Bookshelf based 5.0 system advice

[Cygnus]

Hi all,

I am looking to upgrade my speaker system for my audio setup (along with everything else, but that's another story.) I have a goofy setup now, in that each speaker set is a different make and characteristic as a result. My fronts are two huge old towers, my center is some crazy brand I haven't heard much of before, whose name escapes me right now, and two of my rears are Awia cheapo's, and the rear center is a really cheap Sharp thing from the early 90's.

I don't need a sub because I already have a Klipsch that I'm very happy with.

I'm thinking my budget for this would be around $1200 Canadian. Is that too little to get something decent? I'm looking at the Paradigm Monitor Mini series, but I really don't know much about the MSRP on those.

I do know that I need to go to a store to check out speakers, that's a given, but I figured I'd ask here for any advice I can get.

I think it'd be about 70% music, 30% movies. Perhaps more for movies though once I upgrade the rest

Also, my total budget is looking like this:

Speakers: ~1200
Receiver: ~1000-1200
TV: ~700
BluRay player ~200

 

[sholling]

How big is the room and how far to the seating position? And what type of music? All of that matters. The room size and how far to the seating position because not all bookshelves can deal with a large room. What type of music because it takes more nuance for jazz and classical than metal or rap and the volume levels tend to be different.

I'll toss out one speaker idea blindly: If you have a medium sized room and value musical fidelity over volume then I'd give a listen to Usher's S-520 (review). I have no idea what they sell for in Canada but they run $400/pr in the States. These are some of the best sounding small bookshelves that I've listened to and I run them in my master bedroom. The bookshelves are 8ohm speakers but are small and have limited power handling so a medium sized room is about their limit, and they must be crossed over to the sub at 80hz to avoid damage. If you can live with those limitation they are awesome little speakers. The matched S-525 center is a 4ohm speaker. You could run a 2 pair of S-520 and a S-525 center or a single pair of S-520, an S-525, and cheap generic surrounds like the little Wharfedale WH-2 to stay in budget.

Receiver: Onkyo TX-NR708. It has plenty of power, every important feature, and is rated for 4ohm loads.
For the Blu-Ray just buy a PS/3.

 

[Cygnus]

As far as room size, it's not very big. I dont quite know the measurments, but it's just my..bedroom at the moment.

I'm planning on moving out (though I don't know where yet - perhaps a condo or small house?) later on in the spring perhaps next year, and I want to make it easier to move, rather than hauling the massive TV and speakers, plus I think it's about time anyways. I think I'll take a look at that receiver as well.

 

[Cygnus]

Not only are the speakers mishmashed together, but the fronts are falling apart and...it's just time . I may have time to go look at some this Saturday though so I am thinking of looking at some Paradigms. I'll get the speakers before anything else, as I have re-evaluated my priorities. The receiver isn't really going to make me go "wow, that's awesome!" The speakers - and television - are.

 

[sholling]

As far as room size, it's not very big. I dont quite know the measurments, but it's just my..bedroom at the moment.

I'm planning on moving out (though I don't know where yet - perhaps a condo or small house?) later on in the spring perhaps next year, and I want to make it easier to move, rather than hauling the massive TV and speakers, plus I think it's about time anyways. I think I'll take a look at that receiver as well.

The reason that I suggested that receiver is that it's 4ohm certified and the less expensive TX-SR608 isn't. If you go with the 608 you could still buy 2 sets of S-520 bookshelves and run 3 of the as left right and center. That's what I did in my bedroom.

 

[Pyrrho]

...
Also, my total budget is looking like this:

Speakers: ~1200
Receiver: ~1000-1200
TV: ~700
BluRay player ~200

If you are wanting the best sound quality for your total outlay of money, you should probably spend far less on the receiver, and put that extra money into better speakers. I was running my surround system with $6500 worth of speakers hooked up to a $600 receiver. I ended up replacing the receiver because I wanted more features (like HDMI inputs, etc.), and ended up with a $1700 receiver. Unless I engage a feature that affects the sound, the system sounds exactly like it did before. (The new receiver puts out about twice as much power as the old one, but the old one was capable of driving my speakers to painful levels with crystal clarity, so I did not need any more power.) If you want the best sound for your total outlay of money, get the least expensive receiver that has the features and power you need (the power needs, of course, can only be determined after the speakers are selected).

As for receivers, I would look at Yamaha, Denon, Marantz, and Pioneer, not necessarily in that order.

 

[Cygnus]

If you are wanting the best sound quality for your total outlay of money, you should probably spend far less on the receiver, and put that extra money into better speakers. I was running my surround system with $6500 worth of speakers hooked up to a $600 receiver. I ended up replacing the receiver because I wanted more features (like HDMI inputs, etc.), and ended up with a $1700 receiver. Unless I engage a feature that affects the sound, the system sounds exactly like it did before. (The new receiver puts out about twice as much power as the old one, but the old one was capable of driving my speakers to painful levels with crystal clarity, so I did not need any more power.) If you want the best sound for your total outlay of money, get the least expensive receiver that has the features and power you need (the power needs, of course, can only be determined after the speakers are selected).

As for receivers, I would look at Yamaha, Denon, Marantz, and Pioneer, not necessarily in that order.

I would like a receiver with at least...two HDMI inputs, the new surround sound formats, 1080p functionality and maybe 2 extra zones. I'm assuming that you don't automaticaly use all of the power your speakers require with your amp unless they're played at very loud levels. Am I correct? How does that work?

 

[Pyrrho]

I would like a receiver with at least...two HDMI inputs, the new surround sound formats, 1080p functionality and maybe 2 extra zones.

Other than the 2 extra zones, pretty much anything that is a new model that isn't a bottom of the line unit is going to have that and more.

I'm assuming that you don't automaticaly use all of the power your speakers require with your amp unless they're played at very loud levels. Am I correct? How does that work?

Yes, you are correct. How much power is fed to the speaker is directly related to how loud it is playing. I should have worded it, my new receiver is capable of putting out about twice as much power as my old one was. I probably have never had it actually put out more power, as the old one produced enough power for my needs.

With power, extra capability that you don't ever use does nothing for you. It is only if you need it that it will matter.


Most of the time, when listening to music that isn't very loud, one uses less than 1 watt of power. A fairly ordinary speaker will produce about 90 dB @ 1 watt @ 1 meter, which is quite loud. But each time one increases the volume 3 dB, it takes double the power. Thus, a speaker that has a sensitivity of 90 dB @ 1 watt @ 1 meter, will take 2 watts to give you 93 dB at the same distance, 4 watts to give you 96 dB, 8 watts to give you 99 dB, on up until nearing the limits of the speaker, where typically there will be some compression of the volume due to nearing excursion limits (with a typical speaker, the first tiny bit of movement is easier than the last tiny bit of movement just before reaching its absolute limit of excursion). So the need for power can go up fast, but in most cases, more power than an ordinary receiver will not be necessary.

Since speakers vary in power requirements, and also how much power a person needs depends upon the size of one's room and how loud one wants to hear it (some people like to play it so loud they are doing permanent damage to their hearing, which they typically won't notice until years later, and they cannot get back their lost hearing), there are no hard and fast rules on how much power is enough.

My advice is, pick out speakers first, keeping in mind that if they are not a difficult impedance (look for minimum impedances [which you may have to find in reviews rather than in manufacturer's information sheets], as some manufacturers of speakers are unscrupulous weasels who basically lie about the "nominal" impedance of their speakers) or very insensitive, unless you listen at volumes loud enough to permanently damage your hearing or are in a very large room, most receivers made from a reputable manufacturer will be powerful enough to adequately drive them. In which case, you can be looking at more expensive speakers and buy a more modest receiver for the same total outlay of money. I tend to like receivers in the $600 range for features for the money, but you must decide what matters to you.

With that $1700 receiver of mine, I paid less than a third of that for it because it was a discontinued, open box item from a local authorized dealer. I would never pay $1700 for a receiver, because one need not do so to get excellent sound. But I did spend thousands on my speakers. Spending less on my speakers would most definitely have affected the sound.

Now, if my speakers were insensitive or a difficult impedance, then I would concern myself with the amplification to drive them. But as it is, there is no need.

One other great advantage to putting your money in your speakers is this: When they come out with some new feature that you feel the need to get, it will make your receiver obsolete, but not your speakers. At that point, you will also be feeling glad that you did not put so much money in the receiver that you will replace. And, of course, having had better speakers all that time, you have enjoyed better sound and will continue to enjoy better sound with your nice, carefully selected [relatively] expensive speakers.

 

[Cygnus]

Thank you Pyrroh for the great help! Getting slightly off topic, how do ohms work?

 

[sholling]

Thank you Pyrroh for the great help! Getting slightly off topic, how do ohms work?

For your purposes it's simply a rating however I'll link a full explanation. Speakers are usually rated for nominal impedance and sometimes include a minimum impedance figure. Most speakers are rated for 8ohms nominal impedance, but may dip to 6omhs or a bit less now and then. Others are rated at 6oms, and still others at 4ohms. The lower the impedance the harder it is for an amplifier to drive. Any receiver I've ever seen was designed for 6-8ohm speakers, On the other hand very few budget receivers will comfortably drive a 4ohm speaker. That's feature that starts in mid priced products like Onkyo's 700 series.

 

[KEW]

You should look at accessories4less.com for your receiver. As said above, redirect any money you can to your speakers.

Accessories4less acts as an outlet for Marantz and Onkyo discontinued and manufacturer refurbished receivers. You can do a search here to see past threads on refurbished and accessories4less, but I have never had a problem with a manufacturer refurbished product (I don't buy if a third party did the refurb). Accessories4less has fast delivery & top notch customer service and the refurb receivers have a 1 year warranty.

For example, the Onkyo TX-NR708 runs $670 from Newegg.com.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882120155
You can get a refurbished Onkyo TX-NR708 for $530 from Accessories4less.
http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/ONKTXNR708/Onkyo/TX-NR708-7.2-Channel-3-D-Ready-Network-A/V-Receiver/1.html
New receivers come out about every year, so check the features you need. Last years model TX-SR707 can be had for $400 refurb:
http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/ONKTXSR707/Onkyo/TX-SR707-Thx-Select2-Plus-100-watts-channel-7.2-Receiver/1.html

 

[Pyrrho]

Thank you Pyrroh for the great help! Getting slightly off topic, how do ohms work?

For practical purposes, there are several things worth knowing.

First, the impedance of a speaker tells you nothing about how it sounds. A low impedance speaker may sound great or terrible or anything in between, and a high impedance speaker may sound great or terrible or anything in between. However, there are quite a few great speakers that are fairly low impedance, and this is often the case because people who can afford them can afford to buy a good amplifier, so the designer need not worry too much about what impedance the speaker ends up being. A good designer of budget speakers will, however, be more constrained in choosing things, as it would be quite silly to design a budget speaker that is insensitive and 1 ohm nominally, as it would take a pretty expensive amplifier to be able to deal with it.

The impedance is an electrical characteristic of the speaker. Its importance lies in matching the speaker with an appropriate amplifier. In general, the lower the impedance, the greater the difficulty in driving it, but there are amplifiers designed to drive low impedance speakers with ease.

Impedance is opposition to alternating current (audio signals are alternating current). It is called "impedance" rather than "resistance" because it varies with frequency. Thus, a speaker may be 8 ohms at 1000 Hz and 6 ohms at 5000 Hz. A graph, called an impedance curve, can represent the impedance of a speaker at every relevant frequency (they don't typically measure the impedance at 500,000 Hz as that is irrelevant to audio gear). When a manufacturer gives a speaker a "nominal" impedance rating, it is supposed to be that, overall, one can consider the speaker that impedance. However, as I mentioned before, some speaker manufacturers are not good about this, as they like to put "8 ohms" on them so that people who have amplifiers that are rated for 8 ohms minimum will still buy them. So some manufacturers who have no scruples or morals will put that "nominal 8 ohms" label on a speaker that has a dip in the impedance curve of, say, 4 ohms at 80 Hz. That is not good, because the demands on the amplifier will be greater than the unwary buyer is likely to realize. And that is why it is good to find the minimum impedance. With a nominal 8 ohm speaker, typically it will be okay if the minimum impedance is one or two ohms lower, but it should not be dramatically lower, if one is going to use it with an amplifier rated for 8 ohms minimum. Really good companies are careful about such things. (I don't know what their current policy is, but McIntosh used to have a policy that their nominal impedance ratings for their speakers would be such that they never had a minimum impedance lower than 10% less than the nominal rating, or in other words, no lower than 7.2 ohms for a nominally 8 ohm speaker. That is the sort of policy that a good company will have, but evil lying bastards abound in business, so you should try to find a professional review in which they measured the speaker to find out the minimum impedance of whatever speaker you are considering [some manufacturers also state the minimum impedance of a speaker, and then you need not find a review for this information]. And pay attention to which companies are liars about this sort of thing for future use, in case you can't find a review of the particular model in question, to have some idea of which companies are not generally trustworthy.)


Back to the first point I made, the very best sounding speakers that I have ever owned (which also have the most expensive retail price of any speaker I have ever owned) are 3 ohms nominally (with no dramatically low dips in the impedance curve; an honest company, at least about this model), which require a good quality amplifier to drive them. I use them in my main 2 channel system. But the second best sounding speakers that I have ever owned are 8 ohms nominally (with no dramatically low dips in the impedance curve; another honest company, at least about this model), and I use them in my home theater.

When auditioning speakers, you can ignore the impedance issue. But when you finally select whatever speakers you think sound best in your price range, then you need to research the impedance of them to find out what sort of amplification you need. The louder you like your music, the more it will matter, and the more insensitive the speaker, the more it will matter. If you never push things hard, you can probably just "trust" the nominal ratings of impedance and be done with it, but if you do like to play things loud, you had better make sure there are no nasty dips in the impedance curve that your amplifier will struggle with. Either that, or you need to just spend a fortune on a great amplifier that can deal with any speaker ever made, but that is not a very cost effective approach, and would not work well with your budget (or most other budgets).

So, audition speakers without concerning yourself with such things, and then after deciding which speakers you like best, do the relevant research. With listening to speakers, you may very well like two or three models of speakers more or less equally, in which case you may want to research all of them, in case one of them is really out of your price range due to impedance issues that will require a greater investment in amplification.

If you are lucky, you will end up liking speakers that are very sensitive (i.e., will output high volume with low power) and are an honest 8 ohms nominally (which will be compatible with pretty much every amplifier ever made). But unless you listen at volumes loud enough to permanently damage your hearing, or have a huge room (like an auditorium), this is not going to be necessary, and a speaker of ordinary sensitivity will be fine with pretty much any decent receiver you can buy.

 

[Cygnus]

Thank you guys for all the excellent info on impedance etc. A lot of receivers at Accessories4less only ship inside the US and not out , which is a problem for me because I live in Canada.

 

[GranteedEV]

Speakers - I'd say go to the Axiom factory outlet and choose
2x Axiom M22
1 VP150
2x QS8

especially good since it's free shipping in Canada and with 5 items you get a discount

Total: $1,277.00 USD - slightly over your budget but not overly so especially if...

Receiver:

Marantz SR6004 Factory Refurb from accessories4less

Total: 649.99 + shipping/GST (under budget and it's a great receiver)

TV - look around for a Panasonic G20 if you can. It's a bit above the budget you stated but maybe future shop can give you a decent discount. In general, i'd say a mid-level plasma is the best deal, either by samsung or panasonic.

BluRay player - just go with a PS3 unless 3D Blu Ray is important, in which case also change the receiver to a Marantz SR5005, which you'll now have to buy from an authorized dealer IN canada. Of course... on that note, you'd probably want to throw your TV budget out the window so stick to 2D lol!

Thank you guys for all the excellent info on impedance etc. A lot of receivers at Accessories4less only ship inside the US and not out , which is a problem for me because I live in Canada.

I live in Calgary, and they had no problem shipping me an SR6003 (the year-before model of what i reccomended). they fedex air delivered it for around 70 dollars, and there was around a 35 dollar G.S.T./customs charge when it got here (if fedex or UPS to canada, ALWAYS use either air delivery or do a customs self clear, otherwise ground shipping will slap a 50+ dollar brokerage charge on when it arrives...)