CD player a waste of money?

[sksfreund]

I thought I was more of an audiophile than I guess I really am, because I recently bought a Musical Fidelity A3.2 CD player expecting it to be better than my Cambridge Audio D300SE player, but I can't tell a lick of difference between the two. My thought is that a 1600 dollar player should kick a 250 dollar players butt. I have this same thread going on Audiogon, where one guy told me I need to get the player isolated (i.e. on a more solid surface) and that should make a difference. I am asking for everyone's opinion on Audioholics because I believe it is a more truthfull site. I have researched as much as I can, and all I see is that cd players don't sound different if you are using the digital out. I am not, I am using the analog out. Any thoughts?

 

[highfihoney]

My thought is that a 1600 dollar player should kick a 250 dollar players butt. I have this same thread going on Audiogon, where one guy told me I need to get the player isolated (i.e. on a more solid surface) and that should make a difference. Any thoughts?

in my systems isolating the cd player from vibrations has seemed to make a difference for the better but i have to question the recomendation allready given you,if isolation is causing your new player to sound the same as the old player wouldnt isolating the old player also add the same benifits?

as long as im running good quality cd players the only time i can hear a real difference is when im running one solid state player & one tube player in the same system.

 

[WmAx]

I thought I was more of an audiophile than I guess I really am, because I recently bought a Musical Fidelity A3.2 CD player expecting it to be better than my Cambridge Audio D300SE player, but I can't tell a lick of difference between the two.

If both devices are operating properly, and were designed to be linear(as opposed to purposeful distortions designed into the unit), then their is no reason for an expensive player to sound different as opposed to a low cost player, given controlled(level matched within 0.1dB) and blinded conditions. Most differences are those due to psychological bias affect(s) upon perception, not actual sound difference(s). In blind tests, people have failed to identify highly regarded audiophile equipment as compared to portable Discmans, when they met the qualifications as I set above.

-Chris

 

[Hi Ho]

How do you have it connected to your receiver? If you're using the digital connection, all players will sound the same because the D/A converters in your receiver are doing the work.

The difference between CD players lies in their D/A converters and other analog output components. If you aren't using the analog outputs, you are effectively eliminating those advantages.

 

[sksfreund]

As I said before, I am using the analog outputs, not the digital, and it goes into a Musical Fidelity A3.2 preamp (no D/A converters), so the D/A converters in the cd player are the ones doing the converting. The problem is that the two players don't sound any different even though they are using their own D/A converters.

 

[WmAx]

As I said before, I am using the analog outputs, not the digital, and it goes into a Musical Fidelity A3.2 preamp (no D/A converters), so the D/A converters in the cd player are the ones doing the converting. The problem is that the two players don't sound any different even though they are using their own D/A converters.

It's not a problem; it just means that both players are operating properly. If they really did sound different, then it would be a problem, as this would mean that one of the units is either malfunctioning or purposely designed to distort the sound.

-Chris

 

[gene]

My thought is that a 1600 dollar player should kick a 250 dollar players butt. I have this same thread going on Audiogon, where one guy told me I need to get the player isolated (i.e. on a more solid surface) and that should make a difference.

Also if you use cable elevators to lift your cables off the floor and reduce static electricity, it will work wonders

All kidding aside, save your money and invest in improving your room acoustics. You will go much further with improving your room acoustics than upgrading an already good CD player.

 

[mtrycrafts]

How do you have it connected to your receiver? .

Where is jaxvon jumping all over you for misreading a post?

 

[mtrycrafts]

I thought I was more of an audiophile than I guess I really am,

An honest man not afraid to admit not being a 'golden ear.'

My thought is that a 1600 dollar player should kick a 250 dollar players butt.

The $ensible Sound did a DBT comparison between an $80 RCA carousel player and ones costing $1000s. None of the listeners could differentiate between then.
Historically speaking, most are the same way, popular beliefs not withstanding.

I have this same thread going on Audiogon, where one guy told me I need to get the player isolated (i.e. on a more solid surface) and that should make a difference.

Total absurdity unless your CD player is miss tracking due to gross physical vibrations induced having poor flexible floors and lots of jumping by the player.

I am asking for everyone's opinion on Audioholics because I believe it is a more truthfull site.


That it is.

 

[Hi Ho]

Where is jaxvon jumping all over you for misreading a post?

Hahaha, it's not the first time. I hate when I do that.

 

[tbewick]

'I have this same thread going on Audiogon, where one guy told me I need to get the player isolated (i.e. on a more solid surface) and that should make a difference.'

In one of my more stupid moments, I was duped by this, and bought an unnecessarily expensive hi-fi rack. It doesn't make one bit of a difference. Those 'isolation spikes' are really there to stop you getting marks in the carpet and have nothing to do with sound quality.

 

[sksfreund]

still curious

thank you everyone for your responses. I have a question still for WmAx. I see even some reviews here on audioholics that say the audio quality changes between cd players. They don't come out and say that they are, but they leave the possibility open by saying things like "the audio quality on player x is said to be pretty good". I guess I'm just curious where do you get your information? I am not doubting you, in fact I am pretty sure you are correct seeing as how I can't hear a difference, but I just want some further reading and information on the topic. If you have any that would be great. Also, would you then also disagree with highfihoney about tubes sounding different than solid state players?

 

[Sleestack]

I'm going offfer slightly different perspective. I have owned and own a variety of high-end sources. I would have to say that most CD players are going to satisfy most consumers but disagree that they all sound the same. Many do sound the same, but there are audible differences between some players. For instance, the analog ouput of a Denon 5910 does sound different than that of a Meridian G08. I'm not sure what causes these differences, nor do I necessarily think they make one better than the other. It is entirely possible that you didn't hear any difference bwetween your 2 players because none exists, but I wouldn't draw conclusions about all players based on your limited experience. I also wouldn't base it on the experiences of most members here, b/c most members here have not spent extended periods of time with a variety of high end sources. That being said, I think many players will sound the same and that most people will do just fine with a solid, dependable source. For me, however, I do not feel all high-end sources are a waste of money.

 

[Rock&Roll Ninja]

I have a NAD c521i, and a Sony CDP-355 (300 disk changer). Both sound excellant.

If you really want a CD play that sounds different, I suggest an esoteric Tube CD player. (but they're pricey).

 

[furrycute]

Well, I've heard some high end setups, and they do sound "different" from the kind of everyday setups which I am familiar with.

But redbook CD techonology being what it is, it is by no means a cutting edge technology anymore. Even a $20 portable CD player can respectably play back a redbook CD.

It is true that you can use some really expensive DACs, to get higher fidelity analog sound. But how expensive can those DACs get? I know standalone DACs can cost thousands. But how much better are those standalone DACs compared to a respectable DAC found in a decent high end receiver? Not much I would guess.

As to the CD reading mechanism. That's just pure nonsense. Even the high end CD player manufacturers are switching to using computer grade CD ROM drives. No one makes dedicated audio CD reading mechanisms anymore.


I have always had the suspicion that those high end CD player manufacturers somehow tweak the sound, like using a built in EQ, so they actually do make their CD players sound different. So people who buy these ultra expensive CD players can somehow feel justfied in spending this much on a CD player. Anyway, that's just my suspicion.


As for myself, I'll never spend $1000 on a damned CD player.

 

[mtrycrafts]

thank you everyone for your responses. I have a question still for WmAx. I see even some reviews here on audioholics that say the audio quality changes between cd players. They don't come out and say that they are, but they leave the possibility open by saying things like "the audio quality on player x is said to be pretty good". I guess I'm just curious where do you get your information? I am not doubting you, in fact I am pretty sure you are correct seeing as how I can't hear a difference, but I just want some further reading and information on the topic. If you have any that would be great. Also, would you then also disagree with highfihoney about tubes sounding different than solid state players?

http://www.matrixhifi.com/pruebasciegas.htm

This is in Spanish but if you used the google toolbar translation feature, it works. There are some CD DBTs listed.

Masters, Ian G 'Do All CD Players Sound the Same?' Stereo review, Jan 1986, pg 50-57.

Pholmann, Ken C. '6 Top CD Players: Can You Hear the Difference?' Stereo Review, Dec 1988, pg 76-84.

Phollmann, Ken C. 'The New CD Players: Can You Hear the Difference?' Stereo Review, Oct 1990, pg 60-67.

CD Player Comparison, The Sensible Sound, # 75, Jun/Jul 1999.

CD Player Comparison, The Sensible Sound, # 74, Apr/May 1999.

 

[mak99]

It is true that you can use some really expensive DACs, to get higher fidelity analog sound. But how expensive can those DACs get? I know standalone DACs can cost thousands. But how much better are those standalone DACs compared to a respectable DAC found in a decent high end receiver? Not much I would guess.

A decent outboard DAC will make a difference. I have a Rega Planet (original) that I have connected via both the analog outputs (Kimber Hero) to the CD input. I also have the Planet's digital out running thru a Rega Io DAC (Kimber D-60). The analog out from the Io (also Kimber Hero) goes into the Aux 1 of my Rega Mira (original) amplifier. A-B'ing the two inputs shows the sound via the outboard DAC has a slight edge to the onboard DAC. The soundstage is slightly wider, with just a bit blacker background. The vocals, guitars, horns, and cymbals take on a "more there" sound, just a bit more natural. Could I tell you which one I was listening to if you turned on my system and just played one source? Probably not. But side-by-side comparison can sure show the slight advantage, so I'm keeping the outboard DAC in my system.

I have always had the suspicion that those high end CD player manufacturers somehow tweak the sound, like using a built in EQ, so they actually do make their CD players sound different. So people who buy these ultra expensive CD players can somehow feel justfied in spending this much on a CD player. Anyway, that's just my suspicion.

The quality of the electronics and onboard DACs will make a difference in sound, no doubt. I primarily chose my Rega Planet as they designed it to sound "as analog as possible". It's definitely more natural sounding than my old Pioneer magazine-type changer, and it works even better with the better DACs found in the Io.

'I have this same thread going on Audiogon, where one guy told me I need to get the player isolated (i.e. on a more solid surface) and that should make a difference.'

Isolation also helps, esp. if your equipment is on wooden floors. Use a wall mount if possible - just compare the performance increase out of a good turntable. I used cone points on said Pioneer changer housed in an old wooden display cabinet, and it definitely helped - not a ton, but enough to notice.

Mass loading also helps and can be done cheap! Try garden pavers which are cheap at hardware stores. If it doesn't convince you, tkae it back for a refund, but at least you'll have tried it for yourself...

 

[mtrycrafts]

Isolation also helps, esp. if your equipment is on wooden floors. Use a wall mount if possible - just compare the performance increase out of a good turntable. I used cone points on said Pioneer changer housed in an old wooden display cabinet, and it definitely helped - not a ton, but enough to notice.

Mass loading also helps and can be done cheap! Try garden pavers which are cheap at hardware stores. If it doesn't convince you, tkae it back for a refund, but at least you'll have tried it for yourself...

Well, I was going to pass up the post but this I cannot.

Unless your CD player skips, you do not have any issues for isolation, period, end of story. And, that skipping must be from induced physical vibration, not because it cannot read gross errors.

 

[WmAx]

thank you everyone for your responses. I have a question still for WmAx. I see even some reviews here on audioholics that say the audio quality changes between CD players. They don't come out and say that they are, but they leave the possibility open by saying things like "the audio quality on player x is said to be pretty good". I guess I'm just curious where do you get your information?

I can not point to any single source of information, because this is a complex matter, dependant on being familiar with the associated perceptual research and typical measured behaviour of various products. But to put it bluntly: considerable research has gone into development/research of the critical parameters to audibility. At this time, no credible evidence has been provided that supports the theory of mysterious/unknown parameters affecting actual sound quality. Such evidence would be as simple as proving, in proper controlled blind tests, that two systems that measure similarly(according to known perceptual research) can be readily differentiated between. But remember: sound can be different between units due to defect or purposefully designed modifications of the output signal. For example, a company named Audio Note produced a DAC that lacked an anti-alias filter. This is a critical part of proper function of digital audio reproduction. This system distorts the output signal. This is, of course, measurable.

I am not doubting you, in fact I am pretty sure you are correct seeing as how I can't hear a difference, but I just want some further reading and information on the topic. If you have any that would be great. Also, would you then also disagree with highfihoney about tubes sounding different than solid state players?

Mtrycrafts provided you with some useful links to get you started. No need for me to be redundant.

-Chris

 

[furrycute]

I primarily chose my Rega Planet as they designed it to sound "as analog as possible". It's definitely more natural sounding than my old Pioneer magazine-type changer, and it works even better with the better DACs found in the Io.

This is exactly my point about high end CD player manufacturers tweaking the sound of their CD players.

Your old Pioneer CD changer is probably giving you a accurate reproduction of the musical signals recorded on your CDs. Your rega is probably cutting off some of the trebble frequencies, giving a slight boost in midrange and midbass frequencies, to make the output sound more "analog."

My opinion is that each high end CD player manufacturer has their own specific "house sound." And that "house sound" is each company's specific freqquency tweaking in sound output.



I have no problems with signal adjustment. I just have problems spending a couple of thousand dollars on a set of fixed parameter signal adjustments built into a CD player, when I can spend a couple hundred dollars on an infinitely more adjustable digital equilizer.