Bookshelf versus floorstanding speakers / Advice on subwoofer

B

Bman484

Audioholic Intern
I know this type of thread has been discussed in the past and not to beat a dead horse :)

I am in the process of building out a home theater with the room size is 12x12ft and 9ft ceilings. It is open on the rear wall, but enclosed on all 3 sides.

My current setup is 5.1.4
LCR TBD
4xMonitor Audio 380-IDC (in ceiling)
2xMonitor Audio w380-IDC (in wall)
1xSubwoofer TBD but leaning towards Rhythmic FV15HP (but is this overkill for this space?)
Receiver Deion x6700h


I have read numerous reviews about floorstanding speakers and it seems as though for my space people would probably agree that bookshelf is enough given the size of my room?

I have narrowed down my bookshelf speakers to a few options (in order of preference)
1. ELAC VELA 403
2. Focal Solo6
3. Salk BMW Monitors
Any thoughts on these for my room?

My next dilemma is what to do for a center speaker, if I went the Elac would one recommend the ELAC 401 for the center speaker? What other options would I have for a center speaker?

Next question, would anyone recommend floorstanding speakers for this setup instead of bookshelf?

One last question, what other subs would you recommend for this space to save $ and not be overkill for this space.
 
H

Hetfield

Audioholic Samurai
I was the biggest proponent of bookshelf and subs and I still think it's a great route to save money and have a great HT. I recently went back to towers/floor standers though, small towers in the JBL Studio 570s and I forgot how much towers/floor standers give you. The JBL 580s are on sale right now for 299.99 each which is the bigger, middle version in this series. These are tough to beat at these prices. Free shipping, free returns. The 570s are fan freaking tastic. These I'd imagine are even better.

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DigitalDawn

DigitalDawn

Senior Audioholic
What is the percentage of movie watching vs music listening?
 
DigitalDawn

DigitalDawn

Senior Audioholic
I think that bookshelf speakers with external subs is a great way to go because it gives you much more flexibility. You can locate subs in positions where they will perform best, positions that may not be appropriate for bookshelf speakers.

Take a look at Triad Speakers. Fantastic company.
 
B

Bman484

Audioholic Intern
I think that bookshelf speakers with external subs is a great way to go because it gives you much more flexibility. You can locate subs in positions where they will perform best, positions that may not be appropriate for bookshelf speakers.

Take a look at Triad Speakers. Fantastic company.
Does triad make bookshelf? If so what do you recommend that is similar quality to the ones I have on my list? I have already purchased my monitor audio so in wall and in ceiling are already done, unfortunately.


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G

Genchic

Junior Audioholic
Focal makes great products. I'd go with Focal floor speakers up to your budget, and they have a matching center channel. Subs can never be overkill, they can be adjusted.

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ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
3. Salk BMW Monitors
Dennis is selling his revised BMR Monitors again... You do not get the custom finishing work Jim offers for any of his products, but you still get one of the best 3-way standmounts which can compete against Speakers priced well over Dennis' price.

IIRC, Dennis is currently taking reservations for the new production run of BMR Monitors and Towers. I think the expected delivery time is right around the end of the year.

I use an all Philharmonic setup for a 7-channel system and would not change anything, especially for use in my smaller room. Perhaps in a larger room with a seating distance of about 12', you could quite well make the argument that the BMRs are not the best for high SPL playback (if you are chasing reference levels...). That's one reason he introduced the Tower design.
However, in a small room, I can get it uncomfortably loud. ;) ...And the Lady is always asking me to turn it down when we are watching a movie together. (Really surprised she didn't intervene when I was watching Blade Runner 2049 the other night... with a good set of Subwoofers, that movie will help settle the foundation of any home!)'

Anyway, the point being, whether you order from Dennis directly, or Salk for the custom finish, in the BMR Monitor (or Tower) you get a very Neutral and Accurate Speaker. From a Music perspective, the SQ is stunningly realistic to what I (trained musician) know instruments and the human voice to sound like. Those qualities, applied to Movies or Gaming are still very much appreciated.

For a Center channel, Dennis will rotate the tweeter on the monitor 90º or you can keep it upright as I do. For awhile, before my mains were finished, I ran three BMRs across the front. :)

Enjoy your pursuit!
 
Last edited:
B

Bman484

Audioholic Intern
Dennis is selling his revised BMR Monitors again... You do not get the custom finishing work Jim offers for any of his products, but you still get one of the best 3-way standmounts which can compete against Speakers priced well over Dennis' price.

IIRC, Dennis is currently taking reservations for the new production run of BMR Monitors and Towers. I think the expected delivery time is right around the end of the year.

I use an all Philharmonic setup for a 7-channel system and would not change anything, especially for use in my smaller room. Perhaps in a larger room with a seating distance of about 12', you could quite well make the argument that the BMRs are not the best for high SPL playback (if you are chasing reference levels...). That's one reason he introduced the Tower design.
However, in a small room, I can get it uncomfortably loud. ;) ...And the Lady is always asking me to turn it down when we are watching a movie together. (Really surprised she didn't intervene when I was watching Blade Runner 2049 the other night... with a good set of Subwoofers, that movie will help settle the foundation of any home!)'

Anyway, the point being, whether you order from Dennis directly, or Salk for the custom finish, in the BMR Monitor (or Tower) you get a very Neutral and Accurate Speaker. From a Music perspective, the SQ is stunningly realistic to what I (trained musician) know instruments and the human voice to sound like. Those qualities, applied to Movies or Gaming are still very much appreciated.

For a Center channel, Dennis will rotate the tweeter on the monitor 90º or you can keep it upright as I do. For awhile, before my mains were finished, I ran three BMRs across the front. :)

Enjoy your pursuit!
Great thank you! I had been emailing with Dennis yesterday and didn’t realize I could order directly through him. Great pricing for what seems to be a fantastic speaker. I think I’m sold


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ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
Great thank you! I had been emailing with Dennis yesterday and didn’t realize I could order directly through him. Great pricing for what seems to be a fantastic speaker. I think I’m sold


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I may be biased, of course... but this would be a good decision. ;)

Now... about the subs...

:D

We love to spend other peoples money here, and especially on Subs!

Here's the trick question:
Your Listening/viewing are is 12'x12'...
How big, from a volumetric standpoint, is your whole open room?
...the room size is 12x12ft and 9ft ceilings. It is open on the rear wall, but enclosed on all 3 sides.
Unlike your regular speakers where direction and distance matter more, Subwoofers and the Low Frequencies they produce are quasi-omni-directional and the total room volume becomes more the issue.
The Rythmik Sub is, by all accounts a very good Sub. There are a lot of good Subs out there from other Internet Direct sellers as well.
I think the main questions after room size are:
How low do you wanna go?
How loud?
Will you add a second Sub?
 
B

Bman484

Audioholic Intern
I may be biased, of course... but this would be a good decision. ;)

Now... about the subs...

:D

We love to spend other peoples money here, and especially on Subs!

Here's the trick question:
Your Listening/viewing are is 12'x12'...
How big, from a volumetric standpoint, is your whole open room?

Unlike your regular speakers where direction and distance matter more, Subwoofers and the Low Frequencies they produce are quasi-omni-directional and the total room volume becomes more the issue.
The Rythmik Sub is, by all accounts a very good Sub. There are a lot of good Subs out there from other Internet Direct sellers as well.
I think the main questions after room size are:
How low do you wanna go?
How loud?
Will you add a second Sub?
I will attach a picture of our basement. The media room is 12x12 (the yellow line is our room) as I mentioned. The rear wall opens to a room that is 36ft deep from the tv with a stairway as you can see. The space next to the media room is 18ft wide. I am not opposed to have a 2nd sub but need to figure out where to fit it in our already rather tight space. When speaking to rhythmic I asked if I should do 2x12” or 1 FV15HP they said the the 15. Let me know your thoughts.

I marked out 2 x’s where I could put the 2 subs. The one near the tv wall is the preferred spot if I only have 1.



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ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
When I shopped Rythmik several years ago, I had some interesting conversations with Enrico. The thing to consider is that multi-sub isn't so much about sheer output SPL, it's about smoothing the room modes that will affect the Low Frequency performance in you room. Needless to say, this can be a tricky and expensive rabbit warren to delve into without some measure of understanding...
The balance is overall room volume against high quality bass where you are seated. You do not need to pressurize the entire open room volume to enjoy good bass in your Listening/Viewing area, so no, you do not need to go out and buy four 21" Subwoofers that can output at 130dB each. That's the good news.
The flipside (not really bad news) is that to gain the benefit of good quality Bass in your main seats, you need a little freedom to experiment with placement. In an irregular shaped room that is not closed off and completely rectangular, the common "rules" start to break down.
One solution is to put one in the front of the room, and have another "near-field" perhaps right behind your sofa or chars, or as an end table. Another solution could be outside your seating area; perhaps on the wall between the "office" and the "gym." Likewise, on that "backwall" opposite the area in question against the "stairs." Of course, there is no guarantee that either of those spots would work.

At any rate, the kicker is getting good quality bass that sounds good across the seating area so more than one person can enjoy the "sweet spot" can be tricky, but is well worth the effort. Of course, you can be greedy and make your seat the money spot in the room, and the wife won't know what she's missing! You could put the sweet spot right in the middle, but both of you could end up getting no bass at all until you move locations... and then be like "why is so so loud all the sudden?!" :p

At any rate, more about raising awareness here than trying to convince you. That said, any moderate dive here on AH and you will see we tend to be strong proponents of Multi-Sub. I'm in a small room, 11x15' and about 2000cu.ft, and right now I have 2 very capable Subs that could hold their own in a much larger room. When I move around, I'm also never asking myself "where's the beef?" :)

Keep in mind, you can always start with one, and add a second, later, if you find it necessary.

Cheers!
 
B

Bman484

Audioholic Intern
When I shopped Rythmik several years ago, I had some interesting conversations with Enrico. The thing to consider is that multi-sub isn't so much about sheer output SPL, it's about smoothing the room modes that will affect the Low Frequency performance in you room. Needless to say, this can be a tricky and expensive rabbit warren to delve into without some measure of understanding...
The balance is overall room volume against high quality bass where you are seated. You do not need to pressurize the entire open room volume to enjoy good bass in your Listening/Viewing area, so no, you do not need to go out and buy four 21" Subwoofers that can output at 130dB each. That's the good news.
The flipside (not really bad news) is that to gain the benefit of good quality Bass in your main seats, you need a little freedom to experiment with placement. In an irregular shaped room that is not closed off and completely rectangular, the common "rules" start to break down.
One solution is to put one in the front of the room, and have another "near-field" perhaps right behind your sofa or chars, or as an end table. Another solution could be outside your seating area; perhaps on the wall between the "office" and the "gym." Likewise, on that "backwall" opposite the area in question against the "stairs." Of course, there is no guarantee that either of those spots would work.

At any rate, the kicker is getting good quality bass that sounds good across the seating area so more than one person can enjoy the "sweet spot" can be tricky, but is well worth the effort. Of course, you can be greedy and make your seat the money spot in the room, and the wife won't know what she's missing! You could put the sweet spot right in the middle, but both of you could end up getting no bass at all until you move locations... and then be like "why is so so loud all the sudden?!" :p

At any rate, more about raising awareness here than trying to convince you. That said, any moderate dive here on AH and you will see we tend to be strong proponents of Multi-Sub. I'm in a small room, 11x15' and about 2000cu.ft, and right now I have 2 very capable Subs that could hold their own in a much larger room. When I move around, I'm also never asking myself "where's the beef?" :)

Keep in mind, you can always start with one, and add a second, later, if you find it necessary.

Cheers!
Thanks! A lot to consider. The one problem is that I need to make a decision in the next week where to run the sub wires. I’m thinking in the front next to the tv and end table. My wife might be opposed to it out in the open.

So it seems like you’d be more a fan of 2 subs versus 1 monster. Would 2 12” suffice? I was also eyeing the HSU given the price. Aesthetically it is a pretty basic looking piece, though.


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S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
Thanks! A lot to consider. The one problem is that I need to make a decision in the next week where to run the sub wires. I’m thinking in the front next to the tv and end table. My wife might be opposed to it out in the open.

So it seems like you’d be more a fan of 2 subs versus 1 monster. Would 2 12” suffice? I was also eyeing the HSU given the price. Aesthetically it is a pretty basic looking piece, though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
With good placement, 2 subs have a serious qualitative advantage over a single sub. The quality of bass is perceived through the smoothness of the response, and two subs can do a lot more to smooth out the room response than a single sub. People who claim to want the best sound quality and then buy a single sub when they could have had multiple subs were kidding themselves about wanting the best sound. The difference can be dramatic. In other words, two good subs will sound a lot better than one "great" sub. Three is even better. Just get the room response flat.
 
B

Bman484

Audioholic Intern
Thanks! A lot to consider. The one problem is that I need to make a decision in the next week where to run the sub wires. I’m thinking in the front next to the tv and end table. My wife might be opposed to it out in the open.

So it seems like you’d be more a fan of 2 subs versus 1 monster. Would 2 12” suffice? I was also eyeing the HSU given the price. Aesthetically it is a pretty basic looking piece, though.


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Is putting it in the closet under the stairs an option?


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B

Bman484

Audioholic Intern
Focal makes great products. I'd go with Focal floor speakers up to your budget, and they have a matching center channel. Subs can never be overkill, they can be adjusted.

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As a side note, I had a local person selling the focal chora 826-d + center channel for 2700. Seemed like a decent deal since they were only a few months old. Any thoughts on these specific speakers for my space?


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G

Genchic

Junior Audioholic
Very nice set. I listened to them in ABT store sound room. They are not too big for even smaller room.

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ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
Focal makes some decent gear... Their higher end stuff is much better. Not to say the entry level gear isn't worth checking out. What I recall from a few years ago is that like most other entry level stuff, you can find a few things to complain about and perhaps spending $500 more on a different brand takes you past those issues... ;)
That's really the thing at everybody's entry level stuff. If you set a budget, start shopping, see the things you want that somebody else is doing a little better, then update your budget accordingly... You wash, rinse and repeat your way up to $4-5000 Mains and a $1300 center! :)
For the record, I do not think those will compare to the BMR Monitors in overall capability. I even auditioned the older KEF R900, and frankly preferred the BMRs to those at ~$5K new (Floor model I auditioned was offered to sell at $4K and probably coulda gotten that down some.
Anyway, the one comment I will make is that small 2-way MTM centers are notorious for questionable performance. If you sit in a limited space and don't move around much, you likely wouldn't encounter any issue, but wider seating areas and moving around will reveal some nulls in the horizontal dispersion due to the woofers interfering with each other, a phenomenon called Lobing.

If you have an opportunity to check them out and hear them, you should!

New, you can get the 826 for 1095 ea plus the center for 800. I'm not a fan of the 'bouncy-house' atmos modules. The "D" version is 1395 each, new.

To set those Atmos modules up properly, you need to get the geometry of speaker placement and the incidence of reflection to your LP just right.
 
B

Bman484

Audioholic Intern
Focal makes some decent gear... Their higher end stuff is much better. Not to say the entry level gear isn't worth checking out. What I recall from a few years ago is that like most other entry level stuff, you can find a few things to complain about and perhaps spending $500 more on a different brand takes you past those issues... ;)
That's really the thing at everybody's entry level stuff. If you set a budget, start shopping, see the things you want that somebody else is doing a little better, then update your budget accordingly... You wash, rinse and repeat your way up to $4-5000 Mains and a $1300 center! :)
For the record, I do not think those will compare to the BMR Monitors in overall capability. I even auditioned the older KEF R900, and frankly preferred the BMRs to those at ~$5K new (Floor model I auditioned was offered to sell at $4K and probably coulda gotten that down some.
Anyway, the one comment I will make is that small 2-way MTM centers are notorious for questionable performance. If you sit in a limited space and don't move around much, you likely wouldn't encounter any issue, but wider seating areas and moving around will reveal some nulls in the horizontal dispersion due to the woofers interfering with each other, a phenomenon called Lobing.

If you have an opportunity to check them out and hear them, you should!

New, you can get the 826 for 1095 ea plus the center for 800. I'm not a fan of the 'bouncy-house' atmos modules. The "D" version is 1395 each, new.

To set those Atmos modules up properly, you need to get the geometry of speaker placement and the incidence of reflection to your LP just right.
The ones that are for sale locally are the 826-d. Any thoughts on the elac 403. Someone selling some on audiomart I have been eyeing too. My setup will be used for movies 80% of the time.


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ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
The ones that are for sale locally are the 826-d. Any thoughts on the elac 403. Someone selling some on audiomart I have been eyeing too. My setup will be used for movies 80% of the time.


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The only ELAC stuff I am remotely familiar with is the Debut and UniFi lines.

You should post up here:
with the details and link. You may get some good feedback from the team that frequents that thread! :)
 
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