Ceiling antennas for RF reception - any suggestions

[TXBui]

I have cat 5 running to all the ceiling speaker holes (two 8-in holes per room for the speaker pairs) throughout the house for receiving RF remote control signals. Before I install the speakers, I figure I'd better install the receiving antennas so I don't have to do this twice.

The intent is to have my AV electronics in the basement, and all the remote controls would transmit to the antennas hidden behind the speakers (in the ceiling holes) and communicate with the electronics in its separate room on the floor below.

My question: What antennas do you suggest I purchase to do this that can terminate with cat 5? Would I need just 1 antenna per room, or 2 antennas per room (using both speaker holes and the dedicated Cat 5). Any website and part numbers would be much appreciated.

 

[highfigh]

That's not how RF remotes work. They have a dedicated RF receiver that mounts close to the equipment that will be controlled and the emitters or cables connect to it, usually in the equipment cabinet. If the remote will be used far from the main equipment and you would use a Harmony RF remote, an RF extender could be placed in the area where the remote commands would be sent and it would relay the commands to the next RF extender that actually connects to the emitters. URC has an RF receiver that can be mounted remotely, but it would only be needed in a really large building or one where something blocks the RF signal.

What remote are you thinking of using and what equipment will you be controlling?

 

[TXBui]

RF Antennas for Remote Extensions ** how to set them up

Highfigh,
I'm having trouble following your design to me. Currently, I have many speaker holes in my ceiling with 10" speaker rings already installed before sheet rock was done. Inside the ceiling rings are: one cat 5 to basement AV room, 1 bundle of speaker wire for each speaker running to the immediate wall for volume control; and from the volume control one bigger speaker wire bundle to the basement AV room.

I was thinking all my AV electronics would be in the basement AV room. I would have no AV equipment at the upstairs TV location, for example. So my remote control would send a signal to the ceiling antenna, which then relays the signal to the AV system in the basement to send the DirectTV signal to the bedroom TV, and wa-la, the bedroom TV has signal from the basement. The way the AV guy explained this to me when he designed it, all AV was supposed to be in basement so I would have a clutter-free entertainment center. Are there no systems that work this way? I would ask the AV guy, but he has shut down operation and cannot be found.

thx.

 

[highfigh]

Highfigh,
I'm having trouble following your design to me. Currently, I have many speaker holes in my ceiling with 10" speaker rings already installed before sheet rock was done. Inside the ceiling rings are: one cat 5 to basement AV room, 1 bundle of speaker wire for each speaker running to the immediate wall for volume control; and from the volume control one bigger speaker wire bundle to the basement AV room.

I was thinking all my AV electronics would be in the basement AV room. I would have no AV equipment at the upstairs TV location, for example. So my remote control would send a signal to the ceiling antenna, which then relays the signal to the AV system in the basement to send the DirectTV signal to the bedroom TV, and wa-la, the bedroom TV has signal from the basement. The way the AV guy explained this to me when he designed it, all AV was supposed to be in basement so I would have a clutter-free entertainment center. Are there no systems that work this way? I would ask the AV guy, but he has shut down operation and cannot be found.

thx.

Remote controls aren't operated with any kind of generic antenna. They use one specifically made for that brand/model line of remotes and that antenna is part of a radio frequency receiver that re-sends the commands to each piece of equipment. The fact that the remote would transmit RF means it will go through most building materials and unless the building is really large, an antenna at the ceiling will be unnecessary. If the remote signal gets to the ceiling, it should make it to the basement.

I would look at the volume control location for a Cat5e cable in addition to the speaker wires. Each control should have one 4 conductor speaker cable and should be able to send signal to a minimum of either one dual voice coil ceiling speaker or a pair of ceiling or wall speakers. At most, the control should have jumpers to allow impedance matching for multiple speaker operation. If the original system design was for A-Bus keypads (or something like that), it should have at least one Cat5, for power supply and possibly for IR receiver.

If you paid this guy to design a system for your house, you own that design and should have gotten documentation of wire/cable runs, keypad/volume control locations, head end location, etc. If not, go after this guy. Anyone can be found, eventually and he owes you for what you paid. Use google and the rest of the internet to find him- it's usually not that hard to track people down. If he was a CEDIA member, they may have new contact info and if he was actually registered with the state Department of Revenue, they'll have info, too.

As far as having the system in the basement or any place that's out of sight, you'll want to keep the equipment accessible that needs to be loaded with some kind of media, like CDs, DVDs, etc. This shouldn't be a problem unless the basement has a finished ceiling and no easy way to run cabling. The cable ends at the head end should all be marked for their destination. If not, you'll need to get a cable tracking setup and document this info. You don't need to buy the most expensive one, just get one that works. If you can't or don't want to do this yourself, you'll need to hire someone.

Regarding the bedroom TV signal, you'll need to use some kind of distribution amplifier (analog signals- RF, composite video or component video) or repeater (HDMI, which would be the most expensive way) to get the source signal to each TV. If the guy ran all of the cabling properly, you'll be OK but if you don't see a group of coax at the head end and locations with coax and possibly several other cables at various locations, it's not going to be a quick & simple installation for hte rest of what you'll need. You'll need a full-featured AV receiver, at the very least, for switching the sources. If you want to watch different programs at more than one location, it will be more complex.

 

[highfigh]

I need to make a correction- the last sentence about A-BUS should read "If the original system design was for A-Bus keypads (or something like that), it should have at least one Cat5, for audio, a 4 conductor speaker cable for power supply and possibly another Cat5e for IR receiver."

 

[TXBui]

Antennas for floor-separated AV equipment

Highfive,
thanks for the insights. I recognize that each remote is usually IR directly to it's own device. My floors are 2 3/4" thick of concrete and tiles (from radiant piping) and I doubt much signals would go through without excessive attenuation. So I was thinking of using a universal remote, on the RF band rather than IR, to communicate to the ceiling antennas, which then is converted to IR in the basement in front of the AV equipment. Am understanding you say there is not such antenna/Ir/RF equipment arrangement?

Three years ago when money came by easier, a sophisticated system seemed like it was a must-have. Now it looks more like a wish list. Unfortunately, the cable infrastructure is now in place (sheet rocked and all) for a home-run-to-basement design. That is, all ceiling speakers and TV AV cables (5 component cables) and 2 speaker wires) are ran down to the basement.

I do have cat5 at the speaker volume controls and cat5 at ceiling speaker locations. What ever plans the installer had at the time with these Cat5s don't really matter anymore since I am looking for a more simple and hopefully economical solution. For now, I feel confined to my already-built homerun cable system.

From a solutions stand point, I wanted to be able to have centralized audio coming from my computer (upstairs), and centralized video so that I would only need 2 set top boxes and 2 Tivos for the whole house. I currently have 10 tv locations in the house. of course, all this remote electronics placements would only work if I can solve the RF/IR remote control challenge.

Any thoughts in these areas? Thx.

 

[TXBui]

Antennas for floor-separated AV equipment

Highfive,
thanks for the insights. I recognize that each remote is usually IR directly to it's own device. My floors are 2 3/4" thick of concrete and tiles (from radiant piping) and I doubt much signals would go through without excessive attenuation. So I was thinking of using a universal remote, on the RF band rather than IR, to communicate to the ceiling antennas, which then is converted to IR in the basement in front of the AV equipment. Am understanding you say there is not such antenna/Ir/RF equipment arrangement?

Three years ago when money came by easier, a sophisticated system seemed like it was a must-have. Now it looks more like a wish list. Unfortunately, the cable infrastructure is now in place (sheet rocked and all) for a home-run-to-basement design. That is, all ceiling speakers and TV AV cables (5 component cables) and 2 speaker wires) are ran down to the basement.

I do have cat5 at the speaker volume controls and cat5 at ceiling speaker locations. What ever plans the installer had at the time with these Cat5s don't really matter anymore since I am looking for a more simple and hopefully economical solution. For now, I feel confined to my already-built homerun cable system.

From a solutions stand point, I wanted to be able to have centralized audio coming from my computer (upstairs), and centralized video so that I would only need 2 set top boxes and 2 Tivos for the whole house. I currently have 10 tv locations in the house. of course, all this remote electronics placements would only work if I can solve the RF/IR remote control challenge.

Any thoughts in these areas? Thx.

 

[Hi Ho]

Good RF remote systems will go right through most walls and floors. Here is an example of an RF based remote system.

Remote

RF Receiver/IR Converter

RF Antenna

The antenna can be mounted remotely and has the proper terminals to connect to catagory wire or any other small gauge wire.

If you are concerned about the RF signals not going through the floor into the basement then it would not hurt to install the antenna at one of the speaker locations where CAT5 is run.

Another solution (and probably a better one) for a whole house system is the MSC-400 System Controller which can be located with the gear and remotely controlled via the antenna.

 

[highfigh]

Highfive,
thanks for the insights. I recognize that each remote is usually IR directly to it's own device. My floors are 2 3/4" thick of concrete and tiles (from radiant piping) and I doubt much signals would go through without excessive attenuation. So I was thinking of using a universal remote, on the RF band rather than IR, to communicate to the ceiling antennas, which then is converted to IR in the basement in front of the AV equipment. Am understanding you say there is not such antenna/Ir/RF equipment arrangement?

Three years ago when money came by easier, a sophisticated system seemed like it was a must-have. Now it looks more like a wish list. Unfortunately, the cable infrastructure is now in place (sheet rocked and all) for a home-run-to-basement design. That is, all ceiling speakers and TV AV cables (5 component cables) and 2 speaker wires) are ran down to the basement.

I do have cat5 at the speaker volume controls and cat5 at ceiling speaker locations. What ever plans the installer had at the time with these Cat5s don't really matter anymore since I am looking for a more simple and hopefully economical solution. For now, I feel confined to my already-built homerun cable system.

From a solutions stand point, I wanted to be able to have centralized audio coming from my computer (upstairs), and centralized video so that I would only need 2 set top boxes and 2 Tivos for the whole house. I currently have 10 tv locations in the house. of course, all this remote electronics placements would only work if I can solve the RF/IR remote control challenge.

Any thoughts in these areas? Thx.

First, the "concrete" is probably gunnite, which is low density and 2-3/4" isn't enough to make a huge difference. Also, the tubing is probably plastic, right? Another non-issue.

It's not that RF antennas never use Cat5e but most will work without adding one unless the house is extremely large or make of materials that are known to block RF. Refrigerators, large ranges/ovens and metal insert fireplaces all do this. The MRF-250 will work if htis becomes an issue but only with a URC remote which, BTW, are some of the best out there. The "problem" is that the better ones aren't generally sold cash and carry or through consumer outlets because the programming is more complex. This isn't to say that consumers can't program them but URC doesn't want to be inundated with "How do I program this MX-xxx remote?" calls.

The remote you need is determined by how much you want it to do. If you want 6 video sources to feed the 10 TVs, all from one location, you'll need a matrix, too. The fact that the whole place has been rocked doesn't mean adding cabling is out of the question but where you do this will be more critical since you have under floor heating. The closets are usually logical places to feed cabling because there's not much reason to heat them and since you have a basement, it's easier than a house that doesn't.

I think the best thing to do now is document where each cable goes, how many and how they're grouped. You'll need some kind of cable tracer set (they don't have to be expensive to work) and it's not a bad idea to get a label maker. You may have more than one color of Cat5e and if that's the case, one will be for voice, with the other for data. Once that's done, you can proceed with the plan (that was ended by the contractor- something I would go after him for). If you post the results of the cable survey, we can come up with some ideas.