussed in Section 3.1.1. ]

I am not aware of any manufacturer that uses strand jumping in extolling the virtues of their video cables.

TRUE, THERE ARE LESS FALLACIES AND MARKETING TATICS USED IN VIDEO CABLE MARKETING. &nbsp;THIS IS PARTLY TO DO WITH THE FACT THAT VIDEO IS NOT SUBJECTIVE. &nbsp;IT IS BASED ON STANDARDS (NTSC, ETC) AND THUS EVERY PARAMETER THAT CAN BE MEASURED OR SEEN CAN BE EXPLAINED TECHNICALLY. &nbsp;SOUND IS MORE SUBJECTIVE, LESS STANDARDS ARE IN PLACE FOR QUANTIFYING SOUND, AND THUS MORE MARKETING CLAIMS CAN BE MADE AGAINST THEM. &nbsp;THIS IS CLEARLY EVIDENT WITH SUCH FALLACIES AS STRAND JUMPING, CABLE BREAK IN, ELEVATORS, ETC. &nbsp;THIS WAS THE POINT I BELIEVE THE AUTHOR WAS TRYING TO MAKE.

With this in mind, I find it odd that this would be mentioned in an article on video cables, if none of the manufacturer's make any such claims.

AGAIN SEE MY RESPONSE ABOVE.

Strand jumping has been brought up for analog audio IC's by a few manufacturer's, but not very many.

SHOW ME ONE MANUFACTURER OTHER THAN AN AUDIO CABLE ONE THAT MENTIONS THIS. &nbsp;SHOW ME ONE CREDIBLE ENGINEERING TEXT BOOK THAN METIONS THIS.
HOW COULD STRAND JUMPING HAPPEN?
IF YOU HAVE A CABLE CARRYING THE SAME SIGNAL ON ADJACENT STRANDS, HOW WILL IT JUMP? &nbsp;ALL OF THE STRANDS ARE CARRYING RELATIVELY THE SAME POTENTIAL, THEY HAVE NO REASON TO JUMP. &nbsp;ALSO, JUMPING AN OXIDE AND AIR GAP IS FAR MORE RESISTIVE THAN TO JUST CONTINUE THE PATH DOWN THE CABLE. &nbsp;SINCE ELECTRICITY TRAVELS THE PATH OF LEAST RESISTANCE, IT WILL NOT JUMP. &nbsp;NEXT I AM SURE YOU WILL TELL US THIS STRAND JUMPING LEADS TO SIGNAL RETIFICATION. &nbsp;HOW CAN A LINEAR ELEMENT CAUSE SUCH A NON LINEARITY? &nbsp;ONLY IN JONS WORLD, OR THE WORLD OF AUDIOQUEST, OR FANTASY WORLD. &nbsp;PERHAPS THEY ARE THE SAME WORLD?

Also, this is the first place that mention is made of &quot;solid wire costs less to manufacture than stranded wire&quot; for video cables. This is so mis-guided and ill-informed, I can not begin to make any sense of it.
While there may be a very slight premium to use stranded wires in a coaxial cable, the cost difference would be SO slight as to defy any logical reason to base a design on that cost factor, the mere fact of having a custom cable made would completely obviate any reasons for doing so, virtually no significant cost difference for solid vs. stranded once we are talking about custom cables.

I AGREE WITH YOU HERE. &nbsp;I DON'T SEE MUCH OF A COST DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO FOR ONE INDIVIDUAL CABLE. &nbsp;BUT THINK OF IT ON A MUCH LARGER SCALE. &nbsp;A CABLE SUPPLIER SUPPLYING WIRES TO MULTIPLE MANUFACTURERS CAN SAVE ALOT OF MONEY IF THEY SELL EACH COMPANY ON THE CHEAPER ALTERNATIVE. &nbsp;THERE MAY BE SOME TRUTH HERE.

See: &quot;The Cost of High End Audio Cables&quot;
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/cables/messages/34038.html
for a bit of an explanation on this.

Additionally, I have spoken with more than one RF engineer who was adamant that solid wires made for better coaxial cables for RF purposes, as the stranded wires could &quot;spread&quot; when the cable was flexed, and move within the insulation, and a solid wire would not do that as much. They also preferred a solid insulator to a foamed one for the same reasons. I doubt that it would be as much of an issue for the really stiff foamed insulation's, such as foamed FEP teflon, not nearly as soft as foamed PE, etc.

EITHER WIRE WILL WORK WELL FOR VIDEO APPLICATIONS IN QUESTION, AND ESPECIALLY WELL FOR AUDIO FREQUENCIES. THE OVERALL CONSTRUCTION OF THE WIRE IS OF MORE IMPORTANCE.
&nbsp;
See:
http://www.gepco.com/whatsnew/pr_050102_HDfoamcoax.htm
for an article on making Hi-Definition coaxial cable for HDTV.
Note that the article was published in &quot;Broadcast Engineering&quot; magazine.

This web site says that solid wire coax has less losses than stranded wire coax:
http://tcns.thaicom.net/RF/Coax.asp

THIS IS TOO GENERAL OF A STATEMENT. &nbsp;EQUIVALENT GAUGE STRANDED WIRE WILL HAVE LESS AC RESISTIVE LOSSES (SKIN EFFECT) THAN EQUIVALENT GAUGE SOLID CORE WIRE BECAUSE THE OVERAL SURFACE AREA OF THE STRANDED WIRE IS GREATER. &nbsp;


SEC 2.1
[ ....or a poorly made component video cables are used that are not true 75-ohm, the lower impedance value of these cables can result in a loss of video signal do to a mismatch in impedance. ]

This statement is not precise enough to be able to comment on very much, except that it gets repeated in other forms later on. Impedance mismatches will not cause an overall level drop, nor will they cause a loss of the video signal as a whole. What an impedance mismatch WILL do, is to cause partial signal reflections that bounce back down the line. Some if this is ALWAYS going on in any RCA plug based video cable, so it is really a matter of degree. Proper impedance cables can help minimize the amount and severity of these reflections, but will not eliminate them. More on this later.

OH OK SO I GUESS RETURN LOSS (WHICH IS A FUNCTION OF IMPEDANCE) IS NOT IMPORTANT FOR SIGNAL INTEGRITY. &nbsp;I &nbsp;GUESS YOU SHOULD TELL MICROWAVE ENGINEERS TO STOP DESIGNING IMPEDANCE TRANSFORMERS TO COMPENSATE FOR IMPEDANCE MISMATCHES DOWN THEIR TRANSMISSION LINES SINCE THERE WILL BE NO RESULTANT POWER LOSS FROM ALL THE REFLECTION. &nbsp;EVERYONE THROW YOUR SMITH CHARTS AWAY. &nbsp;QUARTER WAVE WHAT?
THE TRUTH:
IF THE STANDING WAVE RATIO (1+PO)/(1-PO) &nbsp;IS NOT UNITY, THUS NOT PERFECT IMPEDANCE MATCH, &nbsp;THE DRIVING POINT IMPEDANCE OF A LINE IN GENERAL IS COMPLEX VALUE DEPENDING ON THE LENGTH OF THE LINE. &nbsp; THE LARGER THE VALUE OF SWR THE MORE RESULTANT POWER LOSS. &nbsp;



SEC 2.3
[ Mismatched impedance is one of the most common and most frequently experienced sources of signal degradation. This phenomenon occurs when a 75-ohm signal encounters different impedances through its signal path, usually on the order of 35-ohm or 50-ohm for Home Theater applications. It can occur in video cables that do not use true 75-ohm RCA connectors, .... ]

Well, that would be great, except that there is no such thing as a true 75 ohm RCA phono connector! More on this later, in response to section 3.5

HMM SO I GUESS YOU CAN'T DESIGN A 75 OHM CONNECT BY A FUNCTION OF DIAMETERS GIVEN IN THE AUTHORS EQUATION. &nbsp;I SUPPOSE THAT ENGINEERING PRICIPLE THAT HAS BEEN USED FOR OVER A CENTURY IS FLAWED. &nbsp;THANKS FOR SHARING THAT WITH US JON.

Also in section 2.3, we are lead through a series of equations, but what he fails to point out completely when discussing the equations, is that the signal losses due to reflections will tend to occur ONLY at certain frequencies related to the effective electrical length of the cable, and will NOT affect ALL frequencies the same. It is entirely possible that for a short cable (2M or less), NONE of the frequencies carried by a video signal would be affected by any of the reflections, unless they bounced back and forth many times.

HUH? &nbsp;DOES IT MATTER? &nbsp;LOSS AT ANY RELIVANT FREQUENCIES WITHIN THE VIDEO BANDWIDTH IS NOT A GOOD THING. &nbsp;DOES HE REALLY NEED TO SPELL EVERYTHING OUT TO YOU?

In order for this to occur, there would have to be impedance discontinuities at both ends of the video cable, and they would have to be fairly severe at both ends.

HOW DO YOU QUANTIFY THIS? &nbsp;DOES IT HAVE TO BE MORE SEVERE THAN THE RESULTANT LOSS YOU CLAIM BY STRAND JUMPING? &nbsp;WILL IT HAVE LESS OF AN IMPACT THAT IF YOU ELEVATED YOUR CABLES OFF THE FLOOR? &nbsp;OR WAIT, WILL IT IMPACT LESS THAN CABLE BREAK IN?
PLEASE QUANTIFY ALL OF THOSE AND SHOW US YOUR MEASUREMENTS AND CALCULATIONS. &nbsp;THEN SUBMIT THEM TO AES AND LETS SEE WHAT HAPPENS.

SEC 2.4
[ Skin effect is sound engineering phenomenon that can be defined mathematically, however as outlined in the following examples, it has minimal effects at low frequencies within the range of audio and video cables. ]

This section is also written in a very confused manner.

First, we are lead to believe that skin effect has no consequence, yet, in the first side bar &quot;Pursuing the Truth&quot;, we are told that: &quot;When a copper conductor is plated with pure silver with a thickness of 50 microns, 92% of the current density will be in the silver. Since silver has a 10% gain in conductance compared to copper, a copper wire plated with silver will have less signal loss especially at longer lengths, thus minimizing skin effect.&quot;

So which is it? Can skin effect be ignored, or it is a factor, and silver plating will reduce it? He seems to be saying both things.

HMM I SUPPOSE I CAN SEE HOW THE WORDING HERE CAN BE CONFUSING.

Later on in this section, he talks about the increase in AC resistance that skin effect causes, and later the power loss from skin effect.

However, these two kinds of losses are not the only effects that result from the skin effect, phase shift also occurs, and skin effect is responsible for forcing the current out toward the surface of the wire, even at audio frequencies, much less video. So skin effect DOES make the surface of the wire more important than the rest of the wire, and the condition of the surface of the wire, in terms of impurities, or poor metallic crystal structure, are going to have a potential effect. None of these aspects is even considered or brought up.

THATS BECAUSE THE SO CALLED &quot;IMPURITIES&quot; THAT YOU MENTION ARE NOT SIGNIFICANT. &nbsp;IF THEY WERE, THEN WHY DO COMPANIES THAT DESIGN ULTRA HIGH EXPENSIVE AND ACCURATE TEST EQUIPMENT USE NORMAL COPPER COAX CABLES FOR THEIR EQUIPMENT? &nbsp;HIGH POWER RF APPLICATIONS, THE SAME THING. &nbsp;NOBODY USES MAGICAL SILVER WIRE OTHER THAN SO CALLED EXOTIC SPEAKER CABLE VENDORS. &nbsp;JUST HOW PURE IS THEIR WIRE? &nbsp;HAS ANYONE MEASURED IT?

Finally, it is said that the frequency ranges of video (and audio, once again, trying to squeeze in a subject that is not the avowed topic of the article) is not subject to skin effect.

Well, at 20 kHz, the skin depth for copper is 0.46 mm, or about 5/64's of an inch. The diameter of a 19 ga wire would have this depth at the center of the wire, and while this kind of assumption is often made for what size wire will be &quot;free&quot; from skin effect, it is just another way of providing a benchmark for comparison. Most folks who have worked with audio cables find that a 19 ga. wire has problems, and that smaller diameter wires are needed to avoid audible problems, whether they are due to the skin effect, or other issues.

IS THIS BASED ON OBJECTIVE MEASUREMENTS AND LISTENING? &nbsp;OH WAIT, YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN DBT. &nbsp;YOU CANNOT PROMOTE MAGIC WITHOUT FAITH.

One can certainly see that there will be some significant skin effect at video frequencies for any reasonable size of coax center wire, even RG-59 types with a 20 or 22 ga. center wire.

SURE AND THE AUTHOR STATES SEVERAL TECHNIQUES TO MINIMIZE THIS. &nbsp;HE NEVER STATED THAT SKIN EFFECT IS IRRELEVANT AT VIDEO FREQUENCIES. &nbsp;IN FACT IF YOU PICK UP ANY ENGINEERING BOOK THAT TALKS ABOUT SKIN EFFECT,THEY DON'T EVEN CONSIDER IT UNTIL AT LEAST 50 KHZ OR MORE. &nbsp;

End of SEC 2.4
[ Pursuing the Truth: Most cable vendors use multi stranded wire as opposed to solid core conductor. Multi Stranded wire actually helps to reduce skin effect since the combination of strands act as a larger surface area then an equivalent gauge solid core conductor. ]

The amount of increased surface area for a stranded wire is NOT that much greater, as the skin effect will still manifest on the stranded wire bundle AS A WHOLE. The individual wires WILL NOT each act independently unless they are BOTH individually insulated, AND woven in and out. This kind of wire is called Litz wire. I know of no vendor that uses a Litz wire for the center wire.

ACTUALLY THE STRANDED WIRE WITHOUT INSULATION ON EACH STRAND IS STILL CONSIDERED LITZ WIRE AND YES THE SURFACE AREA IS GREATER. &nbsp;PICK UP A POWER RF BOOK AND YOU CAN READ MORE ON THIS.

The only increase in surface area that a stranded wire has is due to the extra area of the rounded outside edges
of the stranded bundle. This is not a huge increase in surface area, since the skin effect is still pushing the current out toward the surface of the bundle as a whole.
You might see a 10-15% increase in conductivity for skin frequencies, due to stranded wires vs. a solid wire of the exact same overall diameter as the stranded bundle.

Yet again, what is the big deal if skin effect is not an issue in the first place? Either it IS relevant, and stranded vs. solid and silver plating vs. bare copper are then relevant, OR they are a moot point.

Doesn't this sound exactly like the very snake-oil they rankle about? Touting certain features (stranded wires, and silver plating) as relevant, even though they say in the same breath, that it doesn't really matter according to the calculations?

AGAIN, THEY DONT MATTER FOR AUDIO, THEY START MATTERING FOR VIDEO. &nbsp;YOU LOVE TO TWIST WORDS DONT YOU JON?

BTW, as for &quot;Most cable vendors use multi stranded wire...&quot;, I am not sure this is actually true for video cables, it certainly may be for audio cables. However, this article was supposed to be about video cables.

SEC 2.4, 3rd &quot;Pursuing the Truth&quot; sidebar, 3rd section, where they talk about terminating the cable.

The pictures at the bottom of the 3rd page in the article ( http://www.audioholics.com/techtip....s_3.php )
are used as examples of a &quot;good&quot; solder connection, and a bad solder connection.

In my experience, what constitutes a good solder connection for RF is a nice smooth, even solder profile, with no sudden discontinuities. The wire or braid solder joint surface should smoothly &quot;flow&quot; into the connector termination, with no kinks or sudden bends or large blobs of solder.

Based on that criteria, the cable on the right is not so bad, it could be improved on, but it makes no really awful mistakes. It may look superficially less than tidy, but the main concepts regarding solder joints for RF that I am talking about have not been badly violated.
No, it is not good to melt the insulation, but when we are already in the region of the termination, the exact spacing is not being maintained anyway, so this is being rather anal about the subject.

I note with interest, after all the talk about impedance matching, and proper soldering technique, they use as an example of a &quot;good&quot; RCA plug, one that has a built-in impedance discontinuity. Note the half open inner barrel section, where the area for soldering the center wire is open. This section is a different diameter than the rest of the barrel, and so, MUST present a different impedance than the rest of the barrel. So much for being truly concerned with all of the details.

SEC 3.1
[ For component video cables, the conductor is usually made with stranded wire for improved flexibility and increased surface area. ]

We have already dealt with the &quot;increased surface area&quot; myth promoted in this article. But there is an even bigger gaffe to come:

[ The use of different materials for the primary conductor becomes apparent with video cables above 10 meters, as signal losses increases due to conductor resistance. ]

Increased conductor resistance is not really the primary reason for losses in a coaxial cable at RF frequencies.
As was pointed out earlier, RF tends to travel on the surface of the conductor, and so, the absolute gauge of the wire has little to do with these types of losses.
While the video signal is not, strictly speaking, RF energy, it will not have the kinds of signal losses due to sheer cable resistance that is implied here.

Then again, according to this article, all we have to do is silver plate the wire, and no more fuss!

Much of the loss in a coaxial cable at RF frequencies is due to dielectric losses, and a superior quality dielectric will minimize these losses.

So what about baseband video signals that are not RF?

Just as a point of information, the losses for a 100 feet of high performance cable at 10 MHz are: for an RG-59 (with a 22 ga. center wire) are 0.9 dB, for an RG-6 (18 ga. center wire) the losses are 0.7 dB, and for an RG-11 (14 ga. center wire) the losses are 0.5 dB.

This compares similar construction and materials, so as to eliminate as many variables as possible, except center wire ga.

These are very small differences in signal losses, and the actual materials and construction can often make more of a difference than the wire gauge. RG part numbers are not that specific, see:
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/cables/messages/25155.html

In the &quot;Pursuing the Truth&quot; sidebar:
[ Consequently, cryogenically freezing the cable does not slow down or prevent oxidation either (unless it remains in the frozen state). The process itself only produces a temporarily cold cable. Once the cable is warmed, it is the same cable it was before being ‘frozen.’ ]

While this may or may not be true for the oxygen free aspect, most of the folks who cryogenically treat the cables do not necessarily do so to improve the oxygen free content of the cables, rather, they are doing it to try and improve the crystalline structure of the metallic conductors. Metallurgy has shown that some sort of an effect does take place in many instances when a metal is cryogenically treated, so to say that nothing has changed is a bit much to be saying without any further qualification.

GIVE ME A BREAK. &nbsp;YOU ARE DEALING WITH SOMETHING SO INSIGNIFICANT AND SO FAR BELOW THE NOISE FLOOR AND THRESHOLD OF HUMAN HEARING. &nbsp;THE INDORSEMENT OF SUCH A FALLACY IS FAR MORE MISLEADING THAN ANY TECHNICAL ERRORS IN THE ARTICLE IN QUESTION. &nbsp;

I have never seen any claims about cryo treatment being for the purpose of improving or maintaining the oxygen free aspect of the copper conductors. This would seem to be a red herring brought up to discredit cryo treatment without actually discussing the relevant issues associated with cryo.

THERE ARE NO RELEVANT ISSUES, PENDING YOUR SANITY.

SEC 3.1.1
&quot;Pursuing the Truth&quot; sidebar,
[ Be forewarned that some cable manufacturers use a solid conductor primarily for cost purposes. Through their clever marketing schemes, they use made up terms such as, &quot;Strand Jumping&quot;. By using this made up term, they attempt to justify the use of less expensive coaxial cable for their component video cable assembly, ... ]

I have already dealt with the cost bugaboo, so now let us address the strand jumping issue here.

Skin effect, you remember, that non-issue effect that was reduced by stranded wire (false) and silver plating (somewhat)? Well, if the current in the wire, the actual electron flow IS the current, is forced toward the outside of the wire, then what happens when a stranded wire is not perfectly aligned all along the length of the stranded bundle? Some of the strands will be on the outside, and then end up on the inside of the bundle.

In order for that strand of copper that was carrying the HF currents while on the surface to follow the skin effect current density profile, it HAS to &quot;hand-off&quot; to a strand that is nearer the surface of the stranded wire bundle. The eddy currents that have formed and that are responsible for the skin effect in the first place, will cause this to occur. So skin effect WILL be instrumental in promoting some amount of &quot;strand jumping&quot; .

The various forms of stranding geometry as shown in the article will reduce the possibility of strand jumping, because if a given strand does not wander in and out of the overall bundle, but maintains it's place within the bundle, then there is less of an amount of skin effect current density differences to provide the impetus for any strand jumping to occur.

However, that does not completely eliminate all possibility of strand jumping, nor does it render the reason for it (skin effect) an inconsequential effect.

HMM SOUNDS LIKE ALOT OF BLACK MAGIC AND SNAKE OIL TO ME. &nbsp;HOW COME I NEVER HEARD OF SUCH CONCRETE ENGINEERING THEORY IN MY 6 YEARS OF ENGINEERING SCHOOL. &nbsp;PERHAPS THIS TOPIC IS TOO COMPLEX AND THUS RESERVED FOR A FEW CABLE VENDORS TO WRITE ABOUT ON THEIR WEBSITES. &nbsp;LETS JUST MAKE SURE THAT EVERYONE IS SELLING THE EXACT SAME STORY SO IT SOUNDS LEGIT. &nbsp;OK? &nbsp;GOOD. &nbsp;

SEC 3.1.1
[ Resistance values of cables becomes significant in lengths well over 2-meters. If you are installing a custom Home Theater System and must run lengths of coaxial cable that greatly exceed 2-meters, component video cables made from higher gauge wire are typically recommended as they will have a lower resistance and therefore, will minimize video signal loss. ]

Well, now we are getting confused again. First, it was anything over 30 M, and I would argue about that.

But I can not possibly see how anything over 2M (about 6 feet), is going to need a huge RG-11 coax to avoid video signal losses! Totally off the wall, and inconsistent with earlier statements as well.

After pooh-poohing a 0.047 dB power loss due to skin effect, he is now saying that an amplitude loss of 0.04 dB (from RG-11 down to RG-59 for a 10 foot length at 10 MHz) is significant? Again, not consistent criteria here.

SEC 3.1.2
[ The grounding diameter is not related to the ohm
rating since in theory the ground does not carry a current. What is important is the ground shields ability to complete the circuit, protect the conductor to minimize signal leakage and shield the assembly from EMI. ]

Whoa! The coax braid does not carry a current? But in the very same section, he says that the braid completes the circuit! Well, which is it?

OK I CAN SAY THIS SECTION IS WORDED A BIT CONFUSING AND MISLEADING. &nbsp;THE AUTHOR SHOULD GO BACK AND MAKE CORRECTIONS HERE.

I can tell you, the 'shield' braid is the ground return, and does indeed carry current and complete the circuit.
See:
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/cables/messages/503.html
for more on this.

SEC 3.1.2
[ By using two 95% copper braids, the amount of copper is substantially increased and the resistance therefore decreased, thus reducing the chance of current flow and noise in the cable. ]

Whoa ! Again! Reducing resistance does not reduce the current flow, in fact, it reduces the voltage potential between two video components by lowering the resistance, which actually increases current flow in the braid.

SEC 3.3
Under the dielectric section, he fails to mention that teflon also comes in a gas-injected/foamed formula, and would have dielectric constants as low or lower than GI/foamed PE, all other things being equal.

[ As seen by their constants, neither Nylon (4.0 to 4.6) or PVC (3.0 to 8.0) make effective dielectrics for any cable length, yet they are still used by some component video cable Manufacturers due to their low cost. ]

In so far as I know, no one currently uses PVC (or nylon) for the dielectric in a video cable. PVC has not been in general use as an insulator in a coaxial cable for many years, and it would indeed be a travesty if someone used it for video cables. I am personally not fond of it for audio use either.

However, the implication is that some vendor out there IS using PVC, when in fact, this does not seem to be the case.

SEC 3.4
[ This method also preserves the diameter ratio of the dielectric and conductor at the end of the cable where it has been cut and soldered onto the connector housing, thus preserving the 75-ohm impedance of the cable/connector combination from tip-to-tip. ]

As has already been commented on, this is not the case, the portion of the RCA plug inner barrel that is cut-out for access to the center pin changed the diameter of the plug along half of the plug for that length. Why this is ignored, when much is made of smaller issues, is a mystery.

SEC 3.5, bottom of page 5
[ It turns out that the RCA connector on the left has the correct diameter ratios to create a 75-ohm connection, where as the one on the right is adequate for a 50-ohm connection such as that found in audio signals. ]

Whoa! This would be funny if it weren't stated in an entirely serious manner. Apparently, the writer has swallowed some manufacturer's hype about &quot;true 75 ohm RCA plugs&quot;, which is ironic given that the avowed purpose of the article is to provide solid information about video cables, rather than to parrot what has been hyped.

Bottom line: no matter what the RCA plug itself is doing, the female RCA jack is not 75 ohms impedance. Period. End of discussion.

Even if, by some miracle, the RCA plug itself could be made to be a 'true' 75 ohm impedance, which I am not convinced that it can be (nor are quite a few knowledgeable RF folks and engineers), then it would still be a moot point since the RCA female jack is not a 75 ohms Z.
YEST, BUT IF YOU LOOK AT A SCHEMATIC FROM SOME TVS OR OTHER VIDEO PRODUCTS, YOU WILL NOTICE A SERIES 25-30 OHM RESISTOR INLINE WITH THE RCA CONNECTOR. &nbsp;THIS IS TO HELP WITH IMPEDANCE MATCHING WITHIN FREQUENCIES RELEVANT TO LUMPED ELEMENTS.

Yes, the RCA plug on the right will be slightly worse than the one on the left, as it does have a &quot;constriction&quot; in the overall diameter of the barrel to center pin, as shown. This is not necessarily a show stopper, or a huge problem. After all, as we have seen earlier, the plug shown as being of a 75 ohm impedance, has an impedance discontinuity due tothe differing diameter of the inner barrel where it is cut out for access to the center pin.

So these RCA plug related impedance discontinuities are more a matter of dgree, rather than any sort of absolute.

[ That being the case, only a few component video cables actually have true 75-ohm RCA connectors since very few exist. ]

In point of fact, no real 75 ohm impedance RCA plugs exist. Much has been made of a certain brand of plugs that do everything they can to promote this myth, but if the claims and wording of this brand of plug is examined closely, one will find that words and phrasing like &quot;75 ohm coaxial cable compatible&quot;, or &quot;impedance-matched&quot; or they make reference to a VSWR measurement, but they really never come out and SAY that the plugs are actually endowed with a 75 ohm impedance, nor do they mention if the plugs were measured for VSWR when actually plugged into a female RCA jack!

SEC 3.7 Jackets and Sheaths
This section is very confused, as so much is misstated for the subject line.

[ The disadvantage of PVC (as a jacket material) is its overall stiffness and lack of flexibility. ]

That's my parenthetical insert.

PVC, with the addition of the proper type and amount of plasticizers, is one of the THE most flexible jacket materials, and is often the only choice if cable flexibility is needed.

[ Polyurethane is restricted to use in jackets only, due to its poor dielectric properties. ]

While I am not fond of PU's dielectric properties, and do not recommend it be used as an insulator, especially for coaxial cables, it IS used as a coating on lots of magnet wire, and so, IS used as an insulator, contrary to what this article says. As a matter of fact, I am not aware of too many cable jackets that use PU either, when PVC is cheaper.

[ Polyethylene is the compound most widely used in coaxial and low capacitance cables due to its fine electrical properties. ]

This is true from a center insulator (dielectric) standpoint, but has little relevance for use as a jacket material. In point of fact, PE is seldom used as a jacket material, due to cost and stiffness.

[ Nylon has a very low coefficient of friction, making it a good choice for use in high flex applications. ]

While this is true for certain types of wiring, such as THHN type wires, run inside conduits for AC power, nylon is hardly ever used as a jacket material for coaxial cables, as it is too stiff, and would tend to encourage kinking of the inner dielectric, compromising the impedance of the cable.

This whole section looks like it was lifted right out of some cable manufacturer's web site, only, it was in the section on INSULATORS, not jackets. Sheesh!

SEC 4.0
[ Based on the lengthy discussions in each section, marketing schemes such as the misuse of the term skin effect and the entirely made up term known as ‘strand jumping’ were found to have little to no effect on cable performance. ]

This is not exactly the case, as I have already pointed out, and while SOME equations and &quot;math&quot; were presented, they do not definitively show that what he states is some sort of inherent mathematical truth.
Aside from contradicting himself on skin efect, and whether or not it needs to be addressed (is stranded wires and silver plated NEEDED, or not?), he does not address the other aspects of skin effect issues.

This includes the very reasons that strand jumping may occur, which is going to be skin effect driven.

Given that only some of the issues were discussed, how is it that skin effect and strand jumping &quot;were found to have little to no effect on cable performance&quot; ? Found by whom?

[ Don’t be fooled by to good to be true marketing claims that are abundant when considering the multitude of cables on the market. ]

Including claims about true 75 ohm RCA plugs, stranded wires being significantly superior to solid wires, and silver plating being needed for video cables?

Summary and Comment
The general tone of the article is one of an adversarial one towards cable vendors, as if they were out to try and &quot;trick you&quot; or cheat you with techno-bull, but the article itself has obviously accepted without reservation certain specific vendor's 'techno-bull', and proposes some of this as the gospel truth.

You are told that solid wires are used because they are cheap, not really the case, and in fact, it may be that a solid wire is actually superior for video/RF use.
You are told that some video cable vendors are selling you strand jumping, when I do not know of any vendor doing this.

AUDIOQUEST, STEALTH AUDIO CABLES, AUDIENCE-AV, JON RISCH DIY, NORDOST ALL PROMOTE STRAND JUMPING.

You are told that some vendors provide &quot;true 75 ohm&quot; RCA plugs, in contrast to other vendors, when in fact, it is highly unlikely that there are ANY &quot;true 75 ohm&quot; RCA plugs&quot;, and even if there were, it is a moot point due to absolutely NO &quot;true 75 ohm&quot; RCA JACKS!
You are told that silver plating is desirable, even though it will not matter. (Silver plating costs money)
You are told to look at solder joints, without the whole story of what to look for.

Frankly, I think that such an article, pretending to be the last word on the technical aspects of video cables, does the video enthusiast a disservice, because some poor fool is going to believe the contents, and run out and buy a silver plated, stranded center wire, RG-11 sized cable with special non-impedance consistent RCA plugs.
The ironic part is, this highly sophisticated super duper video cable may or may not perform any better than other video cables, how can anyone tell for sure from all the 'technical' information in this article?

JON YOU MADE SOME GOOD POINTS ABOUT THIS ARTICLE, HOWEVER YOU MADE MANY MISLEADING AND UN TRUE ONES. &nbsp;I THINK THE ARTICLE ON A WHOLE IS GOOD. &nbsp; DOES IT NEED WORK? &nbsp;YES. &nbsp;IS IT PERFECT? NO. &nbsp;HOWEVER, AT LEAST ITS INTENT IS GENUINE. &nbsp;ITS CONTENT IS NOT POLARIZED. &nbsp;IT TEACHES BASIC CONCEPTS. &nbsp;IT DOESNT PROMOTE FALLACIES SUCH AS THE ONES FOUND ON YOUR WEBSITE. &nbsp;

BOTTOM LINE, THIS IS MY 1ST AND FINAL DEBATE ABOUT THIS ARTICLE WITH YOU. &nbsp;I DON'T KNOW HOW YOU FIND THE TIME TO DEBATE AND NITPICK IN SUCH LENGTH AS YOU ALWAYS DO. &nbsp;IF I MAY SUGGEST, FIND OTHER AVENUES TO MAKE YOU FEEL GOOD ABOUT YOURSELF. &nbsp;GET ON AN EXERCISE PROGRAM, FIND A MATE, GO FISHING, DO SOMETHING. &nbsp;I CANT BELIEVE HOW YOU DELIBERATELY GO ON ALL OF THE POULAR AUDIO WEBSITES WITH YOUR SO CALLED TEACHINGS AND SLANDER AGAINST ANY ARTICLE POSTED ON AUDIOHOLICS ABOUT CABLES. &nbsp;
YOU ARE A TECHNICALLY COMPETENT PERSON. &nbsp;WHY DO YOU MIX TECHNICAL INFORMATION WITH FALLACIES? &nbsp;WHAT MOTIVATION DO YOU HAVE? &nbsp;WHAT GAIN DO YOU GET BY SPREADING SUCH DISSERVICE? &nbsp;I HOPE YOU SLEEP WELL AT NIGHT.

NIGHFLY!
Jon Risch</font>
 
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<font color='#000000'>The generaliztion by many is that video signals are easier to transmit than audio.

Wrong and not even close. An audio signal with only a 20khz bandwidth is duck soup compared to a video signal. At the composite NTSC video level, the bandwidth requriement is over 6 Mhz or 300+ times as great. At the RF level, it's closer to 1 GHz for the higher frequency VHF channels. Even the audio subcarrier and its sidebands is far less critical for television transmission than just the colorburst subcarrier. When tv sets required alignment, that was one of the most important and critical things to align for, not the audio. And when you get passed just moving the signal from point a to b along a wire and get to broadcast transmission of video vs audio (television vs radio) the difficulty of getting acceptable results is compounded many fold for video. There never would have been a cable industry if not for television. Cable radio?</font>
 
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<font color='#000000'>Seems to me that Audioholics quotes and takes excerpts from sources that include engineering textbooks, and multiple manufacturers who make coaxial cables, not component video cables. &nbsp;Straight to the source I suppose.

Jon lists sources as 'HIS experiences' and other articles HE's written which appearantly all comes from people HE knows that MAY 'know about RF.' &nbsp;NO SOURCES THERE.

How is it that Jon can ask for proof from Audioholics when his only proof is himself?

Interesting.

Thanks Audioholics.

It seems that the old savings and loan is putting a damper on Mr. Potter's business. &nbsp;Why else is Mr. Potter so interested in trying to shut it down? &nbsp;Frankly, I'm glad the Internet is not just Rischville, I mean, Pottersville.</font>
 
<font color='#000000'>Civil discussion is always welcome... what I sometimes don't understand, is the amount of detail paid to criticizing a 30 page article - forcing the author to have to either a) rebut the 40-page critique [which is rather time consuming] or b) ignore the majority of the critique, thus giving the critic fuel to claim that his challenges have gone unanswered.

We'd rather spend our time writing good, helpful articles than rebutting one person's opinions.

My concerns:

1. What is the point of Jon's rebuttal? It appears that he is merely using this as an opportunity to reassert his assumed position of cable guru - apparently not believing that anyone else is capable of espousing knowledge on an equal level.

2. What is the goal of such a rebuttal? The goal of the article is put forth clearly - save the average Joe money and point out what is important and what is not. Jon's point is what?

3. Why spend so much time on a public rebuttal that only seeks to tear down? Why not contact Audioholics with your concerns - aiming to better the community through clear, accurate and scientific information disclosure. I suspect the given answer is that he is correcting our science - but this is silly, since he provides little of his own beyond his experiences. The truth, I suspect, is more akin to territorial domain.

That's my $0.02 - we've all been here before - and Jon is welcome on our forums - we do not, and have not, ever edited his posts as he suggests.

Remember - it's not all about one person - these articles are for the community.

[PS. This is what an edited post looks like...]</font>
 
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<font color='#000000'><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>
hawke : The truth, I suspect, is more akin to territorial domain.
I have this image of a dog sniffing a tire, and then...

It really fits the situation.  
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<font color='#000000'>REPLY to nightfly! (and to one other post regardin WHY I posted about the article.)

The article by Steve DellaSala is touted as &nbsp;&quot; The Definitive Guide&quot;, and makes calims that it is based on math and not snake-oil or BS. &nbsp;Yet, without any proper back-up (rather, the opposite), he touts silver plating and stranded wires. &nbsp;There is no apparent basis in fact for making these kinds of recommendations, based strictly on the information in the article.

RE nightlfly!'s post:
I note for the record, that of all the point s I make about the Tech Article, approx. 18 separate points, he agrees with 4 of them, and only attempts to address another 8 of them. &nbsp;He completely ignores 6 of the points I raise.

Considering that he did not adequately rebut any of the 8 points he does disagree with me on, this still leaves 18 points about the Tech Article that are either incorrect, misleading, or need to be clarified quite a bit.

Now, point by point I reply to nightfly:

[ &nbsp; NOTICE HIS DISCLAIMER OF &quot;OWN PERSONAL OPITION&quot; NOT BASED ON ENGINEERING TRUTHS BUT MORE CONVOLUTED HALF TRUTHS SPREAD BETTER THAN NOOTHER THAN MR. RISCH. &nbsp; ]

OK, where is your proof that I spread half-truthes? &nbsp;It is easy to say this, but you had better have some proof of your accusations.
Just because I am expressing my own personal opinion, does not mean that it is NOT based on engineering truth's, in so much as you would like to imply otherwise.

Me in original post:
&quot;Also, he goes into characteristic impedance formula's for infinitely long cables (Section 1.2), but have already stated they are not relevant.&quot;

[ &nbsp;WHERE DID HE STATE THEY WERE NOT RELEVANT? &nbsp;]

He stated that: &quot;Cable lengths less than 30 meters have no effect of overall impedance.&quot;
His formula is for an infinitely long cable. &nbsp;Surely you can see the difference between infinity, and less than 30 M?
In other words, the formulas do not apply, according to what he said in the article. &nbsp;So how does this 'math' prove or substantiate anything?

[ &nbsp; THIS IS CLEARLY EVIDENT WITH SUCH FALLACIES AS STRAND JUMPING, CABLE BREAK IN, ELEVATORS, ETC. &nbsp;THIS WAS THE POINT I BELIEVE THE AUTHOR WAS TRYING TO MAKE. &nbsp;]

Why? &nbsp;The article was supposed to be about video cables, why are there unsubstantiated technical attacks on audio cable issues in it then? &nbsp;Why are YOU bringing up audio cable issues when we are supposedly talking about video? &nbsp;I think the answer is clear, the author, and you, are trying to denigrate certain aspect of audio cables, even though the avowed discussion subject was video cables.
If questioned on this, it is the easy to say &quot;Oh, we are not talking about audio cables, just video, I will not reply to this issue&quot;.
An unsubstantiated attack, without providing the proper evidence to back up what is claimed.

I stand by what I said:
&quot;I am not aware of any manufacturer that uses strand jumping in extolling the virtues of their video cables.&quot;
and
&quot;With this in mind, I find it odd that this would be mentioned in an article on video cables, if none of the manufacturer's make any such claims.&quot;

It makes no sense to &quot;de-bunk&quot; an issue that does not exist for video cables, and so you have NOT addressed the main point I was making.

[ &nbsp;IF YOU HAVE A CABLE CARRYING THE SAME SIGNAL ON ADJACENT STRANDS, HOW WILL IT JUMP? &nbsp;ALL OF THE STRANDS ARE CARRYING RELATIVELY THE SAME POTENTIAL, THEY HAVE NO REASON TO JUMP. &nbsp;]

I explained this quite nicely in the original post on the Tech Article, and I see no reason to repeat myself yet again. &nbsp;The strands are NOT at the same potential, due to the skin effect, and thus, there is an underlying mechanism for strand jumping to occur.
If you wish to say that skin effect is not one of the causes for strand jumping, you will have to provide more than some unsubstantiated hand waving as evidence. &nbsp;Neither your claims here, or Steve's in the Tech Article, are sufficient to explain why this is NOT the case.

RE solid wires vs. stranded wires:
[ &nbsp;EITHER WIRE WILL WORK WELL FOR VIDEO APPLICATIONS IN QUESTION, AND ESPECIALLY WELL FOR AUDIO FREQUENCIES. THE OVERALL CONSTRUCTION OF THE WIRE IS OF MORE IMPORTANCE. &nbsp;]

OK, so where is YOUR proof of this? &nbsp;I have talked to RF engineers that say that solid wire is superior to stranded for video and RF, there are at least two articles on the web that also point in this direction.
Where are your citations and evidence for your claim?

[ &nbsp; EQUIVALENT GAUGE STRANDED WIRE WILL HAVE LESS AC RESISTIVE LOSSES (SKIN EFFECT) THAN EQUIVALENT GAUGE SOLID CORE WIRE BECAUSE THE OVERAL SURFACE AREA OF THE STRANDED WIRE IS GREATER. &nbsp;]

This is the same claim made in the Tech Article, but it is implied that it is MUCH more than the paltry 10-15% that is the real situation.
Are you now claiming that this extra 10-15% is going to make the picture look better? &nbsp;Exactly what ARE you claiming? &nbsp;I think it is clear that based on the kinds of statements made in the Tech Article, that Steve was trying to imply that differences of such a magnitude would not be noticeable or significant.
Yet he (and you) seem to be trying to make it seem that this is desirable. &nbsp;WHY is it desirable?

[ &nbsp; OH OK SO I GUESS RETURN LOSS (WHICH IS A FUNCTION OF IMPEDANCE) IS NOT IMPORTANT FOR SIGNAL INTEGRITY. &nbsp;I &nbsp;GUESS YOU SHOULD TELL MICROWAVE ENGINEERS TO STOP DESIGNING IMPEDANCE TRANSFORMERS TO COMPENSATE FOR IMPEDANCE MISMATCHES DOWN THEIR TRANSMISSION LINES.... &nbsp;]

Nope, unless I am remembering incorrectly, we WERE talking about baseband video, or at most, TV RF video, neither of which are in the microwave region. &nbsp;SO why the hyperbole with regard to impedance issues? &nbsp;Is it because you can not think of a good defense, and so, throw out yet another red herring to confuse and distract?

[ &nbsp;HMM SO I GUESS YOU CAN'T DESIGN A 75 OHM CONNECT BY A FUNCTION OF DIAMETERS GIVEN IN THE AUTHORS EQUATION. &nbsp; ]

I never said that. &nbsp;However, I did say that (due to the specified diameter of the RCA center pin, and the spacing between it and the outer ground shell) that neither the plug or the jack can be made to be a true 75 ohm impedance. &nbsp;Unless you happen to have some negative permitivity insulation material in your back pocket!

This is one of the big flaws in the article, and indicates that the author was taking some certain vendors marketing BS, and turning it into a techincal 'fact'. &nbsp;Unfortunately, he was mislead, and just parroted the untrue assertions of that vendor. &nbsp;Kind of ironic for this to be occurring in an article that is supposed to be the final word on technical accuracy, so as to eliminate the snake-oil.

Me in original post:
&quot;... but what he fails to point out completely when discussing the equations, is that the signal losses due to reflections will tend to occur ONLY at certain frequencies related to the effective electrical length of the cable, and will NOT affect ALL frequencies the same.&quot;

[ &nbsp;HUH? &nbsp;DOES IT MATTER? &nbsp;LOSS AT ANY RELIVANT FREQUENCIES WITHIN THE VIDEO BANDWIDTH IS NOT A GOOD THING. &nbsp;DOES HE REALLY NEED TO SPELL EVERYTHING OUT TO YOU? &nbsp;]

Yes, it does matter. &nbsp;It matters if it is unclear to the reader who may not know any better, and it matters relative to other statements made in the article, with respect to actual cable lengths. &nbsp;If the video cable length can not possibly invoke any reflections within the video signal band, it would then be a moot point. &nbsp;You have not addressed this aspect at all.

Me in original post:
&quot;In order for this to occur, there would have to be impedance discontinuities at both ends of the video cable, and they would have to be fairly severe at both ends.&quot;

[ &nbsp; HOW DO YOU QUANTIFY THIS? &nbsp;DOES IT HAVE TO BE MORE SEVERE THAN THE RESULTANT LOSS YOU CLAIM BY STRAND JUMPING? &nbsp;WILL IT HAVE LESS OF AN IMPACT THAT IF YOU &nbsp;ELEVATED YOUR CABLES OFF THE FLOOR? &nbsp;OR WAIT, WILL IT IMPACT LESS THAN CABLE BREAK IN? &nbsp;]

You quantify it by looking at a TDR measurement, and look for relative level of the reflections.

And yet again, why are we discussing audio cables, when the article was supposed to be about video cables? Why?

[ &nbsp;THATS BECAUSE THE SO CALLED &quot;IMPURITIES&quot; THAT YOU MENTION ARE NOT SIGNIFICANT. &nbsp;]

So how can silver be significant, it is no more than a very thin coating on the surface of the wire?

[ &nbsp;NOBODY USES MAGICAL SILVER WIRE OTHER THAN SO CALLED EXOTIC SPEAKER CABLE VENDORS. &nbsp;]

Once again, we are talking about video cables. &nbsp;Why is Steve recommending silver plated wires, when it makes no difference, even according to you? &nbsp;I think I have made my point.

Me in original post:
&quot;Most folks who have worked with audio cables find that a 19 ga. wire has problems, and that smaller diameter wires are needed to avoid audible problems, whether they are due to the skin effect, or other issues.&quot;

[ &nbsp;IS THIS BASED ON OBJECTIVE MEASUREMENTS AND LISTENING? &nbsp;OH WAIT, YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN DBT. &nbsp;YOU CANNOT PROMOTE MAGIC WITHOUT FAITH. &nbsp;]

You are way off base here. &nbsp;Who ever said I do not believe in DBT? &nbsp;I do not accept the promotion of flawed amateur DBT's with regard to audio cables.
In point of fact, I have written an AES paper on blind testing, and conducted many blind tests, many with statistically significant positive results. &nbsp;

Me in original post:
&quot;One can certainly see that there will be some significant skin effect at video frequencies for any reasonable size of coax center wire, even RG-59 types with a 20 or 22 ga. center wire.&quot;

[ &nbsp;SURE AND THE AUTHOR STATES SEVERAL TECHNIQUES TO MINIMIZE THIS. &nbsp;HE NEVER STATED THAT SKIN EFFECT IS IRRELEVANT AT VIDEO FREQUENCIES. &nbsp;]

Yes, he did state it was irrelevant at video frequencies, he said it was only a 0.047 dB power loss at 10 MHz. &nbsp;He also said in SEC 2.0 &quot;As you will see in Section 2.3, skin effects are minimal to nonexistent in video cables given their frequency of operation.&quot;

I don't know how much more distinct he could have been about the subject, except for the confusing portions about silver plating being needed, and stranded wires.

[ &nbsp;ACTUALLY THE STRANDED WIRE WITHOUT INSULATION ON EACH STRAND IS STILL CONSIDERED LITZ WIRE AND YES THE SURFACE AREA IS GREATER. &nbsp;]

This is completely wrong. &nbsp;Litz wire is NOT the same as any old stranded wire! &nbsp;In order for it to be consi8dered Litz wire, it MUST be individually insulated!
See:
http://www.awcwire.com/glossary/web-GLOSSARY.pdf (page 16)
http://www.neewc.com/litz/litz01.htm

RE skin effect and minimizing it via stranded wires and silver plating:
[ &nbsp;AGAIN, THEY DONT MATTER FOR AUDIO, THEY START MATTERING FOR VIDEO. &nbsp;YOU LOVE TO TWIST WORDS DONT YOU JON? &nbsp;]

This was an article about video cables, and he was supposedly discussing video cables. &nbsp;I was discusing video cables.

The bottom line is, is skin effect an issue with video cables, or not?
If not, then silver plating is a boondoggle, and so are stranded wires.

Me in original post:
&quot;While this may or may not be true for the oxygen free aspect, most of the folks who cryogenically treat the cables do not necessarily do so to improve the oxygen free content of the cables, rather, they are doing it to try and improve the crystalline structure of the
metallic conductors. Metallurgy has shown that some sort of an effect does take place in many instances when a metal is cryogenically treated, so to say that nothing has changed is a bit much to be saying without any further qualification.&quot;

[ &nbsp;GIVE ME A BREAK. &nbsp;YOU ARE DEALING WITH SOMETHING SO INSIGNIFICANT AND SO FAR BELOW THE NOISE FLOOR AND THRESHOLD OF HUMAN HEARING. &nbsp;THE INDORSEMENT OF SUCH A FALLACY IS FAR MORE MISLEADING THAN ANY TECHNICAL ERRORS IN THE ARTICLE IN QUESTION. &nbsp;]

Look, he was wrong about technical issues more than once.

He was misdirecting on this issue, where he says that &quot;...it is the same cable it was before being ‘frozen.’&quot;
This is just not true, what ever level you want to ascribe to the metalurgical changes due to cryo treatment.

They are real and have been documented for other cryo treatment applications, such as treatment of musical brass instruments, rifle barrels, knives, and various automotive engine parts. All of these changes are also very small, occur on the molecular level, and are known to provide a distinct benefit for the application.
Why not for audio cables too?
So where is YOUR proof that this is not so? &nbsp;Where are the citations showing that cryo has NO affect on audio cables?

RE strand jumping:
[ &nbsp;PERHAPS THIS TOPIC IS TOO COMPLEX AND THUS RESERVED FOR A FEW CABLE
VENDORS TO WRITE ABOUT ON THEIR WEBSITES. &nbsp;LETS JUST MAKE SURE THAT EVERYONE IS SELLING THE EXACT SAME STORY SO IT SOUNDS LEGIT. &nbsp;]

Sorry, but once again, for video cables this topic IS a red herring, not relevant, and only brought up in the Tech article as a side issue to confuse.

I do address the issue of how the strand jumping arises at this point in my post, I strongly suggest that you re-read it, apparently, &nbsp;it did not sink in the first time.


Me in original post:
&quot;Bottom line: no matter what the RCA plug itself is doing, the female RCA jack is not 75 ohms impedance. Period. End of discussion.
Even if, by some miracle, the RCA plug itself could be made to be a 'true' 75 ohm &nbsp;impedance, which I am not convinced that it can be (nor are quite a few knowledgeable RF folks and engineers), then it would still be a moot point since the RCA female jack is not a
75 ohms Z.&quot;

[ &nbsp;YEST, BUT IF YOU LOOK AT A SCHEMATIC FROM SOME TVS OR OTHER VIDEO PRODUCTS,YOU WILL NOTICE A SERIES 25-30 OHM RESISTOR INLINE WITH THE RCA CONNECTOR. THIS IS TO HELP WITH IMPEDANCE MATCHING WITHIN FREQUENCIES RELEVANT TO LUMPED ELEMENTS. &nbsp;]

Sorry, but the in-line resistor does NOT compensate for the RCA jack impedance, it CAN NOT do so. &nbsp;The jack internal impedance is &quot;what it is&quot;. &nbsp;What is more likely, is that it is compensating for a circuit impedance inside that is not a full 75 ohms, and the resistor brings this level up to a nominal 75 ohms. &nbsp;This is a legitimate method for this purpose

[ &nbsp;AUDIOQUEST, STEALTH AUDIO CABLES, AUDIENCE-AV, JON RISCH DIY, NORDOST ALL PROMOTE STRAND JUMPING. &nbsp;]

And none of them promote it specifically for their video cables, do they? &nbsp;Myself, I am not &quot;promoting it&quot; as such, but rather, see it as one possibility among many for the reasons that audio cables sound different. &nbsp;In pointof fact, my most highly recommended commercially available coaxial cable, Belden 89259, has a stranded center conductor.
So how exactly am I &quot;promoting&quot; this issue?

[ &nbsp;JON YOU MADE SOME GOOD POINTS ABOUT THIS ARTICLE, HOWEVER YOU MADE MANY MISLEADING AND UN TRUE ONES. &nbsp;]

OK, where is your evidence for this statement? &nbsp;You sure did not provide any in this response!

[ &nbsp;HOWEVER, AT LEAST ITS INTENT IS GENUINE. &nbsp;ITS CONTENT IS NOT POLARIZED. &nbsp;IT TEACHES BASIC CONCEPTS. &nbsp;]

It's content is not polarized? &nbsp;I don't think so. &nbsp;It obviously goes out of the way to promote stranded center wires, and silver plating, despite the very same article essentially saying that these are not necessary, or at the least, implying such with the kinds of dismissal of small changes or diferences. &nbsp;It also goes out of the way to promote a certain kind of RCA plug, which itself has some flaws, according to the very same criteria within the article.

When an article teaches something that is wrong, and does so more than once, how does this excuse the rest of the content?

[ &nbsp;IT DOESNT PROMOTE FALLACIES SUCH AS THE ONES FOUND ON YOUR WEBSITE. &nbsp; ]

OK, where are the citations, the references, the evidence for this claim of yours? &nbsp;Like many other cable naysayers, you talk big, but do not deliver on any substance. &nbsp;A very few other naysayers have claimed I had technically incorrect information at my web site, but NONE have ever provided the valid evidence for such claims, or even much in the way of any technical back-up, valid or not.

Certainly NOTHING here at audioholics has shown that the content of my web site is in error, nor has anything you have written.

So what we have is a lot of rebuttals without any subtance, or that completely ignore the original point. &nbsp;A lot of continuing to refer to audio cable issues, instead of video cable issues.

Now we will see if this post remains, unaltered, or is edited or removed by audioholics.

Jon Risch</font>
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
<font color='#000000'>Jon;

Welcome back to audioholics.com.
Your original posts were not altered but deleted because of your derogatory manner and false accusations of people referring to you as a serial killer when the analogy used clearly compared you to a televangelist in a humorous tone. &nbsp; I saw nothing constructive in your thread of posts thus decided to delete them. &nbsp;This is as much of my right as I am the President and Founder of Audioholics.com, as it is your right to moderate the &quot;Cables&quot; forum at Audioasylum.com.

You raise some sensible technical issues about Steve's cable article and I will address them in due time. &nbsp;However, I encourage you to kindly remain professional and courteous in your replies and interaction with people on my forums. &nbsp;This is an audio forum for people who all share a common and loved hobby. &nbsp;


Please also provide a link to your main page of your website. &nbsp;Everytime I do a search for your website, I wind up in the middle of an article you wrote.

We would also welcome you to submit some of your DIY cables where we have lab equipment at our disposal such as:
HP LCR Meter
TIMMS
Audio Precision
HP Network/Spectrum Analyzers
Textronics Digital Oscilloscopes, etc.

If you have sensible cable receipts that are easy and cost effective to produce we would love to spread the word. &nbsp;Perhaps all that is needed is clarification as to why your cables are beneficial. &nbsp;Unfortunately many people in audio don't have solid engineering backgrounds, and thus the reason why so many fallacies such as &quot;Strand Jumping&quot;, Skin Effect relevance in audio, Cable Elevators, etc are used to describe reasons that Cable A is better/ or sounds better than Cable B.

[Edited punctuations]</font>
 
G

Guest

Guest
<font color='#000000'>In Jon's words:

&quot;They are real and have been documented for other cryo treatment applications, such as treatment of musical brass instruments, rifle barrels, knives, and various automotive engine parts. All of these changes are also very small, occur on the molecular level, and are known to provide a distinct benefit for the application.
Why not for audio cables too?
So where is YOUR proof that this is not so? Where are the citations showing that cryo has NO affect on audio cables?&quot;



Why Jon? Because the following:

EVERY manufacturer of cables who claim cryo-freezing makes a difference also place in a disclaimer that the difference is not measurable, especially by resistance. In audio cables especially, resistance is the primary governing factor for the &quot;performance&quot; of a cable. Here's a bit of night time reading for you:

http://home.earthlink.net/~rogerr7/wire.htm

If you can not measure a difference in the cable's resistance before and after the cryo freezing, where is YOUR proof that it is beneficial. This is nothing more then a JOKE.

Cryogenic freezing is partially beneficial for the items you mention in your list because it is a form of stress relieving and those items slightly benefit mechanically (not electrically) from stress relief for many reasons NOT related to conducting electric current. Oddly enough, out of all your examples listed, none of them conduct electricity.

For audio and video signals, if it cannot be measured in resistance, it is not a worthwhile process. Everything else you site to show benefit from cryo-freezing is elfin magic, not science. You say you've talked with an RF Engineer or two, but I've talked with multiple metallurgists, and laboratories that do cryogenic freezing. When I tell a metallurgist about this myth, it's all they can do to keep from falling off their chair in laughter.

In fact, the thing that really makes me laugh is I can get a whole box of cables cryogenically frozen in a 72-hour soak cycle for just $20 from the following places:

http://www.pearl-hifi.com/

http://www.ses.soton.ac.uk/projects/ThermalFluid/thermalfluid.html

These guys do it for a living and also admit that there is NO MEASURABLE difference in cables that are done before and after. It's supposed to be this unique process that only a few companies (all audio cable related) know how to do, yet in a matter of minutes, I've found two labs that do it for next to nothing just to earn income. These two labs are actually some of the labs that some of the audio cable companies contract the process out to, so they are not even doing it in house!!!!! Oh, man this is unreal. I can't believe ANYONE would fall for this BS.



As for &quot;strand jumping,&quot; the only places that this term shows up in search engines are on YOUR site and a few cable companies, some of which advertise on Audio Asylum.

Strange coincidence?

As for dismissing this nonsense, made up term that has no proof what's so ever, other then the bad-physics you come up with in your articles, my proof is simple.

Energy takes the path of least resistance. You learn this in Elementary School. It is less resistance for energy to continue down its path in a strand then for it to hop to another strand, both of which have an air gap between them and two oxide layers between them. If you actually think that energy will hop over an air gap and two oxide layers due to skin effect, you are really loosing you mind. This term is laughable as is anyone who promotes it.

Furthermore, you mention that this &quot;strand jumping&quot; is only valid for audio frequencies due to skin effects. Oddly enough, skin effects are based on frequency of which its effects are increased at the video frequenices (as can be calculated). &nbsp;Why then is it not applicable for video frequency where skin effects can be calculated as higher?

It's likely that the video cable industry would not tolerate such a nonsensical term, or they just haven't thought about marketing their cables that way yet.

I'm glad Steve included &quot;Strand Jumping&quot; in his article because it brings light to the BS that goes around the cable industry with folks like you.

Lastly, I've read the article and saw your comments. Steve is not talking about silver plating strictly in terms of minimizing skin effect as you will have everyone believe. He does mention that the primary purpose for silver plating is to slow down oxidation of the underlying copper. THIS IS TRUE !!!!!!!!!!!!! In addition to slowing down the process of oxidation, it also provides less resistance in the depth that is calculated to be the &quot;zone&quot; for skin effect, and therefore, IF skin effect is relevant (which the article doesn't say it is), then its effects can also be minimized by silver plating. It is not in conflict, just being taken out of context, but that's what you do. I see nothing wrong with mentioning silver plating as it is a valid process for minimizing oxidation, just as the article discusses.

I commend Audioholics for writing this article. It is clear that the article needs some updating and I'm sure they will do it just as they say they will. Steve openly admitted in this forum and other forums that he WILL update the article to clarify some of the wording and points being made, yet you still continue to attack them.

I still ask myself, why is Jon so concerned that there is another Internet site writing about cables?

More to follow:::::::</font>
 
G

Guest

Guest
<font color='#000000'>No Such Thing As a 75 Ohm RCA plug/jack.


What is the closest to a 75 ohm impedance that an RCA plug/jack can come?

Well, if we take the straight center pin size, and the straight outer shell sizes, and do the calculations, and assume a teflon dielectric with a constant of 2.1, then it is approx. 40.3 ohms.

EQUATIONS:
Cable (or plug) Z = (138 / SQUARE ROOT OF e) TIMES &nbsp;log (D/d)
d = diameter of center cond.
D = inner diameter of outer shield
e = dielectric constant
log = logrithm of 10

d is 0.125&quot;
D is 0.330&quot;

(Only good for an infinitely long cable, but we will use it here in the same manner as Steve did. &nbsp;Either he is right about this too, and therefore, so am I, or he is wrong about this, and it is yet another incorrect technical portion of the article)

A smaller outer shell would only make this lower in impedance.

If we used a foamed teflon as an insulator, or some sort of hollowed out insulator, that had a dielectric constant of 1.5, then this would rise to approx. 47.5 ohms Z.

An insulator with a high dielectric constant would only make things lower in Z as well. &nbsp;

Some folks have proposed a spiral center pin, to effectively reduce the diameter of the center conductor. &nbsp;However, even if this were feasible, it would not change what is going on with the female RCA jack. &nbsp;In point of fact, such an arrangement would not work at the frequencies of interest, and would behave as if it were a solid center conductor of the same diameter as the original center pin.

Most such tricks either fail at the frequencies of interest, or cause their own problems.

So it should be clear at this point, that it is not possible for an RCA plug to acheive a true 75 ohms impedance. &nbsp;Neither will any RCA jack be a true 75 ohm's impedance.

In Steve's article, in Section 3.5, he says:
&quot;The diameter of the white dielectric in the RCA connector on the left is much larger than the diameter of the white dielectric in the RCA connector on the right. This critical outer diameter of the white dielectric is what defines the 75-ohm impedance of the RCA connector, as defined in Section 1.2. It turns out that the RCA connector on the left has the correct diameter ratios to create a 75-ohm connection, where as the one on the right is adequate for a 50-ohm connection such as that found in audio signals.&quot;

The big problem with this is that, the RCA plug on the left CAN NOT HAVE &nbsp;A 75 OHM IMPEDANCE. &nbsp;The very same formula as provided in the article shows this to be the case. &nbsp;
Additionally, I have also pointed out the inconsistency of the inner diameters of the RCA plug on the left, where the inner portions are &quot;cut-away&quot; for the center wire pin to be soldered.

If Steve did not make any technical mistakes in the article, as some have claimed, then what is the deal with telling people that the RCA plug on the left is a &quot;true 75 ohm&quot; plug?
This is just plain wrong. &nbsp;It should be corrected, the comments about &quot;true 75 ohm&quot; RCA plugs should be removed, and a proper explanation of the impedances of an RCA plug provided.

As should the sections that imply that silver plating is desirable. &nbsp;Either skin effect is NOT a problem, and the silver plating is superfluous, or it is a problem and we should have the silver plating. &nbsp;Some defenders of Steve have suggested that the silver plating is ONLY recommended for the purpose of reducing oxidation of the copper wire. &nbsp;I have a news flash, plating can NOT prevent the kind of oxidation issues that were raised with respect to soldering causing the wire to become brittle, these depend on the inherent purity of the copper wire, as the surface oxidation does not tend to penetrate very far at all.


The statements that stranded wires are better than solid wires should also be corrected. &nbsp;Or at least provide some definitive references or specific citations to show that such is the case. &nbsp;So far, I have found NOTHING that indicates that stranded wires are considered to be superior to solid wires for video or RF use. &nbsp;In fact, I have found two web sites that say the opposite.

All references to strand jumping should be removed, as this is not an issue that ANY video cable manufacturer (or anyone else that I know of) brings up with regard to video cables. &nbsp;Setting up a straw man to be knocked down does not further understanding or provide a sound technical basis for evaluating video cables. &nbsp; If the article is about video cables, it should be about video cables, and not take unsubstantiated cheap shots at an issue that is more appropriately discussed under the aegis of audio cables, if it is going to be discussed at all.

Finally, the recommendation that any cables over 2M should use the lowest resistance wire, namely RG-11, should also be more specifically qualified, that PERHAPS, for runs over 100 feet, one may wish to avoid the loss of that last couple of tenth's of a dB at 10 MHz, and use a larger/thicker cable. &nbsp;In most instances, RG-6 would be plenty, and for most typical hook-up lengths of 10-20 feet, RG-59 size cables will more than suffice.
As already noted, the losses that are consider acceptable for skin effect for a 6 foot length of cable in another portion of the article, are greater than the losses for switching from ten feet of RG-11 to ten feet of RG-59.

Aside from correcting these major technical issues, other portions of the article needs some significant clarification (as already noted), and perhaps then it will be closer to what it states itself to be:&quot;The Definitive Guide&quot;.

Sincerely,
Jon Risch</font>
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
<font color='#000000'>Thanks for your thoughtful reply and critique of Steve's Cable Article. &nbsp;I will attempt to offer responses to your post as time permits. &nbsp;I don't frequent the forums much as I am often busy writing new articles and reviews or working at my day job unfortunately



Plase be patient as I will be addressing the fallacies of &quot;Strand Jumping&quot; and why this phenomenon doesn't exist as it breaks the laws of Physics and Engineering common sense. &nbsp;I will also be preparing an article that considers the relevance of Skin Effect at Audio frequencies.

I am however curious/baffled that you propose/support theories such as &quot;Strand Jumping&quot; and Skin Effect being the cause of this phenomenon, yet you claim it is only an audio related problem. &nbsp;Since Skin Effect becomes much more of an issue at high frequencies (well above audio band), why would &quot;Strand Jumping&quot; not be a problem with video cables, or any cables that transmit RF frequencies? &nbsp;How come there are no RF Power Transmission Books that address this? &nbsp;

As for your critique on Steve's article, here is my short rebuttal for now:


<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">No Such Thing As a 75 Ohm RCA plug/jack.


What is the closest to a 75 ohm impedance that an RCA plug/jack can come?

Well, if we take the straight center pin size, and the straight outer shell sizes, and do the calculations, and assume a teflon dielectric with a constant of 2.1, then it is approx. 40.3 ohms.

EQUATIONS:
Cable (or plug) Z = (138 / SQUARE ROOT OF e) TIMES &nbsp;log (D/d)
d = diameter of center cond.
D = inner diameter of outer shield
e = dielectric constant
log = logrithm of 10

d is 0.125&quot;
D is 0.330&quot;

Some folks have proposed a spiral center pin, to effectively reduce the diameter of the center conductor. &nbsp;However, even if this were feasible, it would not change what is going on with the female RCA jack. &nbsp;In point of fact, such an arrangement would not work at the frequencies of interest, and would behave as if it were a solid center conductor of the same diameter as the original center pin.
</td></tr></table>

While your calculations are correct based on your stated dimensions, I don't believe these dimensions are fixed and can be manipulated to some extent as can the form factor. &nbsp;I need to research this a bit before I can offer a solid rebuttal.


If you look at most video drivers, their output impedance is around 40 to 50 ohms. &nbsp;Manufacturers typically add a series resistor of say 25 ohms to make the interface look more like 75 ohms. &nbsp;While I agree with you that the female connector is probably less than 75 ohms, the output interface should provide good enough impedance matching for it not to be a problem. &nbsp;If we were dealing with an infinitely long transmission line then I can see there being a problem with this. &nbsp;However designing a male RCA connect to 75 ohms or at least close to 75 ohms can only be beneficial to the connection so there is merit in attempting to do so.

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If Steve did not make any technical mistakes in the article, as some have claimed, then what is the deal with telling people that the RCA plug on the left is a &quot;true 75 ohm&quot; plug?
This is just plain wrong. &nbsp;It should be corrected, the comments about &quot;true 75 ohm&quot; RCA plugs should be removed, and a proper explanation of the impedances of an RCA plug provided.
</td></tr></table>

Relax Jon. &nbsp;We will look further into this as well as verify the Manufacturer's construction processes to determine legitimacy in their claims. &nbsp;If this is a true fallacy, we will update accordingly. &nbsp;In reality, this may be an issue uncovered as another marketing claim that needs to be debunked. &nbsp;

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
As should the sections that imply that silver plating is desirable. &nbsp;Either skin effect is NOT a problem, and the silver plating is superfluous, or it is a problem and we should have the silver plating. &nbsp;Some defenders of Steve have suggested that the silver plating is ONLY recommended for the purpose of reducing oxidation of the copper wire. &nbsp;I have a news flash, plating can NOT prevent the kind of oxidation issues that were raised with respect to soldering causing the wire to become brittle, these depend on the inherent purity of the copper wire, as the surface oxidation does not tend to penetrate very far at all.
</td></tr></table>

Steve never claimed Skin Effect wasn't a problem at video frequencies. &nbsp;He did say that it is not a serious issue and even sited a calculated example to show its impact. &nbsp;He furthered concluded that Silver Plating wires can help reduce the Skin Effect Tendency. &nbsp;

Jon, I am by no means a metallurgy expert, but my understanding is there are two methods of plating. Electrolytic, and Electroless.
Electrolytic deposits quicker, but Electroless provides a more uniform coating.

Here is a quick reference about this:
Electroless



For all normal solderable surfaces, both silver plating requires a barrier metal be applied, usually nickel to prevent the plating from disappearing the instant solder is applied. &nbsp;I believe this helps to reduce, or at least slow down the oxide process.

Well that's all I have time for right now. &nbsp;I agree with you that Steve's article can use some updating / clarification. &nbsp;Hey we are not perfect. &nbsp;We do our best to provide correct and useful information to people in a friendly environment. &nbsp;We are not &quot;Naysayers&quot; of Cables like you may think of us to be. &nbsp;However, we do believe that there are definable parameters to cables based on sound Engineering and Physics Principles. &nbsp;There is no magic here. &nbsp;Unfortunately over the last 20 years or so, there seems to be an increasing trend by many so called &quot;audiophiles&quot; and cable manufacturers to remove objective measurement and analysis and replace it with generalizations that sound is too complex to quantify. &nbsp;This just isn't the case.

Jon please also realize that all of us do this as a part time hobby with little or no reward other then getting our hands on the latest gear from time to time. &nbsp;You seem to be a passionate audiophile since you are so concerned with cables. &nbsp;It would be interesting to hear your comments on some of our other articles such as our latest about &quot;Current Trends in the Recording Format Arena&quot;.


Current Trends in the Recording Format Arena


Don't you have any other interests in audio other than cables?

[Replaced ? with &quot; when appropriate due to Word Doc transfer to Forum messed up characters]</font>
 
Last edited by a moderator:
D

Dan Banquer

Full Audioholic
<font color='#000000'>Let's face it here folks, It was never a great idea to use phono connectors at these frequencies. Now that we are &quot;stuck&quot; with these industry standards we need to make the best of it.
It is very common for designers to add a series resistor at the output of drivers whether it be Video, or RF. One must take into account the output impedance at the band  of frequencies desired and &quot;set&quot; the output impedance accordingly. It is also common to use either a series resistor or the use of parasitic inductance and capacitance to help match the impedance at the input. Another technique that I use in my DAC is to run about a foot of video cable from the RCA input for the SPDIF and go point to point on the 75 ohm input. This leaves a the impedance mismatch of the RCA in the &quot;middle&quot; so to speak and it's effect reduced by being one small part of a longer chain.
There are lots of ways to &quot;skin a cat&quot; It's designers choice as far as I am concerned.</font>
 
G

Guest

Guest
<font color='#000000'>Don't you get it John?

All the things that are said to be good in the article belong to a particular brand of video cables. &nbsp;Silver plating, special plug, stranded wire, and so on. &nbsp;It is nothing but a big commercial for a particular cable. &nbsp;Boy, for being so smart, you sure are dense!

King A</font>
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
<font color='#000000'>King;

While we appreciate your input and participation in this forum, I personally find your response offensive and unsubstantiated. &nbsp;We have no particular bias towards one cable brand or another. &nbsp;Steve depicted two examples of cables in his article as examples, but never mentioned their names or paid homage to any particular company. &nbsp;In the future I hope you can offer more useful input. &nbsp;If you feel we have hidden agendas or brand loyalties, then I suggest you discontinue viewing our articles and participating in our forums at Audioholics.com. &nbsp;I also find it misplaced that you question Jon's intelligence based on the fact that he didn't draw the same misconceived conclusions about the intent of our article. &nbsp;Some of Jon's feedback has been very useful to us and will help us to make improvements to our article for greater accuracy. &nbsp;In the end, that is our true goal, despite your beliefs.</font>
 
G

Guest

Guest
<font color='#000000'>I saw this in another forum and thought that Audioholics may be interested in it. &nbsp;I wish that this conversation would continue here, but it seems that AA is only interested in debating in areas where they are in control. &nbsp;Seems odd if they are trying to debate articles on this site, that they don't try to do it where the articles are posted. &nbsp;Hmmmmmmm!



Posted by Nightfly! on January 30, 2003 at 08:17:56
In Reply to: Finally a Connection? posted by Jon Risch on January 29, 2003 at 19:14:15:


Jon;
As usual Jon went out of his way to bash audioholics and twist facts.

I believe AH explaination of silver plating was to slow down oxidation of copper, not for skin effect, I believe they even provided a chemical formula on this. However, I havent read that article in awhile and I have to recheck it.

Stranded wires do help to reduce skin, even if they are not insulated strands such as litz wires. Each individual strand has a smaller diameter than the skin depth and thus nulls the skin effect as a whole. The only way this would not be true is if the return path of the cable is close enough to the positive side. This will introduce what is known as proximity effect which will push the current of each strand to near the surface of each conductor. Even insulated stranded wire will suffer from skin effect if it is not arranged in a litz configuration.

You always claim you know an RF engineer, well I am sitting here with a half dozen RF engineers that all know this to be true.

As for the 75 ohm connector that still remains an open issue, and I believe AH said tehy were investigating it with the manufacturers.

Most of the better video cables do use double foil shielding. The reasoning behind this should be obvious, why dont you ask your RF engineer friend. While your at is, ask your RF friend about &quot;Strand Jumping&quot;. If he truly is a degreed RF Engineer he will know that its a fallacy.
the fact that some parts of the signal may be following a longer path moving from strand to strand is complete nonsense and whats even more nonsense is your claim about this made up phenomenon causing distortion due to possible multiple path problems. &nbsp;At audio frequencies, you do not have anything but a TEM wave front on the conductors, so there can be no multi-path effects.

Where is your proof Jon? You claim it only happens in audio and no other frequencies other than audio, why? Why is audio so magical?
Please tell us. Both myself and others have asked you this at least a dozen times about this, yet you never replied.

You wanna talk about misleading, lets talk about your aricle about biwiring vs single wiring.

http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/biwiring2.htm

You show in your data table between 15-20dB improvments of biwiring over single wiring. Yet you do not show your calculations or how you came to these conclusions. Why is that? I asked you this at least 3 times, you never replied. Don't you think if the improvement was that dramatic, everyone would be writing papers on this, especially for AES? How come you never submit this dribble to AES for peer review?


You show a data table with numbers
Whats also interesting is you provide a link to Audioquest about Strand Jumping on your own site. Maybe you work for them or write their literature. It seems reasonable since you are drawing the same time of parallels between Tributaries and Audioholics right?

Whats also interesting is the only cable companies promoting strand jumping are the ones who advertise at AA. Why is that Jon?

You claim you don't sell your designs, you offer them for free. Then why are so many websites selling your homemade designs?

Heres are some examples:
http://www.takefiveaudio.com/4ft_biwire_89259.htm
http://www.diycable.com/catalog/products/products.htm

I salute you on your efforts to deface audioholics on this website. You have done a very good job at that since at least 95% of this forum is polarized against them. However the remaining 5% will at least have the opportunity to review material that attempts to illustrate the truth behind cables with no hidden agendas to sell DIY tweaks or generate advertising revenue from &quot;Strand Jumping&quot; promoting Esoteric Cable Vendors.</font>
 
G

Guest

Guest
<font color='#000000'>I also tried to have intelligent cable debates on Audioasylum but to no end. &nbsp;Jon Risch continually deleted any posts that referenced articles containing factual data about audio cables.

Here is my final message on the AA boards which I am sure will be deleted shortly.

Both myself and others posted an informative thread about speaker cables from John Dunlavy where we were attempting to debate it. Twice this thread was quitely deleted. I now realize that this forum is heavily biased against opposing viewpoints of the moderators. I will no longer be posting or visiting here. There are many other audio internet forums that allow intelligent and coherent discussions about audio topics without fear of censorship. I suggest others take my lead...
Good day to all!
</font>
 
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