Can somebody explain this SA-CD bass management problem to me?

[funk-o-meter]

I've read a bit about bass manement but haven't found the answer to my problem.

Denon 1602 receiver
Samsung Universal player
I GOT NO SUB

The Samsung has speaker management, but won't allow me to turn the sub off. So I can't use the 5.1 external In's on my Denon (to bypass any DSP processing) because the Samsung sends all the low end out the sub channel assuming I have a sub. Which I don't. So every thing sounds thin.

So, I'm thinking I have a few choices:

1.Buy a sub. O.K. great, but what do I do until then?

2. Use the "mixed stereo outs" on my Samsung player to the external 5.1 inputs on my Denon (FL and FR). This means I can't ever listen to the 5.1 SA-CD mixes. But I assume this will fix my bass problems.

3. Use the DVD inputs on my Denon instead of the external 5.1 inputs. But wouldn't everything going into this input go throught some AD/DA converters and DSP processing and thus negate the idea of the higher resolution of the SA-CD's? I'm certian that it would because I would then be using the surround decoder in the Denon for the 5.1 mixes and it's converters are only rated to 24/96. What if I just used the regular stereo mode?

4. How about this crazy Idea: Use the "mixed outputs" on the player to feed the FL and FR channels of the "external 5.1 inputs" on the Denon and then feed the center, surround, and sub (pointless) inputs like ususal? Would I then get full range sound out of my fronts? I'm assuming this would totally @%$& the imaging of the surround mixes.

This whole thing is a complete pain in the #$%! Why won't my player's speaker management let me turn of the sub? It lets me turn off the center and rears! Should I send the thing back?

 

[BobbyT]

You could also get a different universal player that allows you to turn the sub off.

 

[MDS]

The bass management on sacd/dvd-a player is not really related to whether or not you have a subwoofer. You will be using 5.1 analog cables, so the bass management in the player (whether fixed at a given frequency or you can adjust it) just determines what range of frequencies get sent over the cable that is connected to the 'subwoofer' input on the external 5.1 input or dvd input of the receiver. Whether that signal gets routed to a subwoofer or not is a function of the receiver.

2. Use the "mixed stereo outs" on my Samsung player to the external 5.1 inputs on my Denon (FL and FR). This means I can't ever listen to the 5.1 SA-CD mixes. But I assume this will fix my bass problems.

If 'mixed stereo out' does what its name implies, it will downmix the 5.1 channels to 2 channels. So yeah, it would mix any bass from the .1 channel into the 2 channel mix, but now you only have 2 channels at the receiver and would have to use a matrix mode like PLII to turn it back into 5.1.

3. Use the DVD inputs on my Denon instead of the external 5.1 inputs. But wouldn't everything going into this input go throught some AD/DA converters and DSP processing and thus negate the idea of the higher resolution of the SA-CD's? I'm certian that it would because I would then be using the surround decoder in the Denon for the 5.1 mixes and it's converters are only rated to 24/96. What if I just used the regular stereo mode?

The difference would be that you have to select 'dvd' instead of 'external in' to hear the sound from the player. Remember, when you are using the analog inputs, the player is doing the decoding, NOT the receiver. Besides if playing SACD, you have no choice but to use the 5.1 analog connections.

If you just use stereo mode, the receiver will only use the signal from the L and R channels - effectively ignoring the center, surrounds, and sub. If you are going to use stereo, then let the Samsung do the mixed stereo output so at least the 2 channels the receiver see were created by downmixing the original 5.1 channels from the disc.

4. How about this crazy Idea: Use the "mixed outputs" on the player to feed the FL and FR channels of the "external 5.1 inputs" on the Denon and then feed the center, surround, and sub (pointless) inputs like ususal? Would I then get full range sound out of my fronts? I'm assuming this would totally @%$& the imaging of the surround mixes.

If you do that, you will have to select the external input on the receiver and will get the stereo downmix there. There will be no output on the other channels, so even you switch to the dvd input, you would hear nothing.

I don't know about that particular denon, but some receivers offer no bass managment on the 5.1 inputs (My Onkyo doesn't), which means you would lose the bass info the Samsung is sending to the subwoofer input and that sounds like the issue you are having.

So I would use the dvd inputs. Set the front speakers to Large (all others to Small) and subwoofer=no. The signal from the subwoofer output of the Samsung will get routed to the Large speakers if subwoofer=no. Frequencies below the xover you set in the receiver that are destined for any of the small channels will also get routed to the Large speakers.

 

[funk-o-meter]

I don't know about that particular denon, but some receivers offer no bass managment on the 5.1 inputs (My Onkyo doesn't), which means you would lose the bass info the Samsung is sending to the subwoofer input and that sounds like the issue you are having..

Exactly, and the poor bass management in the player means that I can't turn the Sub "off" and thus re-route the low end information to the front speakers. I had no way of knowing this befor buying the player. It has speaker management (as advertised) but no actual sub management. It simply has an icon of the sub and says "on" but for some reason, it doesn't allow me to turn it off, or change the x-over frequency. I got hornswaggled and banboozled there.

So I would use the dvd inputs. Set the front speakers to Large (all others to Small) and subwoofer=no. The signal from the subwoofer output of the Samsung will get routed to the Large speakers if subwoofer=no. Frequencies below the xover you set in the receiver that are destined for any of the small channels will also get routed to the Large speakers.

Looks like I'm stuck using the external 5.1 inputs and feeding them with the crazy hybrid method I described: Using the "mixed outs" from the player into the FR and FL inputs on the external 5.1 in's and the center and surround outs from the player into the Center and Surround inputs on the receiver. This means I've manipulated the imaging in the front as I've got information meant for the center channel feeding into the FL and FR because I'm using the "mixed" outputs and they probably contain information from the center channel. Very confusing. If I used the DVD inputs like you suggest, I'd then be running the high resolution SA-CD/DVD-A info through a lower resolution processor (24/96) and thus defeating the purpose. Right? Or would I only be using the processor If i turned a surround mode on? It would solve my bass management problem however, as then I'd be using the bass management in the receiver. And thus could turn the sub off.

Another crazy idea that just might work: Use a series of cheesy adapters to blend the information from the sub out RCA jack of the player back into FL and FR out jacks that are destined for the FL and FR inputs of the external 5.1 in's on the receiver. It wouldn't effect the imaging of the low frequency information as it was intended to be from a single source anyway (a sub) and might not cause phasing problems because the speaker management of the player has rolled off the sub and front speakers at the same frequency. I'm sure its not sophisticated enough to have the two overlap at all. If anything, there might be a little dip as is usually the case in crossover design. It should just "merge" the information. This idea is intriguing. I might have to try it.

Anybody know of any theoretical problems with this?

 

[jaxvon]

If you're willing to lay out some cash, then this IS a solution:

Outlaw ICBM.

No, not an Intercontinental Ballistic Missile...it's analog bass management!

Edit: Here's the description from Outlaw:

Why the ICBM?

Most of today's DVD-Audio players, and some of today's multi-channel SACD players, do not have bass management when you're playing DVD-Audio or SACD discs. (The players themselves may contain bass management menus, but this built in circuitry is probably effective only when you're listening to Dolby Digital and DTS soundtracks.)

As a result, when you're listening to DVD-Audio or SACD discs, all of the speakers get a full-range signal, (with deep bass being sent to all speakers), and the separate ".1" bass track goes only to the subwoofer. Thus, the main speakers in the system may get more bass than they can handle. And in systems without a subwoofer, most of the bass will be thrown away, because it cannot be routed to the other speakers.

The ICBM can fix these problems entirely. Connect it between your DVD-Audio or SACD player and your receiver or preamp/processor, and the ICBM will put all the bass in the right place. If you have small satellite speakers and a subwoofer, it will keep the bass out of the small speakers and send it all to the subwoofer. If you have large tower speakers and no subwoofer, the ICBM will route the ".1" bass from the subwoofer track over to the tower speakers.

Even if your DVD-Audio or SACD player does have bass management, it will be much less versatile than the ICBM's circuitry, and thus won't let you fine-tune your system, as the ICBM will.

The ICBM works not only with 5.1-channel systems, but also with 6.1-channel systems like Lucasfilm THX Surround EX and DTS ES-Matrix and ES-Discrete. We have included an extra channel of bass management to accommodate these systems. That extra channel also lets the ICBM work with the 6.0 channel systems now being championed by Chesky Records. These systems repurpose two of the channels in DVD-Audio or multi-channel SACD, using the center channel as a left front/side "height" channel, and the LFE channel as a right front/side "height" channel.
The ICBM-1 Features and Functions:

The ICBM-1 is a precision, audiophile grade bass management device developed primarily for use with multi-channel DVD-Audio and SACD players. In order to preserve the quality of the analog signal, the ICBM employs state of the art, low-noise, dual op-amps, metal-film resistors and film capacitors. To enable you to precisely match the crossover points of your specific speaker complement, the ICBM allows you separate crossover points for the front left/right, center, and right surround, left surround and subwoofer channels. These crossover choices are 40 Hz, 60 Hz, 80 Hz, 100 Hz and 120 Hz.

In addition to performing this mandatory function for DVD-Audio or SACD, the ICBM may also substitute for a pre-amp's own bass management circuitry. Bass management is the process of redirecting bass signals to the appropriate place in your system. Whether you have small satellite, bookshelf, or tower speakers your system is not running to its full potential without proper bass management. Small bookshelves and satellite speakers are not designed to play back low bass signals. Redirection of this low frequency energy to a dedicated subwoofer will not only prevent your speakers from being damaged but also allows the signal to be reproduced. Many bookshelf speakers begin to stop producing output between 60 and 100 Hz. Without bass management, signals below these frequencies are lost.

Many enthusiasts with tower speakers run them full bandwidth. While this is certainly safe in most cases, it is not ideal. Most tower speakers are incapable of reproducing a flat frequency response down to 20 cycles, and often times begin to roll off around 40 Hz. In addition to the loss of low bass information, your speakers (and amplifier) are being asked to run at full steam. Freeing up your speakers from these lowest bass signals enables them to reproduce higher frequencies with greater accuracy, and depth, improving overall sound quality and user enjoyment.

The ICBM-1 sets a new standard for bass management flexibility far exceeding the capabilities of today's most advanced pre-amp processors. The ICBM-1 offers separate, user selectable crossover points, sub level control, independent LFE trim control, adjustable slope control, and bass recombine all while remaining acoustically transparent. If that weren't enough, the ICBM is the only bass management device we are aware of that may optionally be configured to drive stereo subwoofers with "hard left" and "hard right" derived bass signals. This is accomplished by summing the bass from the left, left surround and half of the center channel bass signals for the left subwoofer, and the right, right surround and the other half of the center channel bass signals for the right subwoofer.

 

[MDS]

The ICBM is a good suggestion, you might want to just get one of those.

But...You are concerned that you cannot turn the subwoofer OFF in the samsung, but that is because you are associating that setting with whether or not your system has an actual subwoofer. It is not related because you don't connect speakers directly to the player. Whether the signal gets routed to a subwoofer or not is a function of the receiver, not the player. All it means is that any info in the .1 channel will get sent over the cable you have connected to the subwoofer out on the player (if you could turn it off, it would simply drop that channel entirely). The other end of that cable is connected to the subwoofer in of the 5.1 analog inputs - the receiver will route it to the subwoofer pre-out which has no subwoofer attached. Thus, no .1 channel bass! Additionally, because the player doesn't do any bass management and nor does the receiver when you use the 5.1 analog inputs, all the other channels will get a full range signal.

 

[funk-o-meter]

Thanks, but that wan't my point. The problem is when I'm listenting to a surround SA-CD mix, I have to use the 5.1 external in's on my receiver. Thats the only way to get the full bandwith of the SA-CD right? The player has some speaker mangement, but not much. And none when it comes to the sub. Its just on. And while useing the 5.1 external imputs on my receiver, it doen't have any bass management at all. So I am at the mercy of the speaker/bass management of my player. Which sucks. It won't let me turn the sub off. And thus I cannot get fullrange signal to my front's. All the low frequency info that was intended for the sub is lost because I don't have a sub. And I can't use either the player or the receiver to turn it "off" and thus send that low frequency info to the fronts. So everything is too thin. No thump. I can use the mixed outs and listen in stereo, but I If I listen to a 5.1 mix, all the .1 info is sent to a sub that is not there and all my gear is ignorant of that. So I loose all the .1 info. If I had bass management on either peice of gear, I could turn it off and all the .1 info would be routed to my fronts.

See? Sucks.

 

[MDS]

Yes, I see. What I was thinking was that you were hung up on the fact that the player won't allow you to turn the sub to off and it did it would solve the problem.

You said the player does have 'speaker management". What exactly does it provide? It sure doesn't sound like it has bass management at all, let alone an inflexible system with a fixed xover. If that is the case, then I guess icbm or a different player is the only solution.

 

[bruceh]

Bass management

I would definitely recommend the Outlaw ICBM. It will clean up the sound of your player by giving you control over the specific channel crossover frequencies. I don't know how it would handle the subwoofer "on' issue, but you might give them a call and get their input. The ICBM really cleaned up the sound on my Pioneer player!