center channel help. B&W setup but HTM61 auditioned poorly

[slerch666]

Hello all.

I'm open for any and all suggestions for a center channel within my price range.

I'm looking for a replacement center channel speaker. Currently I'm running a Martin Logan Motion 8 I received for free, which was the impetus for my upgrading my system. I had intended on purchasing the Motion 12s to match, however listening tests left me... underwhelmed and so I ended up with what I feel are the vastly superior B&W 683s for fronts and the B&W DS3s for rears.

So the only things not B&W in my setup are my sub (upgrading to an Acoustech PL-200) and the center. The subs from B&W I've heard that match my system didn't really give me the punch I wanted, so I decided to settle on a cheap sub (paid ~$270 for the PL-200) for now, until I figure out exactly what I want.

That being said, I'm trying to replace the ML Motion 8 now and can't figure out what to go with. Since I found the BIC/Acoustech line, I've been looking at their offerings that have spec similar to the B&W HTM61 and came away looking at the BIC VK-6LCR or the Acoustech PL-28. I'm looking at these guys because you can find the $500 MSRP VK-6CLR, which almost matches the frequency range of the 683s, for as little as $170 on-line. Obviously I'd like to save money if I can but don't want to end up with something as anemic as the Motion 8 again.

I've read a bunch of reviews of the HTM61 on-line from here and AVS and the conclusion seems to be that the HTM61 really only sounds good if it is mounted vertically... I can't accommodate this in my setup, as if I could I would probably just go with a single 685.

For the answer to "what's the problem with the Motion 8," I find its performance is subdued. I have to bump the level to -4 to hear dialog while the L/R are set at -10 and then it sounds like it breaks the sound field; Audyssey actually sets it to -8, however I then can't understand dialog much at all. This is using a Denon AVR-3311 with the Audyssey calibration completed. It is currently sitting just above my TV with open air on the top and sides essentially. Is it possible it's a placement issue? Should I go under the TV instead?


Does anyone else have a recommendation on a good center that will match my 683s? My price range is anywhere from $.01 to $650 and no more. Many people recommend the higher end B&W center, but I can't afford $1300 for it. I'd prefer B&W, obviously, but if the performance of the HTM61 is as bad as reviews seem (and my own listening tests at several Magnolias in Best Buy and local Hi-Fi shop), I really want to avoid it for this setup and instead focus on finding a closer sonic match that doesn't require bat level hearing to understand and hear dialog.

Any help is appreciated, as always. Thanks for looking and reading and helping.

 

[jostenmeat]

Huh, it appears to me that the HTM61 is designed as the typical horizontal MTM center speaker.

http://www.bowers-wilkins.com/Speakers/Home_Audio/600_Series/HTM61.html

 

[slerch666]

Huh, it appears to me that the HTM61 is designed as the typical horizontal MTM center speaker.

http://www.bowers-wilkins.com/Speakers/Home_Audio/600_Series/HTM61.html

Right, that's the way it's designed, but based on this review and these measurements, it seems that B&W designed it with a very narrow listening range at its sweet spot.

Here's the quote I keep reading, then also looking on the AVS site forums quite a few people have similar negative experiences with the HTM61:

Despite the slightly uneven quality of these measurements, my very positive feelings about the sound of this system, the HTM61 excepted, has not changed. I set it up again following my review of the far more-expensive PSB Synchrony One system, and I continue to be impressed by the remarkable value the B&Ws offer. The lack of a dedicated center-channel that is up to the performance level of the 683s is a bit of a bummer, but the 685 is a worthy substitute, if you can accommodate using it vertically. The other center channel in the 600 series, the HTM62, was not reviewed—Thomas J. Norton.

The review proper can be found here.

And what he is hearing is basically the same experience I had auditioning the HTM-61, which is why I'm starting to look elsewhere.

I'd love to love the HTM-61, but auditions, for me, have not be kind nor favorable to it.


EDIT-

can't find the AVS thread I found on it, but here's another forum I found with people having similar issues.

 

[jostenmeat]

My current recommendation, whether permanent, temporary, or fleeting, is to try a "phantom" setup. This means you tell your receiver that there is NO center speaker connected, and this channel then is rerouted for your mains.

At the very least, it can "get you by" until you find the perfect solution for a center speaker.

Now, if your speakers were poor and/or that they were spread apart extremely wide, you could have a "hole" in your imaging, but in many cases this is not so.

Also, I remember playing around with stereo vs mch of the same source material with someone else's rig, and the phantom had better dialogue intelligibility (which I might attribute to speaker placement, on furniture, with lobing/combfiltering due to horiz MTM array, etc).

 

[TLS Guy]

Right, that's the way it's designed, but based on this review and these measurements, it seems that B&W designed it with a very narrow listening range at its sweet spot.

Here's the quote I keep reading, then also looking on the AVS site forums quite a few people have similar negative experiences with the HTM61:



The review proper can be found here.

And what he is hearing is basically the same experience I had auditioning the HTM-61, which is why I'm starting to look elsewhere.

I'd love to love the HTM-61, but auditions, for me, have not be kind nor favorable to it.


EDIT-

can't find the AVS thread I found on it, but here's another forum I found with people having similar issues.

All MTMs on their side have the same problem. It is impossible to avoid it. They all sound better vertical.

So your solution is to move up the food chain, and get a B & W center that is a three way, with the tweeter above the mid.

MTMs on their side look good in the pictures, from an engineering stand point it should not be done.

 

[slerch666]

My current recommendation, whether permanent, temporary, or fleeting, is to try a "phantom" setup. This means you tell your receiver that there is NO center speaker connected, and this channel then is rerouted for your mains.

At the very least, it can "get you by" until you find the perfect solution for a center speaker.

Now, if your speakers were poor and/or that they were spread apart extremely wide, you could have a "hole" in your imaging, but in many cases this is not so.

Also, I remember playing around with stereo vs mch of the same source material with someone else's rig, and the phantom had better dialogue intelligibility (which I might attribute to speaker placement, on furniture, with lobing/combfiltering due to horiz MTM array, etc).

I will give this one a shot. I'm thinking maybe I can change the angle of the center as well and maybe keep the ML until I can afford something different/better suited to my setup. I would love to stick to the B&W but the HTM-61 just didn't seem to cut it. Though I've also read of people angling the HTM-61 and getting better sound as well.

I'll try the phantom setup and see how that works out. It's not ideal, as I'd prefer the proper HT setup, but if it allows me to hear dialog more cleanly while I save up some extra money for a better center (and allow me to sell off the ML Motion 8 to add to that money), I'll be all over that solution.

Thanks!

 

[slerch666]

All MTMs on their side have the same problem. It is impossible to avoid it. They all sound better vertical.

So your solution is to move up the food chain, and get a B & W center that is a three way, with the tweeter above the mid.

MTMs on their side look good in the pictures, from an engineering stand point it should not be done.

So I could have similar issues no matter what solution I use? Or possibly at least, assuming I don't have the tweeter above the mids?

If I can pull it off, would it be better to do say, a 5.1/6.1 using the B&W 685s as my center channel(s)?

I really can't afford to go too far above $650 and probably never will. The WAF (or rather FAF... Fiance Acceptance Factor) is even pushing it at $650. The $1500 for the 683s was a real struggle. So jumping into the next line above the 600 series probably won't be something I can accomplish easily, if at all.

Thanks for the help!

 

[farrow099]

Good thread. Nice Read, A+

 

[avliner]

There's a friend of mine who's building his HT room now and he bought 02 x 685 + 1 x HTM-61 for the front array and I'm enjoying them since a month ago and I can tell they do sound pretty sweet, though.

The HTM-61 CC does sound crystal clear indeed and to be honest, I couldn't find - so far - any negatives in it, but that's me and YMMV.

BTW, my current from array comprises 3 X SVS SCS-01 and yes, the B&W's do sound better to my ears.

 

[slerch666]

There's a friend of mine who's building his HT room now and he bought 02 x 685 + 1 x HTM-61 for the front array and I'm enjoying them since a month ago and I can tell they do sound pretty sweet, though.

The HTM-61 CC does sound crystal clear indeed and to be honest, I couldn't find - so far - any negatives in it, but that's me and YMMV.

BTW, my current from array comprises 3 X SVS SCS-01 and yes, the B&W's do sound better to my ears.

Too be fair, the 685s aren't in the same range as the 683s in terms of frequency range and the 685 is a 2 way over a 3 way. While the HTM-61 is 3 way, perhaps it is better tuned to the 685s over the 683s? I don't know.

When I auditioned them they were... murky would be my best description. I'm going to try it again in audition settings but see if I can't be allowed to raise/lower the angle that the sound comes from to see if I can get what I want from it. If not, I need to look elsewhere for sure.

 

[TLS Guy]

So I could have similar issues no matter what solution I use? Or possibly at least, assuming I don't have the tweeter above the mids?

If I can pull it off, would it be better to do say, a 5.1/6.1 using the B&W 685s as my center channel(s)?

I really can't afford to go too far above $650 and probably never will. The WAF (or rather FAF... Fiance Acceptance Factor) is even pushing it at $650. The $1500 for the 683s was a real struggle. So jumping into the next line above the 600 series probably won't be something I can accomplish easily, if at all.

Thanks for the help!

I do have a solution for you, if you are prepared to do a minimal amount of work. You will stay in budget.

It is the Loki kit.

That SEAS coaxial unit is widely recognized as the best coaxial around. For a center speaker, you really want a point source. So that means a coaxial driver or a full range driver.

That SEAS driver is very neutral and will match your B & Ws.

I use that driver in my center speaker. In fact I use two of them, but the tweeter in the lower driver closest to the screen is the only tweeter used. The tweeter in the upper unit is not connected.

The Loki, you can turn anyway you want and it won't matter.

My speaker is longer than the Loki, because it is a TL.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Josten already knows what I'm going to say.

Turn the damn Audyssey off.

No, okay.

Seriously, I think some people will prefer the sound of Room EQ and some people don't; it varies from people to people, room to room, speakers to speakers, situation to situation.

If Room EQ improves the sound quality, then great.

But don't just assume that it will improve the sound quality 100% of the time for every single situation.

Okay, so you have done Audyssey, probably at least once or twice.

Now turn off Audyssey and do a manual setup. Match the speaker levels of all your speakers using a digital SPL meter. Then increase the center speaker level by +2dB above the rest.

Now see if this improves the dialogue of your center speaker.

If not, try +3dB.....then +4dB.

 

[slerch666]

I do have a solution for you, if you are prepared to do a minimal amount of work. You will stay in budget.

It is the Loki kit.

That SEAS coaxial unit is widely recognized as the best coaxial around. For a center speaker, you really want a point source. So that means a coaxial driver or a full range driver.

That SEAS driver is very neutral and will match your B & Ws.

I use that driver in my center speaker. In fact I use two of them, but the tweeter in the lower driver closest to the screen is the only tweeter used. The tweeter in the upper unit is not connected.

The Loki, you can turn anyway you want and it won't matter.

My speaker is longer than the Loki, because it is a TL.

That setup is pretty damn sweet!

With that out of the way... I never thought of going the DIY route for speaker building, and looking at that site, I'm wondering why I never thought about it. In a kit, I'd imagine it's not too overly painful to setup and build one out.

I'm saving that link. Once I have the ~$300 on the plate, I'm thinking that might be my best option.

Thanks for this!

 

[slerch666]

Josten already knows what I'm going to say.

Turn the damn Audyssey off.

No, okay.

Seriously, I think some people will prefer the sound of Room EQ and some people don't; it varies from people to people, room to room, speakers to speakers, situation to situation.

If Room EQ improves the sound quality, then great.

But don't just assume that it will improve the sound quality 100% of the time for every single situation.

Okay, so you have done Audyssey, probably at least once or twice.

Now turn off Audyssey and do a manual setup. Match the speaker levels of all your speakers using a digital SPL meter. Then increase the center speaker level by +2dB above the rest.

Now see if this improves the dialogue of your center speaker.

If not, try +3dB.....then +4dB.

I'm not above turning off Audyssey as well. I've tried doing the "by ear" method of tuning, but that didn't work so well. I've run Audyssey about 5 times now, each time working through different locations with speakers in slightly different configurations and usually it comes out about the same no matter the speaker location.

In terms of an SPL meter, is there one that people recommend? I definitely don't need top of the line since I'm probably not going to be using it frequently. I've read about using them a couple times, but figured that with Audyssey it was probably over kill. Sounds like that may not be the case?

I've also tried angling the Motion 8 towards the listening position and run Audyssey twice (on top of the 5 above) and each time it doesn't seem to make much of a difference in terms of configuration settings or, worse, improved dialog volume.

Thanks for the help! I'm going to try this out as well, though that Loki kit looks like it may have my name on it as well at some point in the not so distant future (I hope)...


So I have a couple things to try:

Run without Audyssey configured w/ SPL meter
Run with Phantom center channel
Build a Loki
Buy something else (though no one's recommended that, it's still an option)


Thanks, EVERYONE, for the help!

 

[jostenmeat]

So I could have similar issues no matter what solution I use? Or possibly at least, assuming I don't have the tweeter above the mids?

If I can pull it off, would it be better to do say, a 5.1/6.1 using the B&W 685s as my center channel(s)?

TLS, as do some of the most fanatical of experts, will not accept a horiz MTM. However, others believe the compromise is over exaggerated and often. Basically, if you are dead straight and center, you're pretty good to go with anything that is not horribly designed. It's when you start approaching about 20 degrees or so that you might have some very bad issues, at least in my impressions. A better horiz MTM will have closer driver spacing, and lower xover point . . . but that entails other compomises too (because best dialogue intelligibility usually would mean a higher xover point, respectively, like 2k-4k).

The 3way BW centers that TLS mentioned are called WTMW, and the benefit of having that dedicated single MIDrange driver is that now the redundant side by side woofers can be crossed low enough where the comb filtering is not offensive to our ears.

The bookshelf for a center is a good idea, as long as it can be vertical (upside down is fine, but NOT sideways unless you really know that the driver spacing, speaker design, and all that will be fine), but the compromise now is that you have one driver instead of two, for less SPL capability for the oft demanding center channel.

When I auditioned them they were... murky would be my best description. I'm going to try it again in audition settings but see if I can't be allowed to raise/lower the angle that the sound comes from to see if I can get what I want from it. If not, I need to look elsewhere for sure.

I am curious, are you enamored with the 683s?

I'm not above turning off Audyssey as well. I've tried doing the "by ear" method of tuning, but that didn't work so well. I've run Audyssey about 5 times now, each time working through different locations with speakers in slightly different configurations and usually it comes out about the same no matter the speaker location.

In terms of an SPL meter, is there one that people recommend? I definitely don't need top of the line since I'm probably not going to be using it frequently. I've read about using them a couple times, but figured that with Audyssey it was probably over kill. Sounds like that may not be the case?

The Audyssey mic is actually more accurate than the ubiquitous Radio Shack meter, but the former won't give you a reading! If you ask professionals in the industry, some do balk at the RS meter and its deficiencies, but it's basically what 99% of what us enthusiasts own, and I am no exception. The analog one that is.

I've also tried angling the Motion 8 towards the listening position and run Audyssey twice (on top of the 5 above) and each time it doesn't seem to make much of a difference in terms of configuration settings or, worse, improved dialog volume.

Definitely angle the speaker, no matter what you get. Look at different Auralex products like Mopads if its sitting on resonant wood furniture (kill two birds with the one stone). Otherwise, many people use doorstops too.

I'd probably just go with TLS' recommendation. I recently built a kit subwoofer, and that was all it took to convince me of the DIY aspect. I've built a DIY PJ screen since, and any future speaker upgrades will at least be a kit, if not full blown DIY. Good luck!

 

[slerch666]

TLS, as do some of the most fanatical of experts, will not accept a horiz MTM. However, others believe the compromise is over exaggerated and often. Basically, if you are dead straight and center, you're pretty good to go with anything that is not horribly designed. It's when you start approaching about 20 degrees or so that you might have some very bad issues, at least in my impressions. A better horiz MTM will have closer driver spacing, and lower xover point . . . but that entails other compomises too (because best dialogue intelligibility usually would mean a higher xover point, respectively, like 2k-4k).

The 3way BW centers that TLS mentioned are called WTMW, and the benefit of having that dedicated single MIDrange driver is that now the redundant side by side woofers can be crossed low enough where the comb filtering is not offensive to our ears.

The bookshelf for a center is a good idea, as long as it can be vertical (upside down is fine, but NOT sideways unless you really know that the driver spacing, speaker design, and all that will be fine), but the compromise now is that you have one driver instead of two, for less SPL capability for the oft demanding center channel.

Hmm. So what I'm reading here is... it's all subjective and really up to me to figure out what I like? I get that part.

If I had old bookshelf speakers, I'd probably just drop one of those, mounted vertically and see how it compares to the Motion 8. I upgraded from satellites, and after getting a proper setup those speakers are long, long gone and I'm trying to forget they ever existed.

All I know, despite seemingly well designed, the Motion 8, no matter the positioning, just can't compare with the rest of my system. I want an even sound stage between the fronts and I just can't seem to pull it off w/ the Motion 8s. I also know that, for whatever reason, the HTM-61 just sounded off in listening tests. I still want to try it out again and see if the sales people will let me angle it up/down to point it towards the listening area and see how it performs.

The problem with the B&Ws TLS mentions... I can't afford those as discussed. Wish I could.

I am curious, are you enamored with the 683s?

I'd say yes.

When I did my audition, I picked a few speakers I'd like to audition based on similar specs/pricing and tried to find local places (Magnolia in Best Buy and a local Hi-Fi shop). I tried the Motion 10s and 12s from Martin Logan. I tried a Mirage OS³. Two Def Tech models. The B&W 684s and the 685s. I also tried some of the B&W CMs, which I absolutely loved but one speaker was pretty much my entire BUDGET for front speakers. For fun I also tried the non-powered electrostat from ML, which sounded amazing... so long as you sat in that pinpoint center sweet spot. Loved the sound, but I knew I'd never sit in a single position in the room and it was especially ill suited to HT if I ever wanted others to be able to enjoy my setup!

I also auditioned I believe 3 different Klipsch setups (might have been an Energy in there). I liked them, but it didn't give me the same "wow" that the 683s did for the price. I recall going from the Motion 12s, which had the same MSRP, and feeling like the 683s were like pulling a blanket off the Motion 12s with the level of clarity they offered.

So yeah, I'd say I am enamoured with the 683s. They were, without question for me, the absolute best speaker for me at that price range. I'd love the Diamonds (or a pair of Nautilus!), but that's a pipe dream unless I win the lottery.

The Audyssey mic is actually more accurate than the ubiquitous Radio Shack meter, but the former won't give you a reading! If you ask professionals in the industry, some do balk at the RS meter and its deficiencies, but it's basically what 99% of what us enthusiasts own, and I am no exception. The analog one that is.

I'll probably head out to RS and pick one up then. Website indicates they don't have them in stock on-line, but the local RS has it in stock supposedly. We shall see.

Definitely angle the speaker, no matter what you get. Look at different Auralex products like Mopads if its sitting on resonant wood furniture (kill two birds with the one stone). Otherwise, many people use doorstops too.

I'd probably just go with TLS' recommendation. I recently built a kit subwoofer, and that was all it took to convince me of the DIY aspect. I've built a DIY PJ screen since, and any future speaker upgrades will at least be a kit, if not full blown DIY. Good luck!

The Auralex products will be difficult for me to obtain, given the closest place that sells them seems to be in Philly, which is ~60 mins from the house and not somewhere I go often. I'll keep it in mind though, for sure as looking at their website that would be good for the center channel, no matter what I end up with.

DIY opens up a whole different aspect to the hobby (or lifestyle) of home theater and is something I'm definitely keeping in mind when I figure out what I want to do.

Thanks for all the help!

 

[jostenmeat]

The Auralex stuff is available from a great variety of places, and most of these places offer free shipping.

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=s&hl=en&q=auralex+mopad&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=14170251610592710988&sa=X&ei=mp7NTZueJ8LLgQeUhM3CDA&ved=0CEwQ8wIwAQ&biw=1680&bih=869#

 

[slerch666]

The Auralex stuff is available from a great variety of places, and most of these places offer free shipping.

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=s&hl=en&q=auralex+mopad&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=14170251610592710988&sa=X&ei=mp7NTZueJ8LLgQeUhM3CDA&ved=0CEwQ8wIwAQ&biw=1680&bih=869#

Thanks for that! I just went to their website and searched for dealers. Even Amazon stocks it, so Amazon prime is going to be getting me some Auralex pretty quickly.