Complete home theater for about $6000.

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nft987

Audiophyte
Dear hometheaterphiles,
If you had about $6000 to build a home theater system from scratch, what would you buy?

A good friend of mine wants a nice home theater system. I love researching products so she's been nice enough to let me pick the components. What I have to work with is about $6000 and that music will be just as important as movies. I know hi-fi but I don't know home theater so the search has been a little overwhelming. I have picked out some component possibilities but I would love to know what the experts (you guys) would get.

Thanks!
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
Is this including display? How big is the room? I take it she isn't going for Reference level listening, but how loud does she like it? What about aesthetic restrictions, such as size, finishes, etc?
 
N

nft987

Audiophyte
A display will be part of it. Now that you mention that, I should confirm that my HT shopping list has everything it needs. I'll include the models and/or brands that I'm already considering. I welcome ANY feedback and suggestions.

Display (I'm thinking Panasonic TX-P65ST50B)
Receiver (Harman Kardon AVR 3700 when available, Marantz SR6006, Anthem MRX 300)
5.1 Speakers (Paradigm, Axiom, Aperion, Definitive Technology)
Blu-Ray player (Sony BDP-S790 3D, Oppo)
Cables (no idea)

I'm not going to worry about aesthetic restrictions. The quality of sound should be as high as the budget allows (she is a musician). This system will play a lot of music so floor standing is preferable. The room they'll go in is probably over 4000 cubic feet.

Thanks!!!
 
N

nft987

Audiophyte
I'm adding GoldenEar TritonCinema Three to the speaker consideration.
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
I take it you are in the UK, given the model number you provided for the Panasonic plasma?

Prices can be quite different in other countries, not to mention the need to consider shipping costs and VAT or other taxes and duties. Many of the products we frequently recommend around here come from Internet vendors. But shipping their products to the UK can significantly increase the cost!

We also need to understand much more about the room in which this system will be used. The equipment is only half of any home theatre. The room itself is a full 50% of the system! The room tells us what size display you should buy, what type of light output and screen finish will work best (matte, glossy, anti-glare, etc.) The room will tell us how loud and deep the subwoofer(s) need to be able to play, and where they may be located. The room tells us a great deal about the appropriate selection of speakers as well. If the room has good acoustics - free of echoes and reverberation, with moderately strong reflections that are not drastically uneven from seat to seat - then you can select very neutral, wide dispersion speakers that will accurately convey the sound across a wide seating area. But if the room does not already have good acoustics (and most rooms don't), then we either need to use a portion of that budget on acoustic treatments, or we need to select speakers that are less prone to room interactions and which limit the strength of the reflections within the room.

Once we know which type of speakers are the best choice, we can select an AV Receiver and/or amplifiers that have the necessary power output to drive those speakers in that room size with the relative distances from speakers to seats that are involved. We can also look for "room correction" and equalization (EQ) programs that might be able to further help the partnership between the output from the speakers and the room's acoustics.

So...what would I buy for around $6000? The answer is: it depends! The room tells us what products we should buy, so we need to know all about the room!

However, you've already listed the products in which you are interested. It is very often the case that people come here mostly looking for a "thumbs up" as opposed to actual advice and education. If that is the case, have at it! None of the products you listed are "bad", so feel free to proceed. But if you are actually interested in recommendations and getting the best performance and value, I am happy to go through the process of selecting the best gear with you, and explaining why certain designs and products will work better for a given room or setup/placement than other "good" products, which are not "bad" choices in and of themselves, but might not produce the desired results, simply because they are better suited to a different room or setup than the room in which you will be working.

:)
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
My suggestions:
Front stage speakers: 3 x Ascend Sierra 1, Piano black, $1284 shipped
Surrounds: 4 x Infinity Primus p163 = $340
Subwoofers: 2 x Hsu VTF2 mk4 = $1192 shipped
Receiver: Denon 3312CI, $830 shipped

Total: $3646 shipped
TVs aren't my specialty, but the new Panasonics seem good, maybe the p58vt25, which is $2200.
You would still have to buy cables, mounts, and whatever other accessories you need, so you still have a chance of going over budget a bit, but with the system outlined above you should hit real close to $6k .
I recommend getting bookshelf speaker fronts instead of towers. Towers main advantage is they have bass extension below 80 hz, which is the typical crossover point for the subwoofer, so if you are using a good subwoofer, tower speakers chief advantage is negated. Tower speakers would eat into your budget for no good reason. I also recommend dual subwoofers, so localization won't a problem, and multi sub systems also smooth out the room's frequency response so the bass sounds more even. As for that model Denon, it gives up a couple new features for a hefty discount on last years model, I think it might be worth it for the equal power amp feature. Audyssey MultiEQ XT is pretty good room correction too.

If you really want towers, I would look at the EMPtek E55Ti with its corresponding E56Ci center. It has been positively reviewed and that set is the same price as the Ascend Sierras. If your friend can not bear the thought of dual subwoofers, check out the Hsu VTF15h or the Power Sound Audio XS30.
 
N

nft987

Audiophyte
Wow this gets complicated. Thank you very much. I'll gather those room details. As for the thumbs up, I got the thumbs up from the reviews I've read of those products so I am asking to see what else is out there and get an idea of how to approach the system as a whole and make the pieces fit.
Is there a preferred way to approach a HT system or certain attributes in equipment that can tailor them for less room specific applications? Not that I don't appreciate the value of taking all acoustics into account. Just curious.
Thanks again. I'll be in touch.
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Excellent. I will look forward to reading those room details!

My recommended approach to planning a home theatre is to work "big to small". Start with the components of the system that are the largest and have the greatest impact on the final performance. Those components will then inform your needs for all of the other components that must work with those largest components.

The biggest component of all is the room itself. The dimensions and layout of the room will inform you as to where your seat and display will be placed. If you have options, then you will want to place the primary seat away from close proximity to walls, but avoid the very centre of a perfectly rectangular room. The seating position will then inform you as to the distance from eyes to screen. That distance will tell you what screen size you should purchase. For example, if you follow the SMPTE recommendations (which I happen to agree with), if you sit 10 feet from eyes to screen, the ideal screen size would be 73.8 inches. You can use the Viewing Distance Calculator to figure out screen sizes and distances.

Next, the lighting in your room will tell you what kind of screen surface your TV should have, or if front projection is a good option. If the room is sunlit, you'll want a matte screen, otherwise you will get lots of glare and reflections, and a washed out image. If the room has "normal" overhead lighting, then a good screen filter and/or anti-glare coating will be sufficient. And if you have a dim or dark room, you can use almost any screen surface you like, but a glossy or glass screen will offer the highest perceived contrast and deepest black levels. A dark or pitch black room is necessary for front projection to look its best, but a high gain, retro-reflective, or "black" screen can allow you to use front projection in a merely dim room so long as your chosen projector has enough light output and you don't mind the sacrifice in black levels.

Next, we come to a more philosophical choice: do you want to use your room's acoustics "as is", or would you prefer to try to make the room a better or optimal acoustic environment?

I like to take a practical approach. First, sit in the primary seat and make a loud, single clap with your hands. If you can hear an echo, a reverberation or a sort of "sting" or "buzz" after that loud clap, then I would highly recommend spending some money on a few basic acoustic treatments, or at least using things like rugs, pillows, wall hangings, bookshelves, plants, and plush furniture to try and decrease that "slap echo". What you should also do is have a friend stand at the front of the room (where your TV will be) while you sit in the primary seat, and just try to have a conversation with that distance between you. You should be able to talk very quietly and still hear each other easily and clearly. If you find that you have to speak up in order to understand one another, or there is any difficulty what-so-ever in hearing each other clearly and easily at those positions, then you should definitely address your room's acoustics, IMO.

In a very broad sense, there are two "camps" when it comes to audio reproduction. Some people far prefer to "bring the musicians into the room". To get that sense of having a live, private concert being performed right in front of you in your room. Other people far prefer the idea of "being transported" to wherever the recording was made. To get the sense that you are NOT in your room anymore, but instead, you are in the concert hall, or the church, or the studio, or wherever the recording was made.

We use ambient sound cues to get a sense of our surroundings. We do it subconsciously, but we are constantly assessing our surroundings. If we are in a very small room, there are a ton of reflected sound waves. We all instinctively understand that sounds get quieter the farther away we are from their origin. We also understand that sounds bounce back off of hard, flat surfaces. So if we are in a small room, sounds do not have to travel very far at all before they hit a hard, flat surface and bounce back into the room again. So small rooms have lots and lots of sound reflections, while much bigger rooms have fewer, and weaker reflections. In a much bigger room, sounds must travel farther before they hit a hard, flat surface and bounce back into the room. So they get weaker as they travel those longer distances. But distance is not the only way to make sounds quieter. We can also absorb sound waves, or we can scatter them. And that's what acoustic treatments do. They either absorb or scatter the sounds.

What creates a bad acoustic environment is when you have a lot of sound waves bouncing around, and they interfere with one another, causing cancellations, double ups, and other types of wave interference. If you imaging dropping pebbles into a still pond, you can picture how the more pebbles you drop, the more erratic and choppy the waves in that pond will look. You can also picture how if you used your bathtub instead of a pond, you'd see the waves reach the walls of your tub, and then reflect back towards the middle of the tub, creating even more interference and choppiness in the waves. The same thing happens with sound waves. They're bouncing around the room, and interfering with each other, creating choppy, difficult to understand sound if there are too many points of interference all at once.

So there are a couple of things to think about here:

1) if we reduce the number and strength of the reflections, then we get fewer points of interference, less "choppiness" in the sound waves throughout the room, and easier-to-understand, clearer sound, and

2) If there are ambient sound cues included in the recording - such as those used in a movie to give us a sense of being in the same location as what is being shown on screen, or the sound cues included in a recording of a live concert that tell us we are in a concert hall or wherever the recording was made - now those recorded sound cues do not have to interfere and compete with the sound cues that are coming from the room itself. In other words, we are sort of taking your actual room "out of the equation", and letting the recording tell us the size and shape of the room instead, effectively "transporting us" to where the recording was made, or to the location we are being shown on our screen during a TV show or movie.

So that is my preference. Which brings up the question, how do we reduce the number and strength of the reflection in the room? Two ways:

a) we can use acoustic treatments or other "natural" items - like the plush furniture, rugs, bookshelves, etc. - to absorb and/or scatter the sound waves, or

b) we can choose speakers that create fewer and weaker reflections in the first place by having narrow dispersion...more of a "beam" of sound, rather than a wide, even hemisphere of sound.

But there is a trade off. It is all about the balance between direct sound that goes straight from the speakers to your ears vs. reflected sound that bounces off of at least one wall, ceiling or floor (and often several bounces) before reaching your ears. The more reflected sound we hear, the more we get a sense of the size and shape of the actual room itself, but it also makes it harder to hear the direct sound. But if the direct sound is a narrow "beam", rather than a wide, even hemisphere, then only one or two seats will be within that "beam". In other words, you will have a very small "sweet spot" where the sound is good if you use narrow dispersion, but you won't have to worry as much about reflections. On the other hand, if you use speakers with wide, even dispersion, lots of seats can enjoy good sound, but there will also be lots of reflections unless you decrease them with acoustic treatments (or simply have a gigantic room ;) )

Speakers with wide, even dispersion are the most "transparent", in the sense that they recreate the sounds in a recording "as they are", with virtually no alteration. They "tell it like it is". If you opt for these types of speakers, the speakers themselves are essentially "not to blame" if you don't like the way things sound. They're just playing back the signals that are being fed into them. But they are also completely at the mercy of your room's acoustics. So, in a good acoustic environment, it will be just like having the original performance right there in your room. You can go sit in any seat, and it will be just the same as it would have been during the original performance. The speakers themselves aren't changing anything. But they're completely at the mercy of your room's acoustics. If it would have been hard to understand what was being said or played in your room with live performers, these wide, even dispersion speakers will recreate that. Which means they won't sound very good! But it's not their "fault". They're just "telling it like it is". The live performance would have sounded the same way. It's just your room's acoustics. And now you can choose to improve your acoustics with treatments, and you'll have an accurate recreation from those speakers.

On the other hand, speakers with narrow, controlled dispersion will - to some degree - "take the room out of the equation". So long as you are sitting within the "beam" of these speakers' sound, you will be hearing much more direct sound vs. reflected sound. It's a little bit like wearing headphones. So the room's acoustics have much less of an effect on these types of speakers. And thus, you can take these types of speakers into any room, and get very much the same experience, regardless. BUT, you have to be sitting within their "beam" of sound, and they won't provide as much of a sense of your actual surroundings.

There's no "right" or "wrong" here. If you're building a dedicated theatre, with a fairly large number of seats, and attention paid to the room's acoustics, it makes more sense to choose wide, even dispersion speakers so that every seat gets more or less the same sound, and you get the most transparent and accurate reproduction of what is on the recordings. On the other hand, if you want to be able to move your speakers from room to room, and you won't be able to address the acoustics in each room with treatments, it makes more sense to choose narrow dispersion speakers that create fewer and weaker reflections in the first place, BUT with the understanding that you must sit within the "beam" of these speakers, and they won't sound good or accurate outside of that "beam".

Of course, there are speakers that sort of fall in between the two extremes. And those are your "jack of all trades" speakers. These have more of a "cone" of sound, rather than a "beam" or a hemisphere. So you get a little bit more of the room's reflections than the "beam" speakers - they'll sound different if you take them from room to room - but they're not quite as "at the mercy" of the room's acoustics as the very wide, even "hemisphere" speakers - but at the same time, they're not quite as truly transparent and accurate as those hemisphere speakers, either.

So it's all a balancing act. And it all depends on the room! So, once again, we come back to the room as our starting point :)
 
ParadigmDawg

ParadigmDawg

Audioholic Overlord
Dang FirstReflection, you are becoming my Audio hero...
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
A musician is going to have preferences. Auditioning is a good idea. I know I'm very particular with my tastes. She might actually prefer a bookshelf over a tower. I know of cases where I have preferred a bookshelf. You need to realize that form factor doesn't equate quality. A 1k bookshelf 2-way is going to have a lot more inside than a 1k Tower 3-way.

That said if you are in the UK you have amazing options some that are absolutely incredible. Be sure to shop around. Quad is definitely worth a look.

I know TLS love the ATCs I'm not sure they are that cheap though.
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
I will chime in on the video.

The Panasonic ST series is absolutely one of the best buys out there right now for a balance of quality to performance for the money.

On the other hand, if the space warrants it and they desire it, true home theater can be done with front projection for similar money.

The BenQ W1070 is a 1080p model projector with excellent brightness and good color for under $1,000 and can be paired with a fixed frame screen that is anywhere from $400 to $1,200 at 100" to 120" quite nicely. This type of setup requires a bit more thought than just hanging a plasma, but the impact of this type of theater setup is simply beyond what flat panels really offer (except that 90" Sharp (or bigger)). There are a lot more projection options, but almost anyone who has owned a decent projector will say that any typical flat panel at home is not 'theater', but is just a big TV. Definitely worth considering if the space and environment allows for it. If not, then I would push hard for the Panny ST series which is already on your list.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I love my 2 BenQ W6000 projectors. The picture is so bright & pretty. It will be tempting if BenQ comes out with a laser or LED projector. But darn, I have 2 W6000 projectors which could last me for a very long, long time.
 

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