CD, HDCD, SACD, DVD-A, DTS-CD, what is it all about?

[captain_tinker]

Hello folks,
I have been slowly learning more and more about digital audio since I bought my receiver and dvd player about 2 months ago. I had heard about DVD-A, and SACD a little bit, and so bought a DVD player that would play them, even though I did not own any of them yet. I have seen a lot of pro's and cons both here in these forums, and also on other sites regarding both of these formats. I still have not had a chance to hear either one, since I have not yet bought one. However I was looking at Amazon.com for some SACD's or DVD-A's and found something else that I had not heard of. A DTS encoded CD. I had heard of HDCD's, and even owned a few of them that sound very nice on my receiver, since it has an HDCD decoder on it, but I had never heard of a DTS-cd. So, I started to look it up. I found the following review of a Sting album by our own Gene DellaSala:

http://www.audioholics.com/productreviews/avsoftware/dvd-audio/stingtensummonerstales.php

That got me thinking, because I had seen DTS on DVD's mostly before. I had also seen Dolby Digital, usually a lot more often than DTS on DVD's. In fact, my Disney's Fantasia DVD has a DTS track option on it, and it sounds very nice. (I only have a 3.0, L-C-R, speaker config at the moment, but it still sounds very nice)

So I started to do some research on DTS-cd's. I found that there doesn't seem to be very many out there, at least not as many as SACD's or DVD-A's. I did find some DTS and DD encoded wav files on line, and found that you could burn them to a cd as a regular audio cd, and it would play over the digital out ports on your DVD, or CD player, or SP/DIF out on your computer, to a receiver equipped with the DTS or DD decoders, and it would sound very nice. I am assuming that these DTS-cd's are the same things. Here is the link I found in case any are interested in doing this, there are some very nice songs on there, along with some very funny samplers, and demos:

http://www.sr.se/multikanal/english/e_index.stm

So then the next thing I decided to do, since I don't yet own any DVD-A's or SACD's was to see if I could just find and download an example or demo of one (legally preferably), burn it, and play it and see how it sounded. I tried some free and some trial programs to create a DVD-A, and did a little bit of research into it. It seems that a DVD-A can have, but does not necessarily have video on it as well. The Audio_TS directory is the one that seems to have the audio on it, while the Video_TS directory has the video. I was able to create some .AOB (audio object) files with their corresponding .IFO, and .BUP files etc, and placed them into Nero to try and burn them. But oddly Nero would not burn it unless there were some video files. I guess that is because it was not coded to burn a DVD-A. Owell. So I used some other program that supposedly creates a DVD-A. But it did not create anything under the Audio_TS directory. So I doubt it is a real DVD-A. My Pioneer 588a did not recognize it as a DVD-A, but just a DVD-V. So that did not work.
I thought about maybe trying to burn an SACD, but then I thought, if what I understand about those is true, I don't think I'd be able to do that. It seems to have a second layer for the other data, and a CD layer for the regular stuff. Maybe that's just the Hybrid's? I don't know.
I also don't seem to know what encoding system is being used on either DVD-A, and SACD. I know that CD is a 16 bit pcm, HDCD is usually 24 bit, DTS audio cd is just DTS encoded cd files on a cd that can be listened to only with a decoder for DTS. The same with DD audio cd's. So what is used on SACD and DVD-A?

So, in any case, at this point, it seems that there are really a lot of options out there to listen to.

 

[j_garcia]

You cannot rip or burn SACD, period - the hardware at the consumer level does not exist. DVD-A can be done, but not legally.

DTS-CDs essentially became DVD-A and there are basically no new DTS-CDs coming out these days (many are still in print, but no new ones are being done AFAIK). These are specially encoded CDs that are able to pass the DTS bitstream, which means these discs will play via digital connection only, and only to a receiver/processor with a capable decoder. This DTS is not encoded the same way as it is on DVDs.

HDCD is fairly rare and is sort of an oddball, and also requires that the gear be capable of decoding it.

If you do a search on the web, there is a wealth of info on SACD (DSD) and DVD-A (MLP).

 

[dvda-sacd]

Hi,

DVD-Audio -> Linear PCM: 44.1 kHz, 48 kHz, 88.2 kHz, 96 kHz and 192 kHz (only stereo) / 16 bit, 20 bit and 24 bit

Super Audio CD -> DSD (Direct Stream Digital): 2,822.4 kHz / 1 bit

 

[captain_tinker]

Let's see if I've got this right...

Ok, so if I understand correctly, the DTS-cd is the "predecessor" to DVD-A? In other words, there will not be any more DTS-cd's most likely? That's too bad, they sound nice, but you can't fit much on them it seems, the data is just so large for such a small amount of music. That's ok. If DVD-A sounds as good as a DTS cd or better, I am sure to like it just fine. Speaking of DVD-A creation, I believe j_garcia said it could not be done legally. You may be right, but this is the link I found that shows how to create a DVD-A using files you already have, be they wav, flac, or whatever:

http://dvd-audio.sourceforge.net/

I doubt that it is anywhere near the high quality of a commercial DVD-A, (garbage in - garbage out) but I just wanted to mess with it to understand it better. In any case, it looks like the encoding is something called MLP? I will google that and see what I come up with. Also the SACD I didn't think that that would be possible to copy, or create, so no problems there, but I have seen DSD somewhere. I think I have seen it while browsing some of the SACD's for sale online. Again, that gives me something to google. I'll do some looking and if I have further questions, I'll post them again. Of course anyone else with anything further to share is more than welcome to share what they know. Thanks guys!

-capT

 

[j_garcia]

Higher resolution DVD-A does sound better than DTS in most case, IMO. Quite often you will find that discs that were previously DTS CDs are now on DVD-A and also include the DTS tracks.

Not sure what kind of music you are after, but check out the Porcupine Tree DVD-As Deadwing and In Absentia. Both are very well done.

 

[Hawkeye]

DTS-CDs essentially became DVD-A and there are basically no new DTS-CDs coming out these days (many are still in print, but no new ones are being done AFAIK).

Certainly very few DTS audio discs being released anymore, but they're not completely dead yet. For instance Alan Parsons *finally* released 'A Valid Path' in 5.1 surround a couple months ago, and unfortunately it was not in DVD-A or SACD format, but in DTS. That said, it is without a doubt one of the most stunning surround discs I own.

 

[captain_tinker]

DTS-CDs essentially became DVD-A and there are basically no new DTS-CDs coming out these days (many are still in print, but no new ones are being done AFAIK). These are specially encoded CDs that are able to pass the DTS bitstream, which means these discs will play via digital connection only, and only to a receiver/processor with a capable decoder. This DTS is not encoded the same way as it is on DVDs.

It sounds like you are partly correct. I just found www.dts.com. They have an FAQ section that is very interesting.

http://www.dts.com/entertainment/surround/

Here is a quote:

Will DTS-E continue to produce 5.1 Music Discs in addition to DVD-A titles?

Yes. The 5.1 Music Discs are very popular with consumers who simply prefer instant access to great-sounding 5.1 music tracks. In addition to great 5.1 tracks, the DVD-Audio titles also include “stereo” tracks for people who have not yet upgraded into 5.1 Digital Surround, plus video extras, such as menu screens, photo galleries and select music videos.


So, it looks like DTS discs and DVD-Audio are indeed related, but the dts music discs are not going to go away.

Man, the more I learn about this the more excited I am! Now, I just need to go out and buy the discs. Also, I need to get myself a Subwoofer and some surround speakers. Though that will probably have to wait until next year's tax return...

-capT

 

[billy p]

So,Captain Tinker if I read this correctly DTS CD'S can be played on dvd's without the analog 5.1 direct but via the coax or fibre optic connection like regular dvd movie. I'm listing keep digging!!

 

[dobyblue]

Yes DTS discs, whether DVD-Audio or CD music discs, can be played on all DVD-Video players with your fibre optic or digital coaxial cable.
DTS also created DTS 96/24 which provides you with lossless audio without having to buy DVD-Audio hardware.
Peter Gabriel's "Play" DVD is an excellent example of what can be done with DVD Video. All the videos on there have a DTS 96/24 track on them and Gabriel himself says that the DTS track will best represent the way they wanted the music to sound.
Daniel Lanois did all the 5.1 mixes and Gabriel in the liner notes said that he has become a big fan of surround music which lets you feel the music from the inside, instead of peering in at it from outside which is often the case with stereo.
(I'm paraphrasing)
However having said that i wouldn't trade in my SACD copies of "So" or "Us" even though they are only two channel - the sound is stunning.
I recently acquired Elton John's "Madman Across the Water" SACD and the multi-channel mix on it is wonderfully crisp and beautifully mixed.
DTS CDs can be played on any player that has a DTS symbol on it. Other than the low end HTiBs that should represent almost all DVD-Video players these days and certainly means any DVD-Audio player.
Look at it this way, if you're listening to a DTS CD through your digital out then you're using your receiver's DTS processor to do the work. If you choose to use the analogue cables then you're using your player's processor.
Decide which piece of equipment you think is better and let it do the work.
Sometimes with DTS the DTS track is actually better than the DVD-Audio track if it carries both on the same disc. Take the Crystal MEthod's "Legion of Boom" - it features 48/24 on the DVD-Audio 5.1 track, but has 48/24 6.1 DTS:ES discreet for the DVD-Video portion. The DTS:ES track is far better.
For DTS CD's I can highly recommend Sting's "Brand New Day" and "Ten Summoner's Tales" - the Police also have their Greatest Hits on DTS CD but the SACD release of that title is much better.
Other good hiRez discs
Death Cab for Cutie - Transatlanticism (stereo only)
Dire Straits - Brothers In Arms (either SACD or DualDisc, both are excellent. SACD probably easier to look after)
Nine Inch Nails - The Downward Spiral (SACD 5.1 - incredible use of 5.1 array)
REM - Out Of Time (DVD-Audio Stereo 192/24 and 5.1 96/24)

 

[billy p]

Thanks! Now could you help me getting the floors into the house w/o wife noticing? Just kidding I'll look for some to those dts products worth a try!

 

[Rock&Roll Ninja]

You forgot DTS24/96, which gives you all of the resolution of SACD/DVD-A, but doesn't require you to buy a special player that needs analog interconnects.

The premium interconnect cabal naturally didn't like this idea, so they used their one-world government powers to ensure only a handful of DTS24/96 products would ever hit the market.

"ia ia ia Kardas F'htagn!"

 

[MACCA350]

DTS 96/24 is still a lossy encoding system that comprises of the usual 'core' data(48kHz for backward compatibility) plus 'extension' data(extra 96kHz data). This is not the same as DVD-A which uses MLP Meridian Lossless Packing to compress the raw PCM audio without loosing any of the data so when it is decoded it is bit-for-bit identical to the studio master.

The new DTS-HD and Dolby TrueHD are lossless formats like DVD-A(MLP tracks) and SACD(DSD tracks)

cheers

 

[dobyblue]

When comparing DTS 96/24 and MLP it's worth looking at many of the MLP releases that are only using 24 bit 48 KHz for their 5.1 audio tracks. Even though DTS 96/24 comes through the extension for the additional resolution, it's filling in additional audio information, not making it up. This means that it's lossy 24 bit audio, but very indistinguishable losses going on. I'd like to see a demonstration though of a DTS 96/24 to see how close to the studio master it can be when un-encoded. I'd also like to see whether or not it always produces the exact same data when unencoded. For instance I can convert a DMB show from SHN to WAV and back all day and it will still be the exact same audio data.
You don't need MLP to not lose any of the data, FLAC and SHN compression schemes can compress to approximately 50% without losing any of the key audio data, much in the same way that DTS 96/24 works.

How Does 96/24 Work?

The DTS coding system has a “core + extension” structure. The “core” represents the DTS data as has been known since the first home decoders. The “extension” can carry data for future applications or enhancements of any sort. All DTS decoders recognize and use the core data. Basic decoders ignore the extension data, while advanced decoders can make use of it. This allows for full backward compatibility for any scheme using the extension. DTS has recently used the extension field for two purposes. In the first case, it has been used to carry an additional channel for 6.1 discrete. In the second case, the extension field carries the additional spectral data added by 96-kHz sampling. For a program in DTS 96/24, existing decoders read the core at 48-kHz and reproduce the standard spectrum. DTS 96/24 decoders read both core and extension and reproduce the extended spectrum. The data rate for 96/24 is 1.536Mbit/s, the higher of the two DTS rates presently used. While numerically this might suggest twice as much compression, there is in fact negligible additional compression on the core data. This is because there is relatively little information in the range 24-48kHz, so it can be coded very compactly. The 96/24 stream passes through the S/PDIF just as standard DTS does.

At the end of the day you have to trust your ears though. There are discs where I find the DVD-A 5.1 to be pretty much flawless and perfect to my ears, like the REM offerings, and there are others like Porcupine Tree's In Absentia and Crystal Method's Legion Of Boom where I will choose the DTS track everytime.
Here's an article from Gene DellaSalla that's pretty good reading.

[quote]Multi Channel Audio: DTS vs MLP???  

I was blown away by the separation of all the instruments from the front and surround speakers. Everything sounded so natural and unforced. The clarity of the cymbals and guitar reminded me of nothing that I heard in my CD collection. In fact, out of my entire DTS CD collection, I would venture to say that so far this is one of the best sounding discs I have heard.

After listening to my beloved song in its entirety, I reconfigured the disc to play the MLP 5.1 surround track. What I heard now was a slightly more open soundfield, and smoother pans and transitions between the front and rear channels. The Snare drum sounded more real, and natural, and the bass extension sounded slightly fuller. I realized however how difficult it is to compare DTS and MLP soundtracks, even on the same disc for a variety of reasons: 

Different levels for each recording. 
Performance Variances Between Digital to Analog Converters (DAC's). 
I suspect that only the most revealing audio systems and a keen pair of ears will actually hear any major audible differences in fidelity between the two soundtracks. Furthermore, the differences I heard were subtle at best. In addition, DTS has a principal advantage in that the bitstream can be passed directly to your Receiver / Preamp Processor where bass management and digital delay may be implemented and then processed. In high end systems where the DAC's in the Receiver / Preamp are superior to those of the DVD-A player, the slight audiophile advantage of the MLP Lossless Compression Scheme becomes nearly nullified. It will also be interesting to compare the new 96/24 DVD-A DTS Discs with a DTS 96/24 Decoder to see how much further the DTS format may evolve, and if it will converge in fidelity with MLP. I strongly believe that until DVD-A Players come with a digital output for MLP, and the Receiver / Preamp can decode the bitstream, MLP will never reach its full potential of promised 96KHz / 24 bit resolution multi channel surround. For more information about our concerns about the shortcomings of DVD-A, please review our article on DVD-A vs. SACD, and our second followup, DVD Audio & SACD - The Royal Scam Part II.

While listening to the disc in MLP, I noted that if I sat too closely to one particular rear speaker, the surround image went slightly askew when sound panned between that particular speaker and the others. I did not notice this problem when I listened to the DTS track decoded digitally via my external Preamp/Processor. This is primarily due to the lack of digital delay compensation for MLP since the signal cannot be processed digitally by the Preamp / Receiver. Thus, I cannot fault MLP technology for this, but its implementation. You can thank the Record Companies who don't want us normal folks to have a high resolution digital output because they feel we may exchange copied discs with each other and not buy them individually. The same fear is resulting in new CD's that are copy proof, and worse, not playable on some CD players.

Bass was almost overly abundant via the subwoofer when the disc was configured for the MLP soundtrack. One reason for this may be the lack of bass management for MLP and thus higher than normal frequencies pass through to the sub depending on how the recording was mixed. In most cases, simply turning the gain down on my sub resolved this problem. I did not have this problem whilst listening to the DTS version thanks again to the signal being processed digitally with bass management and time delay handled by my Preamp/Processor. Track #3 "Things She Said" is a very melodic track loaded with textures and progressive chords nicely captivated into multi channel surround. It really provides the enveloping effect that multi channel surround has been promising for years, but hasn't always hit the mark. This disc is one good example of hitting the mark right and every track delivers a pleasing, non overemphasized surround experience that takes you beyond conventional two channel stereo and gives you a sweet taste of the future. I like what I hear and I want to hear more of it. Much more.

The Winner Is...  

So you're probably wondering which multi channel format to choose when listening to a DVD Audio Disc and given the choice of more than one option. Though the question may be phrased easily, there is no simple answer. Because of the implementation shortcomings of MLP DVD-A, there may be cases where the DTS soundtrack will be the preferred choice. For example, if you have all small, or bass deficient speakers, and your DVD-A player and/or Receiver do not process bass management in the analog domain, than the DTS soundtrack may be the way to go to ensure that all the bass from the disc with be faithfully reproduced by your subwoofer and therefore avoid straining your speakers by alleviating them from the bass duties. Assuming bass management is not an issue for your system, you may still prefer the DTS mix over the MLP mix, or vice versa, just because of personal preferences or the quality of the mixing and transferring processes. My point is, you should listen to both soundtracks carefully and determine which one sounds best to you, and which one is most compatible with your system configuration and set-up. In my experience, both formats truly offer better than CD resolution, and the world of multi-channel audio keeps getting better. In addition, the nice thing about DVD-A discs that offer a DTS soundtrack is that they can be played on all existing DVD players that will also play DTS DVD movies. So if you have a DTS decoder on your Receiver or Preamp/Processor and a DVD player that can read the DTS soundtrack on a DVD, your good to go. You don't have to worry about buying any new hardware or multitude of cables to configure your system, just simply put in the disc, select DTS and press play and listen.

Now all I ask is to bring on the Titles...
[/quote]

I will not be purchasing any new equipment for at least a year so I can see where the new Blu Ray and HD-DVD players are heading. I hope one of the Blu Ray (that's the format I'm most looking forward to for a number of reasons, 1080p, PS3, The Matrix, Fifth Element) players will also support DVD-Audio, I'm sure it's not a stretch to imagine it will support SACD as it is Sony's technology, but I guess that depends on who's player you're buying. I imagine the Pioneer Blu Ray players will support SACD.
Certainly being able to match the studio master for movies is something that has a ways to go, according to Scott Esterson the Pro Audio Sales Manager for DTS most dialogue and sound effects from movies are recorded in 48/24, whereas music these days can be recorded at 384/32. Does that mean it will be sometime before we really appreciate the advatages of the 192/24 7.1 compatible Blu Ray format? I hope not.

 

[MR.MAGOO]

HDCD is fairly rare and is sort of an oddball, and also requires that the gear be capable of decoding it.

.

and I'm thinking HDCD was a method of placing more content on one disc, My Beach Boys "Pet Sounds" HDCD contains the mono and stereo versions plus a couple bonus tracks. Maybe the process deletes a few 'bits & bytes' to make it all fit on one disc.

 

[Verdinut]

Yes DTS discs, whether DVD-Audio or CD music discs, can be played on all DVD-Video players with your fibre optic or digital coaxial cable.
DTS also created DTS 96/24 which provides you with lossless audio without having to buy DVD-Audio hardware.
Peter Gabriel's "Play" DVD is an excellent example of what can be done with DVD Video. All the videos on there have a DTS 96/24 track on them and Gabriel himself says that the DTS track will best represent the way they wanted the music to sound.
Daniel Lanois did all the 5.1 mixes and Gabriel in the liner notes said that he has become a big fan of surround music which lets you feel the music from the inside, instead of peering in at it from outside which is often the case with stereo.
(I'm paraphrasing)
However having said that i wouldn't trade in my SACD copies of "So" or "Us" even though they are only two channel - the sound is stunning.
I recently acquired Elton John's "Madman Across the Water" SACD and the multi-channel mix on it is wonderfully crisp and beautifully mixed.
DTS CDs can be played on any player that has a DTS symbol on it. Other than the low end HTiBs that should represent almost all DVD-Video players these days and certainly means any DVD-Audio player.
Look at it this way, if you're listening to a DTS CD through your digital out then you're using your receiver's DTS processor to do the work. If you choose to use the analogue cables then you're using your player's processor.
Decide which piece of equipment you think is better and let it do the work.
Sometimes with DTS the DTS track is actually better than the DVD-Audio track if it carries both on the same disc. Take the Crystal MEthod's "Legion of Boom" - it features 48/24 on the DVD-Audio 5.1 track, but has 48/24 6.1 DTS:ES discreet for the DVD-Video portion. The DTS:ES track is far better.
For DTS CD's I can highly recommend Sting's "Brand New Day" and "Ten Summoner's Tales" - the Police also have their Greatest Hits on DTS CD but the SACD release of that title is much better.
Other good hiRez discs
Death Cab for Cutie - Transatlanticism (stereo only)
Dire Straits - Brothers In Arms (either SACD or DualDisc, both are excellent. SACD probably easier to look after)
Nine Inch Nails - The Downward Spiral (SACD 5.1 - incredible use of 5.1 array)
REM - Out Of Time (DVD-Audio Stereo 192/24 and 5.1 96/24)

No, a DVD-A disc won't play in a regular DVD player. It takes a universal DVD player which will also play the SACDs.
I know from experience with my own equipment.

 

[Bucknekked]

I was really interested in this thread until I saw the dates of the thread. 2006. that's 11 years ago.
Ha ! I should look before I get all jacked up.
I wondered why so many references to audio formats that are mature, not brand new.
I get it now. Anyway, it was a good refresher on formats.

 

[MR.MAGOO]

all jacked up you are. Those 'old, obsolete' formats helped bring us to where we are sonically TODAY.

 

[sterling shoote]

Yesterday, having heard Diana Krall's new album on Apple Music, I decided to get it. I could download a 24/192 file for $ 21.99. I could download a 24/96 file for $17.99. I could download an AAC file for $9.99, or I could buy the LP for $29.99 and get a download of some sort for no charge. Of course, realizing I could buy a CD for just $9.99, I bought it, perceiving I would get top quality and the lowest price, making CD the best value. Now, why bring this up on this thread? Seems to me, for the most part, the mediums out there today vs 2006 are as controversial as then, with folks claiming LP sounds better than CD and other nonsense. For me, I still think CD's rule except for multi-channel where SACD still appears to be the defacto leader.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Yesterday, having heard Diana Krall's new album on Apple Music, I decided to get it. I could download a 24/192 file for $ 21.99. I could download a 24/96 file for $17.99. I could download an AAC file for $9.99, or I could buy the LP for $29.99 and get a download of some sort for no charge. Of course, realizing I could buy a CD for just $9.99, I bought it, perceiving I would get top quality and the lowest price, making CD the best value. Now, why bring this up on this thread? Seems to me, for the most part, the mediums out there today vs 2006 are as controversial as then, with folks claiming LP sounds better than CD and other nonsense. For me, I still think CD's rule except for multi-channel where SACD still appears to be the defacto leader.

If we put aside surround SACD/DVD-A, for stereo music the difference with extra bits COULD be with wider dynamic range, but it's HUGELY depends on recording itself and it's mastering.
Just because something is on SACD, it doesn't make it automatically better.
https://rateyourmusic.com/board_message?message_id=3599139
http://dr.loudness-war.info/

If album you're listening is measured to have DR of 6 (like Green Day - American Idiot) it doesn't matter if it was recorded on metal wire or DVD-A. It will still sound like crap.

As for specific example @sterling shoote mentioned:
http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=&album=Turn+Up+the+Quiet
As you could see - no significant difference in DR between HDTracks and a CD.
Which very likely means HDTracks is just using upsampled version from a CD.

For background info:
http://wiki.hydrogenaud.io/index.php?title=Myths_(Vinyl)#Dynamic_range

 

[j_garcia]

No, a DVD-A disc won't play in a regular DVD player. It takes a universal DVD player which will also play the SACDs.
I know from experience with my own equipment.

DVD-A discs often have a DTS track included which should play on most DVD players. Not all of the early players did both DVD-A and SACD, though most today do since there are fewer true universal players.