Can we have a rational discussion about guns and why the typical arguments for gun control and its implementation won't work?

Mikado463

Mikado463

Audioholic Ninja
Well its time to blame baseball bats for murder and for the baseball bat for doing bodily harm. Feb 11, 2022 A Morristown Tn man is facing a charge of second-degree murder after telling investigators he beat a neighbor to death with a sledgehammer and a baseball bat during an altercation.

CHULA VISTA, Calif. Feb 22, 2022 A young man 18 years old was arrested early Tuesday morning on suspicion of beating his grandmother to death with a baseball bat, Chula Vista Police said.

And some many other baseball bat inflected crimes. https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=man+beat+another+man+to+death+with+a+baseball+bat

Its the bats fault.
so the defense will plead they went 'bat poop crazy' ? ! :eek:
 
Old Onkyo

Old Onkyo

Audioholic General
I don't weep for anyone who commits heinous acts, especially when they target particular groups. What happens in prison happens and the two local examples of that are Jeffrey Dahmer & Jesse Anderson. They were killed in the same incident and IMO, they deserved it since WI doesn't have capital punishment.

The "I'm a patriot, dammit!" mind is broken. Saying it doesn't make it true, acting it does.

I don't disagree with your comments about treatment of Blacks- again, people can definitely suck.
Wow! I don’t know whether cry or go to Milwaukee to see who was holding you hostage and impersonating you.

1. IMHO The State has a duty to protect incarcerated people. Most people have no idea of the crime that takes place behind bars. Not everyone behind bars is Dahmer.

2. I wholeheartedly agree. America historically has wrapped it’s hate in patriotism or religion.

3. what would it take for you to move from saying you don’t disagree, to you agree?
 
cpp

cpp

Audioholic Samurai
What gets me is how long these murderes are held in jail, waiting a court case that takes years to even go to trial. Case in point. FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla , Today news : The attorneys asked the jurors about their views of the death penalty and knowledge of the Feb. 14, 2018, shooting at Parkland's Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School that left 14 students and three staff members dead. Cruz, 23, pleaded guilty in October to 17 counts of first-degree murder, so the 12 jurors eventually selected will only decide whether he is sentenced to death or life in prison without parole. Eight alternates will also be picked. During juor questioning about their believes on hte death penalty. one juror was asked " ""

Secor, a death penalty specialist, asked the woman that if she were the ruler of an island, would it have a death penalty. She said it would not. Asked why, the woman paused for several seconds.

“I understand how some acts are just unexplainable,” she said. “But I am just human, right? And I do not have the power to understand what caused someone to commit an act. No one has that power except God. ... Nothing is going to bring the victims back.” Because of prosecutors' objections, her interview lasted almost 90 minutes. She passed the screening and was told to come back for a third and final round of questioning in a couple weeks. ""The prosecution or defense can ask Scherer to dismiss a juror for cause if they can convince her that the candidate can't be fair to their side". And there ya have it, our justice system at work. The guy admitted to the killings but !
 
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highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Slumlord
Wow! I don’t know whether cry or go to Milwaukee to see who was holding you hostage and impersonating you.

1. IMHO The State has a duty to protect incarcerated people. Most people have no idea of the crime that takes place behind bars. Not everyone behind bars is Dahmer.

2. I wholeheartedly agree. America historically has wrapped it’s hate in patriotism or religion.

3. what would it take for you to move from saying you don’t disagree, to you agree?
Care to explain your first comment?

The state does have a duty but the Dahmer/Anderson incident only took seconds- as soon as the guards left the room, the other inmate acted. I'm confident that it would have happened at some other time, even if that day hadn't provided the opportunity.

WRT your questions about how Whites are calmly walked out by the police, maybe it's because they give up without a fight- not all do, but fighting with the police is a good way to have a bad outcome. Accidental? I'm not sure that happens unless the person has some condition that's aggravated during an incident and the officers don't know about it. Kneeling on someone's neck when they're already being held by others isn't what I would call 'an accident'.

I don't fully agree with your view on who's on the end of a beating (or worse) during police stops and why- most end without violence but the ones that don't are the ones we hear about. Some cops lose control but most don't, even in Milwaukee where the police have a long history of violence.

As I have posted many times before, officers need to be checked for their mental health on a frequent, regular basis- at this point, they aren't. That needs to change.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Slumlord
What gets me is how long these murderes are held in jail, waiting a court case that takes years to even go to trial. Case in point. FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla , Today news : The attorneys asked the jurors about their views of the death penalty and knowledge of the Feb. 14, 2018, shooting at Parkland's Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School that left 14 students and three staff members dead. Cruz, 23, pleaded guilty in October to 17 counts of first-degree murder, so the 12 jurors eventually selected will only decide whether he is sentenced to death or life in prison without parole. Eight alternates will also be picked. During juor questioning about their believes on hte death penalty. one juror was asked " ""

Secor, a death penalty specialist, asked the woman that if she were the ruler of an island, would it have a death penalty. She said it would not. Asked why, the woman paused for several seconds.

“I understand how some acts are just unexplainable,” she said. “But I am just human, right? And I do not have the power to understand what caused someone to commit an act. No one has that power except God. ... Nothing is going to bring the victims back.” Because of prosecutors' objections, her interview lasted almost 90 minutes. She passed the screening and was told to come back for a third and final round of questioning in a couple weeks. ""The prosecution or defense can ask Scherer to dismiss a juror for cause if they can convince her that the candidate can't be fair to their side". And there ya have it, our justice system at work. The guy admitted to the killings but !
Attorneys ask for delays frequently, based on several reasons- posturing in high profile trials, new evidence, trying to put more time between the event and trial, to take advantage of potential jurors' loss of/clouding memory or being influenced by the news. Sometimes, it's because the other side has presented something that might make their own evidence invalid.

I'm not against the concept of a fair trial, but if someone confesses to a crime, do they need a lengthy trial? Maybe it should just be procedural.

The pinhead in Buffalo has plead not guilty- his attorney needs a brain transplant. The prosecution bears the burden of proof, but the guy's in surveillance videos doing it!
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Slumlord
While gun ownership may be a right, it isn't limitless, as there are regulations in effect now. So, what's a few more like the ones I listed.

Turds and morons are in every country. The difference is that in the US, turds and morons have greater access to firearms.
People in different places have different attitudes, though. The a$$hole in Buffalo is a great example of someone whose mind is completely broken and he had made comments about murder & suicide when he was in high school, but was still allowed to buy this gun- the link shows that the comments weren't specific enough. Great- let's find out who made that decision.


NYC has strict gun laws, NY State, not so much.

 
Mikado463

Mikado463

Audioholic Ninja
People in different places have different attitudes, though. The a$$hole in Buffalo is a great example of someone whose mind is completely broken and he had made comments about murder & suicide when he was in high school, but was still allowed to buy this gun- the link shows that the comments weren't specific enough. Great- let's find out who made that decision.


NYC has strict gun laws, NY State, not so much.

all good points to which I agree, he should never have been allowed. One of the problems with so many laws, restrictions, etc on firearms is they can ultimately 'trip over' each other to the point that oversights are more easily allowed , happen, whatever. In this case 10 innocent people became added to never ending list of senseless acts of violence.

I know this 'kid' is legally an adult but I can't help but faulting his parents as well for allowing this under 'their roof'
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
People in different places have different attitudes, though. The a$$hole in Buffalo is a great example of someone whose mind is completely broken and he had made comments about murder & suicide when he was in high school, but was still allowed to buy this gun- the link shows that the comments weren't specific enough. Great- let's find out who made that decision.


NYC has strict gun laws, NY State, not so much.

I'd bet you could find people like him in every state.
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
all good points to which I agree, he should never have been allowed. One of the problems with so many laws, restrictions, etc on firearms is they can ultimately 'trip over' each other to the point that oversights are more easily allowed , happen, whatever. In this case 10 innocent people became added to never ending list of senseless acts of violence.

I know this 'kid' is legally an adult but I can't help but faulting his parents as well for allowing this under 'their roof'
With so many different laws in different jurisdictions perhaps contributing to the problem, how about (as I suggested earlier) all-encompassing federal laws? Or would that be stepping on sTaTeS RiGhTs.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Slumlord
I'd bet you could find people like him in every state.
I wrote "places" and specifically mentioned countries, not states. We don't see this level of stupid in all countries and personally, I would like the US to end it. It's the people who are at fault or, conversely, who should receive credit for NOT going off the deep end.

Nobody should make excuses for someone who does this.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Slumlord
With so many different laws in different jurisdictions perhaps contributing to the problem, how about (as I suggested earlier) all-encompassing federal laws? Or would that be stepping on sTaTeS RiGhTs.
It would step on states' rights and while they should be preserved, national safety should be seen as 'somewhat important' by state legislators, at some point.
 
Mikado463

Mikado463

Audioholic Ninja
With so many different laws in different jurisdictions perhaps contributing to the problem, how about (as I suggested earlier) all-encompassing federal laws? Or would that be stepping on sTaTeS RiGhTs.
again, point taken and God knows there are plenty of conflicting gun rights, carry privileges, etc between states. But can the Federal Gov't be anymore trusted to put together a common sense document that all states could/would abide by ? Kinda makes me think of Roe v Wade ........
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
I wrote "places" and specifically mentioned countries, not states. We don't see this level of stupid in all countries and personally, I would like the US to end it. It's the people who are at fault or, conversely, who should receive credit for NOT going off the deep end.

Nobody should make excuses for someone who does this.
OK...every state, every country. Except, in most other countries, people like that have much more difficulty accessing firearms. We can preach to people to treat each other as they would like to be treated as much as we want, but a$$holes are gonna a$$hole. It's like preaching abstinence to teenagers. ;)

All already posted data indicating that the US is not a major outlier when it comes to mental illness.

While the problem isn't as bad in Canada, we certainly aren't fault-free when it comes to people falling through the cracks.
Former soldier with PTSD who killed himself and his family were victims of 'systemic failures': witness | CBC News
Desmond inquiry looks at how Afghanistan veteran legally obtained firearm - Halifax | Globalnews.ca
Official says she would have denied Desmond a gun licence had she known more - Halifax | Globalnews.ca

This guy developed PTSD from his service in Afghanistan. After threatening to commit suicide, his rifles were confiscated and licence suspended. The licence was later reinstated. He went on to purchase another rifle and on the same day, killed his wife, daughter, mother and himself.

I don't think I can say any more on this. The horse has been beaten to a pulp.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Slumlord
OK...every state, every country. Except, in most other countries, people like that have much more difficulty accessing firearms. We can preach to people to treat each other as they would like to be treated as much as we want, but a$$holes are gonna a$$hole. It's like preaching abstinence to teenagers. ;)

All already posted data indicating that the US is not a major outlier when it comes to mental illness.

While the problem isn't as bad in Canada, we certainly aren't fault-free when it comes to people falling through the cracks.
Former soldier with PTSD who killed himself and his family were victims of 'systemic failures': witness | CBC News
Desmond inquiry looks at how Afghanistan veteran legally obtained firearm - Halifax | Globalnews.ca
Official says she would have denied Desmond a gun licence had she known more - Halifax | Globalnews.ca

This guy developed PTSD from his service in Afghanistan. After threatening to commit suicide, his rifles were confiscated and licence suspended. The licence was later reinstated. He went on to purchase another rifle and on the same day, killed his wife, daughter, mother and himself.

I don't think I can say any more on this. The horse has been beaten to a pulp.
If someone is motivated, they'll get whatever they need. Obviously, with so many stolen guns, the saying "You can't swing a dead cat without tripping over a gun" comes to mind.

I think people should have the right to own guns, but being obsessed would seem to be a sign of mental illness. I absolutely think that if someone uses a gun illegally, they need to spend time in prison and never possess a gun again but that's hard to enforce because A) they'll probably try to get a gun through any means available, including lying and B) someone is always willing to sell a gun illegally. Telling everyone in the US that they're required to turn in all guns will never work- people will hide some of them until they're safe to retrieve and also, independent gunsmiths and other machinists can make parts in order to make guns. Hell- kids in high schools used to make 'Zip guns' in metal shop class from a piece of pipe, a nail, a rubber band and a couple of other small pieces.

People don't want to do as they're told- that's the bottom line.
 
Old Onkyo

Old Onkyo

Audioholic General
Care to explain your first comment?

The state does have a duty but the Dahmer/Anderson incident only took seconds- as soon as the guards left the room, the other inmate acted. I'm confident that it would have happened at some other time, even if that day hadn't provided the opportunity.

WRT your questions about how Whites are calmly walked out by the police, maybe it's because they give up without a fight- not all do, but fighting with the police is a good way to have a bad outcome. Accidental? I'm not sure that happens unless the person has some condition that's aggravated during an incident and the officers don't know about it. Kneeling on someone's neck when they're already being held by others isn't what I would call 'an accident'.

I don't fully agree with your view on who's on the end of a beating (or worse) during police stops and why- most end without violence but the ones that don't are the ones we hear about. Some cops lose control but most don't, even in Milwaukee where the police have a long history of violence.

As I have posted many times before, officers need to be checked for their mental health on a frequent, regular basis- at this point, they aren't. That needs to change.
Care to explain your first comment?
That was a backhanded compliment, feeble attempt at humor.

While I admire your debate skills, I have often thought you were being disingenuous due to your allegiance to an ideology over easily verifiable facts to the contrary. In light of your comments, I saw something….maybe he is not as bad as I think
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Slumlord
That was a backhanded compliment, feeble attempt at humor.

While I admire your debate skills, I have often thought you were being disingenuous due to your allegiance to an ideology over easily verifiable facts to the contrary. In light of your comments, I saw something….maybe he is not as bad as I think
As I have posted- I don't dislike anyone just because they're part of a group, other than criminals and politicians, but now I'm just repeating myself. That's about as far as I go in disliking anyone. I probably dislike more Whites than any other group and have been screwed by people I thought I knew, but it obviously falls into the Animal House line- "You f%cked up- you trusted us!".

Oh, no! You didn't see a glimmer of hope, did you? :)
 
Old Onkyo

Old Onkyo

Audioholic General
Oh, no! You didn't see a glimmer of hope, did you? :)
Right…
The markets are up, went to the doctor’s yesterday, the wife is four years cancer free, and my stereo sounds exceptional today, now you! I think I will buy a lotto ticket!
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Slumlord
Right…
The markets are up, went to the doctor’s yesterday, the wife is four years cancer free, and my stereo sounds exceptional today, now you! I think I will buy a lotto ticket!
Great to see the news about your wife!
 
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