Cable Comparison - Ideal Insertion Point

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Escott1377

Enthusiast
I have been purchasing Zu Audio cables from Ebay for the past couple of weeks as they sell off their older, extinct inventory minimal investment, mostly done for curiosity's sake.

I currently have BJC interconnects and speaker cables.

If I were to try and do a comparison between the 2, is there an ideal location w/in the signal chain to do so?

I have both an analog and digital side:

Soundsmith Voice > VPI Classic > Manley Chinook > amplification

Logitech Squeezebox > Cary 100t > amplification

I am admittedly being lazy, but I have heard that the phono > phono pre is the most sensitive and will yield the most telling results.

Please let me know your thoughts.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I have been purchasing Zu Audio cables from Ebay for the past couple of weeks as they sell off their older, extinct inventory minimal investment, mostly done for curiosity's sake.

I currently have BJC interconnects and speaker cables.

If I were to try and do a comparison between the 2, is there an ideal location w/in the signal chain to do so?

I have both an analog and digital side:

Soundsmith Voice > VPI Classic > Manley Chinook > amplification

Logitech Squeezebox > Cary 100t > amplification

I am admittedly being lazy, but I have heard that the phono > phono pre is the most sensitive and will yield the most telling results.

Please let me know your thoughts.
Why did you waste money on new cables when you have excellent high quality cables already?

As far as digital cables are concerned, they either work or they don't. There is no possible engineering way a cable can make a difference unless there is an obvious fault.

That pretty much goes for analog also.

The next issue, is you don't want to fiddle around with cables more than you have to. HDMI ports are easily damaged plugging cables in an out and that is super expensive damage.

Analog sockets are now always mounted to the circuit boards and it is far from unknown to crack circuit boards changing cables. Change cables only when necessary, and you do not have a necessary reason.

The is an adjunct to sods law: - The unnecessary procedure will be the one that causes a problem.
 
E

Escott1377

Enthusiast
Why did you waste money on new cables when you have excellent high quality cables already?

As far as digital cables are concerned, they either work or they don't. There is no possible engineering way a cable can make a difference unless there is an obvious fault.

That pretty much goes for analog also.

The next issue, is you don't want to fiddle around with cables more than you have to. HDMI ports are easily damaged plugging cables in an out and that is super expensive damage.

Analog sockets are now always mounted to the circuit boards and it is far from unknown to crack circuit boards changing cables. Change cables only when necessary, and you do not have a necessary reason.

The is an adjunct to sods law: - The unnecessary procedure will be the one that causes a problem.
I'm buying RCA pairs for $30 a pop and have multiple systems in the house. Too good of a deal to pass up.

There is not a digital cable in question, I think I was not clear enough with that. Both signals go to a Manley shrimp and are then bi amped for my speakers - solid state on the bass and tube for the highs / mids.

No HDMI connection exists and I have a good relationship with my vendor and manufacturers if any damage were to be done @ the insertion point (ie your socket reference). I have also changed cables in and out of this system for years w/o any damage to the gear so far.

Still my question exists, since I want to personally debunk the cable discussion, where w/in the options I described would the discrepancy (or lack thereof) show itself the most? What is the most sensitive point between the components I listed.

Thanks -
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Since it is already well and truly "debunked" it won't matter a lick of spit where you insert the cables.

The fact is wire is wire. The only thing that really counts is build quality making a robust cable.

I can tell the build quality of BJ cables is of a high order.

I can tell you that what I have found helping friends is that dealers over sell customers cables. Other than very cheap cables, I have never encountered more failures that in expensive cables, and have had to reterminate some. I think the numbers produced from each of the audiophool manufacturers is too low to make a decent consistent product.

Talking of Zu, I heard one of their speakers in house not long ago. A terrible contraption with a large paper cone, driven hard into the break up range, and a tweeter below. It was one of the worst speakers I have ever had the displeasure of hearing.

So I would expect nothing good from Zu.
 
E

Escott1377

Enthusiast
I think we are simply going to have to agree to disagree.

For 1, you are comparing a company's speaker build with the quality of their interconnect cables - essentially apples to oranges.

I do think that since the signal from the stylus is so minimal that the signal from the turntable will be the best position in the signal change for me to try the cable swap.

Understanding that there are plenty of articles that I have read and digested regarding noticeable / unnoticeable differences with cables, I would still like to prove the con census myself.

So, no results will be posted since Zu requires the magical 400 hour break in, more so for my benefit so I am unable to shoot down my friends that continue to spend thousands on wire.

Thanks -
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I think we are simply going to have to agree to disagree.

For 1, you are comparing a company's speaker build with the quality of their interconnect cables - essentially apples to oranges.

I do think that since the signal from the stylus is so minimal that the signal from the turntable will be the best position in the signal change for me to try the cable swap.

Understanding that there are plenty of articles that I have read and digested regarding noticeable / unnoticeable differences with cables, I would still like to prove the con census myself.

So, no results will be posted since Zu requires the magical 400 hour break in, more so for my benefit so I am unable to shoot down my friends that continue to spend thousands on wire.

Thanks -
You seem to be in serious danger of falling into the audiophool cesspool in which your friends are already swimming.

I just mentioned the speaker issue, as it pertains to integrity of Zu. How any ethical manufacturer could produce a design like those speakers is beyond me.

Any manufacturer who maintains cables need a 400 hour break in is either run by con men or individuals in dire need of being assessed for schizophrenia.

All this is actually a pity as there are real issues that remain to be solved. People get conned by pseudoscience in this avocation all the time.

The scams abound, special power cables, special A/C receptacles massive CD players that actually have stock transports, and all the burnished heavy steel and aluminum, makes not one wit of difference. It is just endless.

The problem is this diverts funds away form ethical manufacturers, engineers and designers, solving real problems for the benefit if the consumer.

All this conning with garbage science, which includes phenomena unknown to those of us schooled in science and even the best theoretical nuclear physicist.

That is the long version of saying that numerous scoundrels like those in charge of Zu, invent all this nonsense from the backs of their necks.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
I understand your need to try it yourself, but you can rest assured many of us have gone through something similar already and have tested and verified for ourselves that the debunking is correct.
 
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E

Escott1377

Enthusiast
Now we are closer to agreement. I understand signal theory, electromagnetics, and physics as a degreed electrical engineer - albeit from Clemson.

I hardly think that my small investment (less than $100) is going to prompt me to spend more $$ on exotic cables. Like you said, BJC's are good cables and so far have the lowest capacitance value that I have seen advertised. These are all very short cable runs as well - my longest is 5 ft.

I can tell you for a fact that the best $$ I can spend right now is treating my room since it is a loft with an entire side open to face the downstairs.

Unfortunately my wife has closed the wallet on this hobby for right now after the addition of a pair of tube mono blocs.

Thanks -
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
The place that will show off the most "differences" will be between the phono cartridge and the phono preamp. Of course, if the cable is defective or the manufacturer intentionally modifies it's LCR parameters, then this may show a difference. That does not necessarily mean better, just different.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Now we are closer to agreement. I understand signal theory, electromagnetics, and physics as a degreed electrical engineer - albeit from Clemson.


I have known two "degreed electrical engineers" who thought there were audible differences between analog cables. Backed up their beliefs with their wallets too. One even has an MSEE from CMU, proving that a high-end formal education is helpful but insufficient for critical technical thinking.

What in your knowledge of signal theory,
electromagnetics, or physics would lead you to believe that different twisted pairs of insulated copper wires would sound different?
 
E

Escott1377

Enthusiast
Seems like this thread has gone from a general question to an offensive tone. Everyone take a step back and read the original question. I did not ask for anyone's opinion on whether my inquiry agreed w/ you, agreed w/ any past experiences you may have had or not had, none of this. Considering I am new to this forum, the overall response has been unwelcoming and flat out lame. 1 person confirmed my original question, that being if I were to prove to myself that there is no difference in sound between cables, where along my signal chain would it make the most sense to try and observe this. The reason it will be from the turntable to the phono pre is b/c the strength of the line level signal coming from the turntable is so minimal and requires such a large amount of amplification. Regardless of my education level (if you ever watch your You Tube videos, your members use their electrical / mechanical engineering degrees to qualify their statements), I still should be able to ask a question and expect a fair response. Maybe it's my southern heritage, but a little bit of common courtesy will get you a long way in life. Again, before attacking someone's question, read the question and tailor your response to what was actually asked of the group.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Seems like this thread has gone from a general question to an offensive tone. Everyone take a step back and read the original question. I did not ask for anyone's opinion on whether my inquiry agreed w/ you, agreed w/ any past experiences you may have had or not had, none of this. Considering I am new to this forum, the overall response has been unwelcoming and flat out lame. 1 person confirmed my original question, that being if I were to prove to myself that there is no difference in sound between cables, where along my signal chain would it make the most sense to try and observe this. The reason it will be from the turntable to the phono pre is b/c the strength of the line level signal coming from the turntable is so minimal and requires such a large amount of amplification. Regardless of my education level (if you ever watch your You Tube videos, your members use their electrical / mechanical engineering degrees to qualify their statements), I still should be able to ask a question and expect a fair response. Maybe it's my southern heritage, but a little bit of common courtesy will get you a long way in life. Again, before attacking someone's question, read the question and tailor your response to what was actually asked of the group.
Baloney. You asked a leading question in your original post that implied you were a non-technical person who was exploring. You're the sort who invests in tube monoblocks, which I admit raised an eyebrow. Several people responded, all saying the same thing, that audible differences in wires are almost certainly non-existent, but you press on anyway, finally revealing that you are actually educated and claim to understand some basic concepts. That makes grumpy old me think you're just playing us, so you get a skeptical response. Rather than answer my question we get a lecture on manners (which I could probably use, but that's beside the point) because we're not responding appropriately to someone sounding like a troll.

So where are you going with this?
 
E

Escott1377

Enthusiast
Certainly not a troll, nor did I come here to pick a fight, nor will I back down when again a response does nothing in regards to adding to the original question or my hope of a discussion.

"If I were to try and do a comparison between the 2, is there an ideal location w/in the signal chain to do so?"

Again, take a moment to reread my original post and this is the only question that was posed. That's it, no expectation nor request of opinion, simply asking for this group to confirm pretty much what I was already thinking.

The implication that I am trying to bait anyone hints at a bit of a conspiracy theory or insecurity on your part.

Regardless of any other additional equipment I may own or use in my 2 channel set-up, that was not part of the topic and shows a lack of ability to identify the subject matter.

But again, I am being pushed off topic. It was a simple question, if you don't have any information to ADD to the inquiry, then just stay quiet.

My answer was confirmed by 1 participant, now you guys are just being bullies sitting behind your keyboards.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Certainly not a troll, nor did I come here to pick a fight, nor will I back down when again a response does nothing in regards to adding to the original question or my hope of a discussion.

"If I were to try and do a comparison between the 2, is there an ideal location w/in the signal chain to do so?"

Again, take a moment to reread my original post and this is the only question that was posed. That's it, no expectation nor request of opinion, simply asking for this group to confirm pretty much what I was already thinking.

The implication that I am trying to bait anyone hints at a bit of a conspiracy theory or insecurity on your part.

Regardless of any other additional equipment I may own or use in my 2 channel set-up, that was not part of the topic and shows a lack of ability to identify the subject matter.

But again, I am being pushed off topic. It was a simple question, if you don't have any information to ADD to the inquiry, then just stay quiet.

My answer was confirmed by 1 participant, now you guys are just being bullies sitting behind your keyboards.
Your original question though is not answerable, because it is nonsense. There is no reasonable answer to a question like that.

The phono issue is largely a red herring.

The fact is different cartridges have different capacitance loading requirements, which are important. However the answer is not trying a bunch of cables, hit and miss, to see which sounds best with X cartridge.

The answer is the application of good engineering.

This is the solution and what I do: -

Know the correct loading of the cartridge. Good manufacturers specify the correct loading capacitance.

Now good manufacturers also specify the loading capacitance of the phono input.

Now I choose well made cables of low capacitance.

So you start with the correct loading capacitance of the cartridge, then add the capacitance of the cable and phono input. Then subtract the sum of those two numbers from the optimal capacitance loading of the cartridge. Then you add that capacitance.

This is a very important part of setting up a turntable, but just about never done properly, end especially not by the lunatic high end.

The older SME arms had a place where you could solder on caps, under the screening can where the cable connector went.

When I set up a turntable, I make a short lead with female RCA one end and male the other, and solder the correct cap into the male RCA plug. So I get it right first time.

Peter Walker had the easiest solution to this in his Quad 44 pre amp. It has dip switches on the top of the unit to select the correct input capacitance to load the cartridge correctly.

If you go on the Needle Doctor site you will see a huge selection of phono preamps, quite a few costing thousands, which in itself is ridiculous. Not one, yes not one, has a means of providing to get the loading of choice correct for different cartridges. This alone epitomizes everything that is wrong with the high end currently: - no sensible useful engineering, just eye candy, unjustified prices and marketing hype.

The result, when I audition turntables at high end voodoo dealers, the turntables sound pretty dreadful actually, compared to my carefully set up vintage turntables.

Worse, in general these dealers have no clue as to how to really set up a turntable. This is especially true of having to match arm weight (and therefore inertia) cartridge compliance and weight to get the total arm cartridge in the correct place. Getting this right is absolutely fundamental.

Worse a lot of these high end turntables do not have the means to actually make the minute essential adjustments to get really good results from LP.

But back to the phono wire question. The wire is just one part of the system, and has to be adjusted to the cartridge in use and and the preamp loading.

Unfortunately turntables are not plug and play to any extent, and require obsessional set up of numerous parameters, based on science and basic sound mechanical and electrical parameters, not voodoo and folk law, which is what one encounters far more often than not.
 
E

Escott1377

Enthusiast
I listed the Manley Chinook as part of the analog signal chain. Modeled after the Manley Steelhead, this phono pre will allow you to make loading adjustments based on the characteristics of your input cable and cartridge.

We are talking picofarads of difference, but the pre will allow for the difference.

I came here to ask a simple question b/c I am in agreement that a quality, low cost cable (such as BJC) can outperform interconnects and / or speaker wires of much higher price tags.

Hopefully you all can respect that I wished to prove this to myself rather than take someone else's word as being true.

I have been guilty of spending $2k on a pair of speaker wires that I no longer use, and have opted for the 10 AWG option from Blue Jeans.

The irony is that I joined this site b/c I do believe that well made wire will behave the same as whatever AQ or Kimber may be touting as the latest invention. I could not ask the same question on the other forum that I regularly visit b/c they do not agree with my above conclusion.

I do spend time these since there is a small group of tube fanatics that I interract with and a board that was created for the speakers that I have had for years. I get a lot of knowledge from being able to interact with the president and chief designer.

Seems like a lot of hoopla' for a question that could have been answered pretty easily, in fact just confirming what I already thought was true.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I listed the Manley Chinook as part of the analog signal chain. Modeled after the Manley Steelhead, this phono pre will allow you to make loading adjustments based on the characteristics of your input cable and cartridge.

We are talking picofarads of difference, but the pre will allow for the difference.

I came here to ask a simple question b/c I am in agreement that a quality, low cost cable (such as BJC) can outperform interconnects and / or speaker wires of much higher price tags.

Hopefully you all can respect that I wished to prove this to myself rather than take someone else's word as being true.

I have been guilty of spending $2k on a pair of speaker wires that I no longer use, and have opted for the 10 AWG option from Blue Jeans.

The irony is that I joined this site b/c I do believe that well made wire will behave the same as whatever AQ or Kimber may be touting as the latest invention. I could not ask the same question on the other forum that I regularly visit b/c they do not agree with my above conclusion.

I do spend time these since there is a small group of tube fanatics that I interact with and a board that was created for the speakers that I have had for years. I get a lot of knowledge from being able to interact with the president and chief designer.

Seems like a lot of hoopla' for a question that could have been answered pretty easily, in fact just confirming what I already thought was true.
Well, I guess the answer to your question is that the insertion point does not matter.

I'm sorry you have a somewhat rough reception.

However, as you have probably gathered by now, this is an objective sight. There are lot of folks on the Audiophool sites who hate this forum. They frequently try to invade, and cause no end of trouble for the members here.

So, when we get posts about audible difference of cables and see tube amps, our BS antennas get extended in a hurry. At least 99% of the time, the posters who come in with the type of post you had are bad news. We really do try and get rid of them fast.

What we try to do, is give sensible education and advice that can be backed up, and help members get the optimal results from their budget, which frequently does not extend far.

I think we do, do a reasonable job of helping posters with problems of set up and equipment problems and failures. We do our best to give them the correct and most cost effective advice. That includes, but is in no way limited to steering them away from spending their hard earned dollars on "funny wire", as Peter Walker used to call it. Unfortunately the new owners of the Quad line are now also purveyors of the "funny wire" that Peter so vehemently detested.

I knew him well, and assured him that as long as I was alive, I would give those idiots no quarter. As I pointed out these people are not harmless, and they have and continue to do great harm to the hobby. We would be far further ahead without that crowd, and I believe there would be many more people and families enjoying the benefits of fine audio and now the wonders of AV. These brick and mortar stores are a huge turn off for people looking for good results from well made durable equipment within their budget. It was not always this way.

And while we are on it. There really is no need to be building tube amps, unless you just like the look of them. You can arguably build better solid state amps and for less cost. These tube amps are just another example of the aberrant road that has been traveled this last quarter century or so.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.

I have known two "degreed electrical engineers" who thought there were audible differences between analog cables. Backed up their beliefs with their wallets too. One even has an MSEE from CMU, proving that a high-end formal education is helpful but insufficient for critical technical thinking.

What in your knowledge of signal theory,
electromagnetics, or physics would lead you to believe that different twisted pairs of insulated copper wires would sound different?
That's assuming they are twisted pair, not coaxial.
 
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