Bose Punts

[Gaius Caligula]

Just to test its stance, I recently sent the following letter to Bose:

I'm in the market for either bookshelf or floorstanding speakers. As an educated shopper and audio enthusiast, I insist on having as much factual information as possible with which to make my decisions. Indeed, I've been to various reputable speaker manufacturers' websites (e.g., Tannoy, Klipsch, Wharfedale, etc.) and have easily found the specifications for the speakers I review. Your website, however, lists only weights and sizes under speaker "specifications." This is wholly unacceptable. Where are your frequency responses, impedance ratings, input power ratings, sensitivity ratings, crossover frequencies, etc.? These figures are, of course, ESSENTIAL to the educated, online shopper.

Where you market yourself as one of the world's finest speaker manufacturers, it is totally nonsensical that this information is not readily available to consumers. Please send me a catalog and data fully disclosing the specifications (i.e., not just the weight and size) of your speaker line so that I can make an informed decision.

And I received the following response from Bose:

Thank you for your interest in Bose Corporation.

We appreciate the difficulty that consumers face when choosing loudspeakers. Information provided by manufacturers can often be confusing, and it may suggest a basis for comparing speaker performance that is unrelated to the speakers' performance in your listening environment. Furthermore, a speaker's response in a lab (or even a calibrated living room) does not always suggest that you will achieve that response in your room.

There is a great deal of variety in response-measuring techniques. Most of these techniques neglect how a listening room and the speakers' placement in that room can affect the response. On top of that, there is no clear and easy methodology for comparing responses. Our feeling is that response curves are a poor customer tool for comparing two speakers. For this reason, Bose (R) elects not to publish curves.

Bose recognizes that listening to a speaker in an audio store can only approximate the performance that a customer might achieve at home. Only when a speaker is installed in a listening room can the customer learn what its actual performance is. That's why Bose designs speakers using a combination of laboratory measurements and real-world evaluation methods in homes that represent a broad range of sizes, shapes, and constructions. We want to ensure that our speakers sound good in the listening environment that really matters; yours.

Taking a car for a test-drive cannot tell you what it will be like to live with that car. Similarly, a brief audition of a speaker can only begin to tell you what you might experience in your home. The common thread is that you are the customer, and you are the one seeking an enjoyable experience. You can compare speaker specifications and read reviews, but this will not tell you what you will experience in your own home. You can ask your friends what they like, or read testimonials from Bose customers to learn about their experiences and this may suggest that your experience might be similar.

Ultimately, your ears are the only equipment that can adequately compare speakers for you. We can only do the best we know how, using proven research and decades of design experience. We are confident that our speakers' performance compares favorably with the many high-quality speaker products available today. Our customers have consistently expressed their satisfaction with, and enjoyment of, Bose speakers and systems over the years. We hope that you will have an opportunity to reach the same conclusion.

 

[zipper]

Wow........what a cop-out. Will they offer a 30-day free in-home trial like many other "high-quality speaker products available today" ? Or is that also a "poor customer tool for comparing two speakers" ?

 

[Nomo]

That's not a punt. More like a squib kick.
Sounds like a canned response to a question that they've been asked before.
A very telling testiment to the Blose marketing geniuses.

 

[zumbo]

Looks like the same question and answer here:
Ok, I am sure I am not the first person to do this, but I felt compelled to do so after reading this thread. I never realized that they did not post specs with their speakers until a few months ago reading a BOSE bash thread. So I thought that I would take a minute and see how they would respond. Monday I sent and email to Bose that read like this


Quote:
Originally Posted by rgriffin25
Hello,

Recently, I have been doing some research on speakers. I have become a bit curious after researching your speakers as to why a person cannot find any technical information. Nearly all of the other brands I have looked at include audible specifications. Such as the frequency range (ex. 20hz to 20khz). They also include the sensitivity level of a given speaker from a given distance. For example 91db @ 1 meter with 1 watt of power.

Is there a way you could send this information to me. Or perhaps a link to where I can find this on your website.

Thanks in advance,
Rob



This quote is word for word the response I received from them today.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BOSE
Dear Mr. Griffin-

Thank you for your interest in Bose Corporation.

We appreciate the difficulty that consumers face when choosing loudspeakers. Information provided by manufacturers can often be confusing, and it may suggest a basis for comparing speaker performance that is unrelated to the speakers' performance in your listening environment. Furthermore, a speaker's response in a lab (or even a calibrated living room) does not always suggest that you will achieve that response in your room.

There is a great deal of variety in response-measuring techniques. Most of these techniques neglect how a listening room and the speakers' placement in that room can affect the response. On top of that, there is no clear and easy methodology for comparing responses. Our feeling is that response curves are a poor customer tool for comparing two speakers. For this reason, Bose (R) elects not to publish curves.

Bose recognizes that listening to a speaker in an audio store can only approximate the performance that a customer might achieve at home. Only when a speaker is installed in a listening room can the customer learn what its actual performance is. That's why Bose designs speakers using a combination of laboratory measurements and real-world evaluation methods in homes that represent a broad range of sizes, shapes, and constructions. We want to ensure that our speakers sound good in the listening environment that really matters; yours.

Taking a car for a test-drive cannot tell you what it will be like to live with that car. Similarly, a brief audition of a speaker can only begin to tell you what you might experience in your home. The common thread is that you are the customer, and you are the one seeking an enjoyable experience. You can compare speaker specifications and read reviews, but this will not tell you what you will experience in your own home. You can ask your friends what they like, or read testimonials from Bose customers to learn about their experiences and this may suggest that your experience might be similar.

Ultimately, your ears are the only equipment that can adequately compare speakers for you. We can only do the best we know how, using proven research and decades of design experience. We are confident that our speakers' performance compares favorably with the many high-quality speaker products available today. Our customers have consistently expressed their satisfaction with, and enjoyment of, Bose speakers and systems over the years. We hope that you will have an opportunity to reach the same conclusion.

Please let us know if there is anything else you need.

Thank you for contacting Bose Corporation

 

[Rock&Roll Ninja]

Of course I expect them to hide the FR curve... everyone knows they don't do that. But shouldn't they say if they're 8-Ohm or 6-Ohm speakers, wouldn't this possibly lead to damaged equipment in some cases?

 

[Tomorrow]

I came into this Bose-blows-nose-hose thread after Clint closed the, ahem, lengthy other one out. And I'll be the first to admit that I did not read all the posts in that thread.

But I did see that our friend, Mulie, when not trying to equate spelling aptitude with audio knowledge, did say that two eq's are better than one with 901's. He suggested you even give 'em a listen to see/hear.

I can tell you I did that years ago. I can most definitively concur that the 901's sounded twice as voluminously thin to my ears, as with one eq.

And as a little postscript....we had (past tense) a Bose 'Factory Outlet' in our little burg. I went in there two years ago and gave a listen to their "top-of-the-line" models. The sales staff was instructed to turn the volume up to deafening db's for all customers. "Look how powerful these little beauties are!" The store went out of business within the year.

But really, haven't we had enough fun with this already? If Mulie doesn't have his tongue stuck directly in his cheek, then he has already suffered enough at the hands of a certain speaker company.

Good cheer.

 

[hillbill]

I just don't understand why all the hate for BOSE and even for Monster Cable on this site. Yes I understand that Monsters' cables are overpriced and yes I understand that BOSE speakers are overpriced, but who cares?! These are businesses out to make money! Obviously they are both quite successfull and I think if you ask most of their customers, you'd find that they are satisfied. If you don't like their stuff, don't buy it!

I am not defending these companies and their products and/or prices but this constant barrage of complaints and attacks is just plain childish. These two companies simply represent choices for consumers. And choices ultimately result in better products and prices for everybody.

My two cents.

 

[jaxvon]

Here's the general thing:

Monster cable has insanely aggressive marketing that borders on evil. They've brought lawsuits against literally hundreds of other people and companies for using the word "Monster" in their products and business names. The overpriced thing is a secondary consideration. They do, however, make a lot of very good products and if you know where to buy, can be had for normal prices.

Bose spends a lot of money on marketing and not enough on actual research. For a company that claims "Better Sound Through Research", their cheaply made speakers and components indicate that not much research in the way of audio is being done. Unlike Monster who overcharges for quality products, Bose sells garbage products at high prices.

 

[ducker]

re: monster - because of things like this... watching an older woman (most likely a mom) buying cables for her son at a Circut City and selecting from her options there... Monster brand A, Monster brand B, Monster brand C, or another slightly less over priced cable mfg. Yet for her son's listening needs she could probably do just fine at Radio Shack. Why do I think this? Because she spent a good 30 minutes looking at all the different Monster Cable displays and selections they had there.

It is evil... I bet Monster payed quite a bit of money to get in to stores and have nearly a monopoly on what is offered at the store.

 

[Shinerman]

These are businesses out to make money!

So was Enron!

Shinerman

 

[BMXTRIX]

I think it's a fair question - and I think that people are giving some good responses.

I definitely own some stuff from Monster, having worked at a store that sold them so I could get stuff at cost, or below. I have been very happy with the quality of their products and there is no question that they pay a lot to get into stores. BUT: They don't pay the STORES to get into stores. They advertise and they set themselves up like Bose does, as a 'primo' product. At least Monsters stuff doesn't suck and when someone overpays for their product, they actually are getting something decent. The reason you see them everywhere is because STORES make a lot of money by selling Monster Cable and people WANT Monster Cable. Any informed consumer can find out quickly that Monster is overpriced, but you usually won't find many complaints with their actual products.

Bose is just the bottom of the barrel though. They have aggressive marketing, like Monster, yet put out a horrible product. Okay, maybe if their stuff was a hundred bucks - maybe 200. But, that's where it should be at, not at $1,200.00+ for what amounts to little more than garbage.

I'm not cool with Monster going after everyone using the word 'Monster' but also understand that branding is something that needs to be protected. As long as they don't go overboard - which they have. They need to real their stupid policy back some and do a little research before sending a stupid lawyer after mom & pop shops.

Bose just sucks in every aspect. It does sound good - very comparible to my Aiwa boom box that I got ten years ago for 50 bucks at Sears.

$1,300?????? No.

 

[Audioholics]

Some of Bose's Lifestyle systems are actually quite attractive. They are just drastically underpowered, lack many essential features, and come with speakers that produce the "boom & sizzle" that consumers think represents good sound. Many people install these systems only to find that they can't add an SACD player to their system or even another device with component video outputs (that will be switched through the head unit, anyway).

So what is the end result? It's good. Bose got someone into home theater. After using the system they will likely want more, especially after they get more familiar with HD or upgrade their cable system and have needs that aren't met by Bose.

Now you have another home theater enthusiast that grows out of the entry-level (featured, not priced) Lifestyle product and jumps into the market to see what options and features exist in other products that can meet his needs. In addition, their spouse - now acclimated to seeing 5 speakers and a sub - may "allow" a larger, more robust purchase.

Bose isn't evil - they are actually helping the industry grow by pulling people into home theater with their marketing efforts.

 

[Shinerman]

Bose isn't evil - they are actually helping the industry grow by pulling people into home theater with their marketing efforts.

Clint, I have to disagree with you there. If, and I stress, if Bose priced those systems at say $400 to $750 or so then I would completely agree with you. But, and I stress, but pricing systems over $3k with all the limitations that you mentioned above is "Evil" They are preying on the unsuspecting consumer and charging 10 times what their product is worth. Is it illegal to do what they do? No. But, it is Evil. The email quoted is this post and others just goes to show they know it and they don't care.

Shinerman

 

[twheeloc]

Perspective

I'll have to agree with Clint that Bose marketing has the potential to bring more people into the home theater world. When working in audio/video people would always be drawn to the Bose demo system because it was a name they knew. They'd press the button and be "wowed" through the demo, then they'd look at the price. As a sales person this is when I'd make contact and agree with them that the price is a little high...and then I'd explain to them that there are systems that I think are better for about half the price and would they be interested. They might not walk out with the Bose system or the 1500 dollar system next door, but even a 500 dollar investment would get them in to the world of home theater. Maybe only 1 in 10 would go beyond the HTIB but that's one more person.

As to Bose not marketing their frequency response it's probably a smart business move. They've found a sound that people for whatever reason love. Largely that's based on the frequency response. Bose at this point is not designed for the descriminating Audiophile, not their market AT ALL. Why should we even care what it is. It doesn't matter unless you're an audio purist at which point if you think Bose sounds natural and realistic you should get out of the hobby now. They state it in their letter. Let your ears be the judge. Some people want a Monet hanging in their living room and some people want the latest centerfold from playboy, or car & driver. It's all preference. The final message is use your ears.

 

[Audioholics]

But, and I stress, but pricing systems over $3k with all the limitations that you mentioned above is "Evil" They are preying on the unsuspecting consumer and charging 10 times what their product is worth. Is it illegal to do what they do? No. But, it is Evil. The email quoted is this post and others just goes to show they know it and they don't care.

You don't use an Apple Computer do you? How about from 2001-2003? Profits, good marketing, and success don't make a company evil. People buy Bose for more than just sound quality. They buy for aesthetics, appeal and the "sex" factor. My only point (can't believe I'm so vigorously defending them) is that they are not doing anything "evil" or even wrong in my book. You are simply placing more emphasis on their sound quality and profit margins. The people buying, don't.

 

[ducker]

They buy for aesthetics, appeal and the "sex" factor.

Does this have anything to do with WAF? ie, due to it's higher WAF, there is a higher "S"F? If so, I might want to return my Athena Audition series setup...

 

[cmusic]

Last January the corporate lawyer for my company called me wanting to install a Bose 3-2-1 Series II GS system his wife had bought him for Christmas. She paid about $1200 for the system. It consisted of two speakers about 4”x6” in size, one subwoofer/amp module, and a DVD player/AM/FM radio module with audio/video switching.

As I looked though the owner’s manual I found no technical specs except the DVD player was said to be progressive scan and had component video output. I looked on the rear of the DVD module and saw no component video outputs, only composite and S-video inputs and outputs. There were two S-video to component video adapter cables in the package though. There was not a word about progressive scan in the actual step by step instruction section of the owner’s manual. I highly suspect the unit does not have progressive scan capabilities.

I ended up running the video from his cable box directly to his TV because running it though the Bose DVD module sometimes got confused with the audio source that was playing. Sometimes the cable box audio would play with DVD video and other sorts of combinations of audio and video.

The composite and S-video and analog RCA audio connections on the back of the DVD module were wobbly. Two weeks ago I had to revisit his home to fix the Bose system; the cable running from the DVD module to the sub/amp had vibrated loose. There was no digital audio input on the module either, so he could not pass the Dolby Digital signal from his cable box to the Bose system.

He was happy with the sound. I was not that impressed but I am more accustomed to better sound anyway. I found no tone or gain controls on the Bose unit that I could adjust. It was all plug and play. What you heard was what you got.

He kept asking me if his wife got a good system. I did not have the heart to tell him the truth. I kept telling him if he liked it then his wife had done well.

 

[Gaius Caligula]

I just don't understand why all the hate for BOSE and even for Monster Cable on this site. Yes I understand that Monsters' cables are overpriced and yes I understand that BOSE speakers are overpriced, but who cares?! These are businesses out to make money! Obviously they are both quite successfull and I think if you ask most of their customers, you'd find that they are satisfied. If you don't like their stuff, don't buy it!

I am not defending these companies and their products and/or prices but this constant barrage of complaints and attacks is just plain childish. These two companies simply represent choices for consumers. And choices ultimately result in better products and prices for everybody.

My two cents.

Do you realize how many new readers hit these threads every day? Many of which come here with the marketing-induced concept that both Bose and Monster Cable are the best-in-the-business, totally worth the prices they charge? These threads serve, inter alia, as beacons of education for many, many visitors to the forums. We are doing our part to educate blossoming audio ethusiasts. It's time well spent.

 

[victoriacoffee]

Time Well Spent-I agree!

Do you realize how many new readers hit these threads every day? Many of which come here with the marketing-induced concept that both Bose and Monster Cable are the best-in-the-business, totally worth the prices they charge? These threads serve, inter alia, as beacons of education for many, many visitors to the forums. We are doing our part to educate blossoming audio ethusiasts. It's time well spent.

I must admit, when I began looking at upgrading our Sony HTIB, which served us very well and is now entertaining our kids, strongly considered one of the Lifestyle systems. My brother-in-law has a Bose system and he usually researches purchases pretty well, so I thought why not. I read a handful of positive reviews, liked the size, and thought for the price they were charging, it must be pretty good. But before purchasing, I compared it to a few other systems and found something that troubled me - no technical data beyond connection information. I even went to a local store that carried a Bose line, looked at the box info and still could not find what I was looking for. Then I began reading threads such as this one and decided that maybe Bose is not all that its cracked up to be. I thought, "How can a system with this kind of price offer such lousy connection options?" Heck, add one component and you've reached the limits of the Lifestyle capability. That stinks.

With that understanding, I spent the same amount of money for better speakers, A/V receiver, and DVD player and still have plenty of room for growth. Now I look at my brother-in-law and realize he went with Bose because he believed the marketing hype.

 

[cbraver]

You don't use an Apple Computer do you? How about from 2001-2003? Profits, good marketing, and success don't make a company evil. People buy Bose for more than just sound quality. They buy for aesthetics, appeal and the "sex" factor. My only point (can't believe I'm so vigorously defending them) is that they are not doing anything "evil" or even wrong in my book. You are simply placing more emphasis on their sound quality and profit margins. The people buying, don't.

I completely agree with your opinion on Bose, Clint.

As far as the comments on Monster Cable, I just chuckle... I think the guy is a business genious. If I was in his shoes, I would have done the same damn thing. No doubt in my mind. And his products aren't "bad" ...they are just expensive. But both for him and retailers, they are an awesome success.

I really don't see how he is morally superior to that Blue Jeans Cable guy that sells that stuff and tries to pass it off as extremely affordable compared to elsewhere. When you can go to any pro-audio store and get the same or better **** for less. Or, just go buy some terminators and then use some CAT5 cable and it'll sound just as good. But they aren't doing anything WRONG, per say, they are just making business. God bless 'em.

Same thing.

-Chad