Clean Power for Amps

[Sarius]

OK... I'm posting up here 'cause few seem to go down to the 'Set Up Tip' area, and it does concern amps.

I've been thinking about how to get cleaner power to my system. I discovered this unit which promises all sorts of "hospital grade' goodness at what, by audiophile standards, is a very reasonable price. Anyone have any experience with these? 1800 watts and six hospital grade outlets would cover my needs quite nicely.

Thanks

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

It's a good unit, but it won't give you better highs or bass response, or lower the thd of your amplifier. If you have power surges or spikes from your electric company, that would eliminate those spikes. Just keep in mind it does nothing to enhance the musical ability of your system. Your transformer in your avr does a fine job taking a 120 volts and reducing it so your system can use it efficiently. Capacitors store extra energy for peaks, and heat sinks spread out the excess heat that may cause thd.

What makes you think you have "dirty" power to begin with? Is this "dirty" power coming before the fuse box, or within your home wiring - possibly due to other electrical equipment? Do you have dimmer switches on this same line, or a small electrical box that needs upgrading? To invest that type of money in an I.T., I'd think you'd want a dedicated circuit to that particular outlet. And after doing that, do you really need to isolate that dedicated line?

 

[Sarius]

.......

What makes you think you have "dirty" power to begin with? Is this "dirty" power coming before the fuse box, or withing your home wiring - possibly due to other electrical equipment? Do you have dimmer switches on this same line, or a small electrical box that needs upgrading?

You mean like my A/C, refrigerator, freezers in the garage, ceiling fans, air cleaners (4 running all the time) and so forth. Or my neighbors on the same side as the transformer, one of whom is running a perpetual home improvement project with a variety of power equipment, another with a bunch of kids doing many loads of laundry running the electric dryer all the time. Or the fact that I'm just down the road from some industrial plants, I know that the electrical garbage they put out is supposed to get filtered at the power company transformer .. or the fact that I'm in an area prone to thunderstorms and have had at least one lightning hit since moving here....

BTW... scouting around I also found the Furman Powerfactor Pro, which seems designed for audio and another alternative to the megabuck audiophile power conditioners that otherwise seem to be the options. Or.. I could just keep my stuff plugged into the Tripp Lite Isobars that I'm using now. I was hoping for some knowledgable feedback. I did go browsing the articles on this site, and found that the 'Cables and Power Conditioners' section gives me tons on cables, it is rather light on the power conditioners.

 

[Nick250]

Sarius wrote:"I was hoping for some knowledgable feedback."

I think Buckeyefan gave you good information. Is there something more specific that you want to know?

Nick

 

[mtrycrafts]

You mean like my A/C, refrigerator, freezers in the garage, ceiling fans, air cleaners (4 running all the time) and so forth. Or my neighbors on the same side as the transformer, one of whom is running a perpetual home improvement project with a variety of power equipment, another with a bunch of kids doing many loads of laundry running the electric dryer all the time. Or the fact that I'm just down the road from some industrial plants, I know that the electrical garbage they put out is supposed to get filtered at the power company transformer .. or the fact that I'm in an area prone to thunderstorms and have had at least one lightning hit since moving here....

BTW... scouting around I also found the Furman Powerfactor Pro, which seems designed for audio and another alternative to the megabuck audiophile power conditioners that otherwise seem to be the options. Or.. I could just keep my stuff plugged into the Tripp Lite Isobars that I'm using now. I was hoping for some knowledgable feedback. I did go browsing the articles on this site, and found that the 'Cables and Power Conditioners' section gives me tons on cables, it is rather light on the power conditioners.

Not sure why you would be impressed with 'hospital grade' outlets. I try to stay away from hospitals if I can help it.

Buckeye has given you as good an advice as possible.
If that seems insufficient, by all means, buy one of those audiophile grade products. We don't endorse them.

 

[Johnd]

Ditto: Buckeye gave you sound advice: Provide your amp with clean power via a dedicated circuit with dedicated ground. Why "try" to clean up ground loops, emi, rfi, etc., when a properly run dedicated circuit will give you the cleanest power your service panel can offer (short of a re-generator)?

 

[Sarius]

Ok... now I'm confused. I think that you-all are trying to tell me that Mr. Buckeye gave me very good advice, but but I wish you're be more clear about this.

Oddly enough, I know that a dedicated line would be the way to go. In my case, I could probably buy a couple of Richard Gray units for what it would cost me, so my post was about looking for a lower cost alternatives to that.

BTW- by 'hospital grade goodness', I wasn't just referring to the outlets, which I agree aren't that big a deal, but to the overall build quality. In general stuff built for medical use is well put together and inspected. Given that many modern medical devices use very sensitive sensors and other electronics, I'd say that the demands on 'clean' power (whatever that is) probably exceed, and certainly equal any audio need. Thus, I thought that an IT that meet those needs for a fraction of the cost of the 'audiophile' units might be of interest to someone, or that someone might have some worthwhile comment about its use in a system.

Anyhow, I went ahead and ordered the Furman unit, which seems to as good as any and better than most for just a couple of hundred bucks. If anyone asks, I'd be happy to post my impressions, otherwise, I'll be happy to keep my mouth shut and my fingers quiet.

 

[Johnd]

Ok... now I'm confused. I think that you-all are trying to tell me that Mr. Buckeye gave me very good advice, but but I wish you're be more clear about this.

In my case, I could probably buy a couple of Richard Gray units for what it would cost me, so my post was about looking for a lower cost alternatives to that.

Anyhow, I went ahead and ordered the Furman unit, which seems to as good as any and better than most for just a couple of hundred bucks. If anyone asks, I'd be happy to post my impressions, otherwise, I'll be happy to keep my mouth shut and my fingers quiet.

No. I think we'd be interested to hear your feedback on the Fuhrman. You clearly seem to want clean power, and not spend a lot of money. A properly installed dedicated circuit with a dedicated ground, as was recommended, will give you the cleanest power available, short of a re-generator. Period. You failed to respond to this advice...I think that's all that was meant (certainly by me). Post your review on the Fuhrman after the test drive...I'll read it. Cheers.

 

[Sarius]

A properly installed dedicated circuit with a dedicated ground, as was recommended, will give you the cleanest power available, short of a re-generator. Period. You failed to respond to this advice...I think that's all that was meant (certainly by me). Post your review on the Fuhrman after the test drive...I'll read it. Cheers.

Sorry, I was unclear. I had investigated the costs involved in getting me a dedicated circuit which I agree would be the best. Because of some issues in my house it would be very expensive, in the thousands of bucks. I would have to run a new service from the transformer to the house

Hence looking for a lower cost alternative that would help. I did detail all the reasons above why I think I'd like something between my fairly expensive equipment and the wall plug. IMHO the situation with that issue is even worse and more confusing than that with cables!!!! There are a number of different potential solutions with the usual confusion and hype which is very difficult to navigate through.

The Furman arrived. Very solid, quality unit. Looking at the specs, it seems to offer pretty much everything that the far more expensive units do. I plugged it in, and it works, my system still works. Now when I made a claim of hearing a difference as my Behringer amp.... er.... got more hours on it, my throat got jumped down and the thread got hijacked into a discussion about the nature of science.

So.... I make no claim, but I am fairly familiar with live Taiko drums and have attended many live performances. Taiko (those huge Japanese drums) recording put a big demand on amplifiers as there is a big very deep bass spike (some of those drums are over 7' in diameter), with a bunch of higher frequencies riding along with gives each drum its unique sound.

Now, with my system, my Taiko CD sounded good, but not quite live. It seems to me that with the Furman in the loop, it sounds more like a live performance and it seems that I can hear more of the unique characteristics of each drum on CD's that I was very familiar with. Of course, I could be deluded about this.

Never the less, if someone is looking for some sort of power conditioning, for whatever the reason, this unit is well worth considering over the far more expensive 'audiophile' ones. It looks to do pretty much everything you might wish to be done to your incoming power (surge suppression, filtering, and such), and I will state for the record that, at the very worst, it does no harm.

 

[beppe61]

Dear Mr. Sarius,

please excuse me if I take the liberty to write off topic, but I think there are a lot of people like me who wait to read your listening impressions with the Behringer A500, expecially in comparison to the Roksan Kandy III you have also at hand.
I am particularly interested in the A500 bass power with your wonderful Thiel 2.2. I mean can you get a "solid" bass with the A500 (i.e. deep, fast and powerful) ?
This doubt still stops me to run out and buy it right away.
Please tell us some more on its sound and performance.

Thank you sincerely for your very interesting thread.

Kind regards,

beppe
Italy

 

[~JC~]

dedicated circuits

I just had 2 20 amp dedicated circuits pulled from the panel in the garage to the basement home theater area. Power should be perfect. I'm only getting a UPS for the projector. Afterall, I alredy spent $2500 to the electrician for that clean power!

 

[Tomorrow]

Anyhow, I went ahead and ordered the Furman unit, which seems to as good as any and better than most for just a couple of hundred bucks. If anyone asks, I'd be happy to post my impressions, otherwise, I'll be happy to keep my mouth shut and my fingers quiet.

Interesting.

You asked our advice on Sunday. Ordered it on Tuesday(?). And reported on its performance at 5:30 a.m. on Wednesday(?).

It's like ordering pizzas..."30 minutes to your house or it's free!". LOL.

 

[Johnd]

Interesting synopsis, rjbudz. The timeframe was pretty tight, wasn't it? Perhaps we should have Sarius demo a comparable Panamax or Monster unit, and peruse his quickly posted results.

Either way, it's bad kharma (and manners) to ask for feedback on dirty power problems, and then so quickly and thoroughly "shoot" the ones offering good, sound advice.

 

[Sarius]

Dear Mr. Sarius,

please excuse me if I take the liberty to write off topic, but I think there are a lot of people like me who wait to read your listening impressions with the Behringer A500, expecially in comparison to the Roksan Kandy III you have also at hand.
I am particularly interested in the A500 bass power with your wonderful Thiel 2.2. I mean can you get a "solid" bass with the A500 (i.e. deep, fast and powerful) ?
This doubt still stops me to run out and buy it right away.
Please tell us some more on its sound and performance.

Thank you sincerely for your very interesting thread.

Kind regards,

beppe
Italy

Beppe, I will be happy to. At the moment, the Theil's are damaged. I'm driving them to the Theil factory in a couple of weeks for repairs and when they're fixed, I'll be happy to make the comparisons you request.

I might remind you that the Roksan is an integrated amp, while the Behringer is just a power amp which I'm driving off the Roksan's pre-out. The Behringer and Roksan have very similar output specs in terms of oveall power- the Theils do like power for sure. OK... back to clean power.....

 

[Sarius]

Interesting.

You asked our advice on Sunday. Ordered it on Tuesday(?). And reported on its performance at 5:30 a.m. on Wednesday(?).

It's like ordering pizzas..."30 minutes to your house or it's free!". LOL.

Yep,.. I've been doing my home work. Parts Express delivers over night....

I don't think power conditioners require much of a break-in, so I put it in the system, fired it up, and as I said, put on the Taiko CD's which I've found to be amoung the most challenging for a system. I heard what I heard, listened to some other music which certainly sounded no worse, and IMHO a bit better, than it had, indicating no bad effects. Other than waiting for my house to be struck by lightening, what else might you want to know?

I have no way to 'scientificly' test the "40 amp reserve", nor measure the filters. For this kind of component, I didn't see that listening for hours and hours was going to tell me all that much more, so I listened to an hour or so of material that I'm very familiar with and then posted.

I figured inquiring minds wanted to know. OK?

Oh... and to the other poster. My posting was at the end of a fairly extentive research and education process looking to see if there might have been a base I hadn't covered. As I indicated, I'd already considered and rejected, for cost reasons, a dedicated line. My bad for not mentioning that in my initial post. As there didn't seem to be anything or any advice that seemed better than the Furman, I just went ahead and pulled the trigger on it. The problem, BTW, with the Iso Transformer, was that they seem to have a tendency to hum... ng in an audio room, and the medical supply places don't have the same return policy as PE. The Furman is dead silent, and, as I posted, seems to do what any of the others do for far less money.

 

[Johnd]

Oh... and to the other poster. My posting was at the end of a fairly extentive research and education process looking to see if there might have been a base I hadn't covered. As I indicated, I'd already considered and rejected, for cost reasons, a dedicated line. My bad for not mentioning that in my initial post.

If that's for me, understood. I've read horror stories of people spending thousands for one dedicated line. I've worked with electrical contractors for fifteen years in commercial and residential structures alike, (including sound-proofed structures, double-walled structures, concrete pan structures, old mansions, etc.) so I know better...or perhaps I know better how to fanagle with his pricing. Either way, if it was a deliberate decision on your part...understood.

 

[Tomorrow]

Yep,.. I've been doing my home work. Parts Express delivers over night....
I figured inquiring minds wanted to know. OK?

I have an inquiring mind. How'd you order it from P. Express Tuesday and get it before 5:30 a.m. on Wednesday? I guess they really mean the 'Express' part of their name, eh?!

 

[Sarius]

I have an inquiring mind. How'd you order it from P. Express Tuesday and get it before 5:30 a.m. on Wednesday? I guess they really mean the 'Express' part of their name, eh?!

No real magic. I live not too far from them, and when I order before about 1PM, regular UPS shipping has it to me the next day. Just geographic luck

BTW- If my memory serves, I decided to order it on Monday afternoon. I got it about 1:30 Tuesday and, as I said, played with it for a couple of hours before posting my impressions on Wednesday morning. I wasn't attempting any kind of formal review. Like I said, for most of us without test labs, there just isn't that much to see in a power conditioner. As I also mentioned, I was pretty much ready to pull the trigger on something, so it didn't take long for me to determine that I had the data I needed. If you go back to my original posting, you'll see I was specifically asking about the Isolation Transformer which seemed like an interesting alternative to the types of power conditioning I'd been looking at.

As I posted, if one has convinced oneself, for whatever the reason, that one needs a power conditioner, this unit is worth considering. I still admit to curiosity as to how that medical isolation transformer might work in cases where one doesn't wish to spend thousands of bucks for a dedicated line, but not almost $400 bucks worth of curiosity

 

[Sarius]

It's a good unit, but it won't give you better highs or bass response, or lower the thd of your amplifier. If you have power surges or spikes from your electric company, that would eliminate those spikes. Just keep in mind it does nothing to enhance the musical ability of your system. ...........

BTW Mr Buckeye,

I did fail to thank you for the good advice , so Thanks!!

You were the only one to actually answer the question I asked, and I appreciated it, in fact, it was a factor in my going the Furman route. I should have been more clear about already considering and rejecting the dedicated line, so that was a good suggestion also. As it happens, I have dedicated lines running to two small outside freezers and at some point when one or both die, I'd like to replace them with a larger single unit and move one to the music room, which will be doable. Until then, I think the Furman will get the job, such as it is, done.

 

[beppe61]

Beppe, I will be happy to.
At the moment, the Theil's are damaged. I'm driving them to the Theil factory in a couple of weeks for repairs and when they're fixed, I'll be happy to make the comparisons you request.
I might remind you that the Roksan is an integrated amp, while the Behringer is just a power amp which I'm driving off the Roksan's pre-out. The Behringer and Roksan have very similar output specs in terms of oveall power- the Theils do like power for sure. OK... back to clean power.....

Dear Mr. Sarius,

thank you so much for your extremely kind and valuable reply.
I am very sorry to hear about your problems with your Thiels.
I hope everything will end well.
As I said I have a pair of old Dynaudio Recital that need current from the amp in order to sound adequately.
It is not an issue of power but more of current.
I understand from your other post that the power transformer is quite big (about 500 VA) and the A500 should be just enough.
Nevertheless the comparison with the Roksan will be very telling, as I think that the Kandy can be classified as a high-current amp.
If the bass response will be in the same league I will proceed to the buy of an A500 without any more hesitation.
Please feel free to email me privately any time.
I deem the A500 one of the most interesting cheap amp around right now.
I looked at the internals and I like them very much indeed.

Thank you very much again.
Kind regards,

beppe
italy