Complete Audio System Rebuild

J

Joe Figueiredo

Enthusiast
Complete Audio System Rebuild
I recently upgraded my whole video side of things to a JVC X750R projector & 138" 2.35 screen.

Now I need to start considering how to approach an upgrade to my aging audio system (albeit, my subs are new).

What should I start with first? What would be the future upgrades (later this year)?

Budget:
Total budget for this year would be $8000 Cdn max (including all taxes, etc. - keep in mind, this is Canadian $)
From this, I would say about $3000 Cdn would be available immediately for the first purchase

Usage:
60% HT (obviously, given my video component upgrades most nights I watch video content/movies)
40% music (I LOVE music, and am looking to also do this upgrade to support this fact - but for actually dedicated listening, I'd say maybe two nights/week for music)

Existing system:
Marantz SR7002 AVR
Paradigm Monitor 7 v3 towers
Paradigm CC-370 centre
Paradigm ADP-370 surrounds
Two SVS PB-12Plus subwoofers

Source components:
Oppo 103D player
Tivo box

Room:
Large open basement (1400sqft) with 7-8' ceilings (varied)
HT/Listening area is in one end of this basement, bordered off with a couch - total area dedicated to HT/listening is ~300sqft

Items I've started considering:
-A new receiver, as for some odd reason my SR7002 just stopped passing HDMI audio (still passes HDMI video, as well as optical and RCA audio). No reason for this that I can come up with after extensive troubleshooting, so I'm just going to assume something broke.
I can still use optical from the source components for sound, but am missing out on the high quality formats like Dolby True HD, and the DTS Master Audio one. So been thinking about a Marantz 7702MKii or similar receiver.
-Upgraded front speakers: was recommended Triad Silver LCRs for replacing my L/C/R Paradigms. I really like my Paradigm Monitors, but for music they aren't that great.
 
J

Joe Figueiredo

Enthusiast
Spent some time today talking with a knowledgeable local HiFi store rep about my situation. He recommended I upgrade my SR7002 to a 7010 or Anthem of similar quality first before the speaker upgrade, and then see if my existing Paradigm Monitor 7s setup is enough for me.

As music quality was my biggest dissatisfaction at this time with my setup, he suggested instead of using RCA out of my Sonos Connect to my AVR that I should use optical to force the use of the DAC in the AVR rather than the DAC (with RCA) in the Sonos Connect. He said that could also be enough to improve 2 channel audio for me, especially with the DACs in the 7010 (over the SR7002).

He then suggested if not enough improvement, then I could look to replace just the front two towers and that could be enough (for this eventual upgrade, he suggested the M&K 150 series or some Focals, but not sure how that would match with my CC-370 centre which I would keep, as it is still sufficient for my HT usage).

I liked this phased approach, so likely going to pickup the 7010 today or tomorrow.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
a) It sounds like you have a problem with your current avr and repair or replacement are probably needed almost no matter what.
7010 is not bad choice, but you probably would just as good sound with Denon 4200W

I would also make sure to rerun Audessey Auto calibration on your 7002 one more time if ANYTHING at all changed in room since last time you've ran it (like adding new subs :) )
 
J

Joe Figueiredo

Enthusiast
I actually ended up resolving my issue with my SR7002. It ended up being that my new projector didn't like the legacy AVR, so I had to set the projector to a legacy mode (EDID-B or whatever) and then everything is fine with the SR7002.

But, I'm looking to improve sound (especially for music), and to also look for the future ability to pass 4K, etc. The new DACs in the 7010 should make a big difference.

As for the Denon 4200W, how would that differ from the 7010? I had heard the 7010 is more refined for music playback?
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
"The new DACs in the 7010 should make a big difference."
I would take that with MASSIVE grain of salt
Sound is affected by Source, Speakers and room
 
J

Joe Figueiredo

Enthusiast
"The new DACs in the 7010 should make a big difference."
I would take that with MASSIVE grain of salt
Sound is affected by Source, Speakers and room
Yes, I seem to be getting that impression from some others now too....

Would Paradigm Studio 60 v4s be a big improvement on my Monitor 7s?

Also, if so, would the Studios fit in with my existing Paradigm CC-370 centre?
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
I suggest not to jump the gun yet.
Get new AVR. Re-run auto calibration and use Dynamic-EQ - you might be surprised what your current speaker can do then properly tuned. Maybe consider getting some minimal acoustic panels
 
J

Joe Figueiredo

Enthusiast
I suggest not to jump the gun yet.
Get new AVR. Re-run auto calibration and use Dynamic-EQ - you might be surprised what your current speaker can do then properly tuned. Maybe consider getting some minimal acoustic panels
But I had thought you had just recommended I take the AVR upgrade with a grain of salt, but yet you still think it's be first upgrade for me?
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
But I had thought you had just recommended I take the AVR upgrade with a grain of salt, but yet you still think it's be first upgrade for me?
I said it, before I saw that you had fixed your issue with hdmi.
Marantz 7010 is not any more "musical" than Denon - both made by exactly same company
 
J

Joe Figueiredo

Enthusiast
I said it, before I saw that you had fixed your issue with hdmi.
Marantz 7010 is not any more "musical" than Denon - both made by exactly same company
Soooo, your'e suggesting I do the AVR upgrade and sit on the speaker upgrade for a while?

And also that the Denon 4200W is a better deal (at $600 less) than the 7010?
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
I suggest
a) rerun Audesey auto calibration first - it's free :)
b) add acoustic panels to absorb first reflections - this would give you BIG impact on very modest price
c) speakers would be next major impact - I would recommend to upgrade ALL 3 front speakers together. Otherwise matching L/R to center would to a crapshoot
d) Think hard - on which avr features you need and which are "nice to have" - I get the feeling that there are much more in second category and then use this list to decide on new avr
 
J

Joe Figueiredo

Enthusiast
thanks for that.

a) I did this, it does sound pretty good.
b) I've already been down this road with my wife and she does not want ANY acoustic panels....unfortunatley I had to first battle with her (I won) on painting all the walls a dark color (for front projection). So I have no ammo left for getting acoustic panels up.
c)ok, if I'm doing that I'm still near the beginning of demoing them. I've been recommended Triad Silver LCRs, Prestiges 75Fs, and M&K 150s.
d) Right now - no features on the AVR are required. It's mainly about improving sound for 2 channel music a bit, but I think the speakers would do the trick once I find the right ones. Sure, it would be good to be all set with an AVR for future Atmos, 4K/HDR content, DTSX, etc. but right now there's no content for that and I'm not ready to go installing a full Atmos setup in my ceiling
So unless the AVR's improved DACs over my 10 year old Marantz SR7002 would provide that much 2 channel improvement, I think I should be getting the speakers then?!?
 
J

Joe Figueiredo

Enthusiast
Would Studio 60 v4s be a good upgrade for me from my Monitor 7 v4s? I can get a killer deal on these used right now.

Would the Studio 60s fit well with my CC-370 centre channel or would I be needing to upgrade that too?
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
I would not bother with upgrading your AVR as long as everything works and you are not missing a "gotta have it" feature. Wait until something happens to require replacement.
The 7002 is a quality AVR with high quality DAC's, there have been no major breakthroughs in DAC technology since the 7002 was made. Upgrading for new DACs makes no sense!
Other than stuff like Audyssey or different processing modes (which are designed to change the sound), the difference between any two AVR's is truly minute compared to the differences between any two speakers.
If pro reviewers told the truth and just said "this sounds just like dozens of other AVRs in this price range, it does a good job of cleanly amplifying the signal and has good flexibility to accommodate various modes (such as DTS) and good RoomEQ capability" people would get tired of reading them, and they would be out of work. Consequently, they make up BS. I won't say there is no difference, but I will say if all tone processing is bypassed (direct mode) I have never experienced enough change in sound to grab my attention.
Speakers on the other hand have always provided distinct sounds, IME.

Spend as much time as you can auditioning speakers, that is where your time and $$$ should be invested.

If you like your current Paradigms for HT, definitely keep the backs and surrounds - there is not that much content that is played through them, and the Paradigms you have do a fine job with it.

I wish I had more familiarity with what you have available in Canada. I think SVS ships up there, but don't know if they have their free trial set up for Canadians (they pay return shipping if you don't like, so it is free to listen to them for 45 days in your room) - that is the way to really pick a speaker.
If this is an option for you, I would recommend you try the SVS Ultra towers - two main reasons:
1) They should fit around your $3000 Cdn immediate budget. I have heard the Ultra Bookshelf and it is a very pleasant speaker. I expect the Tower will be similar plus bass.
2) These speakers offer pretty solid bass. Here are the CEA data for the Ultra Towers (from Sound and Vision):
Bass output, tower (CEA-2010A standard)
• Ultra-low bass (20-31.5 Hz) average: 105.3 dB
20 Hz 85.6 dB
25 Hz 97.6 dB
31.5 Hz 113.2 dB
• Low bass (40-63 Hz) average: 121.4 dB
40 Hz 119.1 dB
50 Hz 119.8 dB
63 Hz 124.3 dB
Read more at http://www.soundandvision.com/content/test-report-svs-ultra-tower-surround-speaker-system-page-3#iXys3d9BeAo0sCFb.99
I think it is important that you try some towers with good bass because I am a little concerned that your subs might not keep up for music with this speaker upgrade. Maybe I am reading too much between the lines, but when I look at the Audioholics review of your sub, I am concerned that their listening session had no music. This is the first time I've noticed a sub review that did not have both music and HT content. Furthermore, all comments were about the depth and power of the PB12-Plus. No comments about articulation. Conspiracy theorist that I am, I have to wonder if they didn't just decide to step around the issue of less than perfect performance for music so as to maintain a good working relationship with one of their major advertisers. No doubt, from the review, the PB12 Plus is an excellent (maybe outrageous?:)) sub for HT!
http://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-reviews/svs-pb12-plus-2/page-5
If you compare the Ultra towers (or any other speaker that has enough bass to stand alone for music content) by themselves against the Ultra's crossed (I'd try 60Hz) to your subs, you can find out for certain. If you find the clarity of mid-low bass frequencies is lost with your subs, you need to find full-range speakers so the sub is only used for the LFE of home theater; IOW, not music. If this is the case, the Triad Silver would be a very bad choice since their FR starts at 80Hz and you would be very much forced to rely on the sub.

Aside from the bass experiment, will you like the Ultra Towers? Only you can decide that. But having them in your home for a few weeks is a great way to decide. If you like them, consider the Ultra Bookshelf for the center (the Ultra center does not seem to sound so good) and call it done.

Your budget of $8000 Cdn looks like it is around $5600 US. That is a good sum. I would forget everything else and look at some higher priced speakers. A pair of Paradigm S6's would give you good articulate bass and excellent performance all-around. They may push your budget, but perhaps as a Cdn company you get better pricing and you should be able to negotiate some on the price.

Fundamentally, the final decision is left to your ears. Personally, I want a more forward sounding (bright, but not too bright) speaker for HT than for music. For me, the Signature Series has the right character to work very well for both.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
The Studios are definitely an upgrade from the monitors.
The Monitor center would not be the best match for the Studios, nor would it be a horrible match.
You can listen to movies and look for stuff like a conversation between two people walking across from one side to the other and see if their voices change as they transition from studio to monitor to studio. If it doesn't bother you when you are listening for it, It won't when you are just enjoying a movie.
It really depends on how good of a deal you are getting. The Studios are nice speakers. See if there is a Paradigm dealership where you can hear it against the Signatures.
 
J

Joe Figueiredo

Enthusiast
The Studios are definitely an upgrade from the monitors.
The Monitor center would not be the best match for the Studios, nor would it be a horrible match.
You can listen to movies and look for stuff like a conversation between two people walking across from one side to the other and see if their voices change as they transition from studio to monitor to studio. If it doesn't bother you when you are listening for it, It won't when you are just enjoying a movie.
It really depends on how good of a deal you are getting. The Studios are nice speakers. See if there is a Paradigm dealership where you can hear it against the Signatures.
Thanks for your earlier post and this one too.

The deal is a pair of Studio 60 v4s for $850 Cdn.
Up here, I found a dealer that sells Studio 60 v5s and they retail new for $2,700 for the pair. That's why I think it's a great deal.

Apparently they have just a scuff mark near the bottom like vacuum bumped into it.

I'm going to demo them tomorrow morning, and if they sounds really good compared to my Monitor 7 v4s I'll likely pull the trigger.

As for the centre, I'll do as you suggested to test. What is the exact centre channel that is in the same line as the Studio 60 v4s?
Is it the 690 v4?

The CC370 I have right now is great for HT with my Monitors. Very clear and articulate, but I'll have to see then if I need to upgrade that too.
 
D

Don G.

Junior Audioholic
I just had to replace my receiver as well. The only issue with yours is it will not pass through any of the 4K content that is copy protected. The 7010 will, but it is over $2000. Check out the Onkyo PRSC 5530. You can get it for $1,500 and it has all the functionality of the Marantz plus, and you can mate it with what ever amp you want, use XLR balanced cables. It is fully 4K compliant, has WiFi and supports THX Ultra 11.2.

I just bought that and a Crown 2502 amp to start with. I may upgrade the power amp later, but for $550 for a 440 watts into 8 ohms up to 1200 into 2, hard to go wrong.

Just a thought
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
You can get it for $1,500 and it has all the functionality of the Marantz plus, and you can mate it with what ever amp you want, use XLR balanced cables. It is fully 4K compliant, has WiFi and supports THX Ultra 11.2.
a) No all. AccuEQ Room Calibration is nowhere near as good as industry's reference - Audyssey Platinum DSP Suite. Onkyo used to include it, but switched quietly to obviously save money on licensing.
b) 7010 fully supports 4k with hdmi 2.0 and hdcp 2.2
c) 7010 has both multichannel inputs and outputs and you can use with any external amp you want, or not, since it's has 9 included amps of 125w 8 Ohm clean power each.

d) I have older model of Onkyo which is also certified THX Ultra and it's a useless badge.

(edit: original point d - was edited for clarity)
 
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D

Don G.

Junior Audioholic
I said in my post the 7010 fully supports 4K passthrough.

The only thing you get is the Audyssey. If that is a big deal for you, fine.

And no, the Onkyo is not a useless "badge" whatever that means. You may not like it, I am sure that will keep them up at night. There are many people who are just as disgruntled with some of the crap Marantz has been putting out lately. Not going to argue with you, it is just personal opinion. Just hate it when someone turns into an asshole and trashes equipment I just purchased.

Guess next you will be telling me the Salk speakers I just picked up are no good either. I am new here, does this forum have an ignore feature?
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
I said in my post the 7010 fully supports 4K passthrough.

The only thing you get is the Audyssey. If that is a big deal for you, fine.

And no, the Onkyo is not a useless "badge" whatever that means. You may not like it, I am sure that will keep them up at night. There are many people who are just as disgruntled with some of the crap Marantz has been putting out lately. Not going to argue with you, it is just personal opinion. Just hate it when someone turns into an asshole and trashes equipment I just purchased.

Guess next you will be telling me the Salk speakers I just picked up are no good either. I am new here, does this forum have an ignore feature?
Yes, Forum does have ignore feature, However Salk speakers despite being expensive are awesome. SS8 is my personal fav speaker in any price range. SS8 performance for money puts in relatively good value category, if you in market for Hi-End speaker.
Their lower series offering are also very solid.

You can be disgruntled all you want, just don't be ignorant. I just told you that I am a fellow Onkyo owner, but I guess this passed over your head.
This that said - I got relatively lucky with 05 series, since newer models had absolutely terrible reliability issues. Not sure if Onkyo got they crap back together or not, but my next avr won't be Onkyo for sure.

As far as THX Ultra is a useless badge - Yes my AVR has, but I still consider it's useless since I had learned a lot since I bought it back in 2006.
It's a rather complicated system requires pretty deep understanding, but it doesn't make equipment without THX any less robust.

Decent article on THX.
http://hometheaterhifi.com/editorial/editor/what-it-means-and-how-to-use-it/
 
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