Bluray for DTS-HD and Dolby TrueHD

Q

qbattersby

Audiophyte
Hi all,

I am new here however I have been spending quite a lot of time reading and researching. My question I am hoping some of you can weigh in on is this: Should I buy a Bluray player and start a collection of Blurays. (or alternatively build an HTPC to play Blurays)

I would like to give a bit of background first to help you understand my situation.

My current setup is new for me, I spent some time upgrading from a HTIB to individual components. It is certainly not high-end but definitely an upgrade from my earlier setup. Here is the rundown (opinions welcome);

Denon 1513 AVR
Yamaha NS-515F Towers (I think I got a deal at $80 for the pair, mint condition)
Yamaha NS-C444 Center
Yamaha NS-333 Rears
Paradigm PDR-10 (hand me down, free!)

I spent some time reading on how to set it all up and bought an SPL meter to do a calibration so I think I am ok in that regard. Everything sounds great!

I currently stream videos in various formats from my AppleTV (I have done Dolby Digital and DTS audio and they sound great), additionally my Rogers HD DVR (Canada) does Dolby Digital and it sounds great as well. I have also tried hooking up my 2012 MacBook Pro with Retina Display via HDMI and tried playing some test files that are DTS-HD and TrueHD but they only show up as Multi In on my receiver (this could be because I have an older HDMI cable, not sure if it is 1.4 or not/or it could be that I couldn't properly get it to bitstream through VLC or MplayerX).

So really, after that mouthful, my question is does DTS-HD and TrueHD sound a whole lot better than DTS for example? Will I notice a difference? Should I maybe try buying a newer HDMI cable first and see if I can get bitstreaming working and the HD lights on my receiver turn on?

Just trying to figure out whether this is worth my money, and the convincing of the wife to spend even more money. :S

Any help is greatly appreciated.
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
To start off, if your receiver has HDMI and can extract those formats, you're already past third base and sliding into home plate.

Visually, Blu-ray is a noticeable improvement over DVD's and blu-ray players are pretty much a commodity nowadays and even plebeian players offer Internet apps like Pandora, Netflix, and a multitude of others. My widdle Sony 390 ($120 or so at Best Buy) does everything I mentioned, and then some.

As for the sound, there is a difference but it's more in the mix than the format.

They also play and up-convert plain old DVD's as well.

So, I guess my question is, since there's no downside to having a blu-ray player, why don't you have one already? :)
 
G

Grador

Audioholic Field Marshall
A newer cable will not help, your cable is fine. This leaves three possibilities: the software is not set properly, or is not capable of handling HD audio, or the HDMI audio on a mac book is not capable of bitstreaming HD audio. Right now I would need to do more research to tell you which it is.

Most software that is incapable of handling HD formats will simply fall back to non-HD, and will then bitstream that, so I'd care to guess the software is not properly configured.

Even if you aren't capable of bitstreaming HD you can still have your software decode and send it multichannel PCM with no loss.

As for player vs htpc, I'm a big fan of htpcs, and if you're technically inclined and willing to put time into it is probably the better option. That said there are downsides. Getting a proper setup can take a while. If you buy a disk or a friend brings one over it is a bit more work to play it RIGHT NOW. If there are other people living with you they may find it excessively difficult to use a computer to play movies (no one else in my house can use my htpc to save their lives).
 
Q

qbattersby

Audiophyte
Thanks for the input, the real question is though, will I actually notice much of a difference between DTS/DD and DTS-HD and TrueHD?

I am not too concerned about building the HTPC (used to be a tech) or the family being able to use it, I could run XBMC which I have used before.

I did a fair bit of researching on bitstreaming from VLC and MplayerX and as far as I can tell, I had it configured correctly, I could be wrong but it wasn't really self explanatory. (If there is a simple way, I am open to hearing it)
 
G

Grador

Audioholic Field Marshall
Gotcha, yeah slightly misunderstood the question, I defer to Mark's wisdom.
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
I certainly notice a difference between lossless LPCM, TrueHD or DTS-HD Master Audio soundtracks vs. the Dolby Digital or DTS version found on a DVD. But it is not a massive difference. And it somewhat depends on the quality of your audio system as to how noticeable the difference will be.

I find the difference to be the most obvious in the bass, which, as pointed out, is largely due to the mix and sound editing as much as it is due to the lossless audio format. But there is additional clarity and realism in the higher frequencies as well. It really stands out most in live concert Blu-rays and Blu-rays that focus on music, where extra attention was paid to the audio.

It's a little bit hard to explain in text :eek: I wouldn't say the improvement in the sound is as obvious or large as the improvement in the picture quality going from DVD to Blu-ray. Dolby Digital and DTS are already capable of sounding pretty good. Like I say, it's mostly just added clarity and realism. Perhaps the best way to put it is that once you get used to the higher quality audio, you notice it more when you try to go back and listen to the lossy DD or DTS version. Going from DVD to Blu-ray, you might not think there's much of a difference at first. But once you get used to the HD Audio, and then you go back, that's when you notice the difference the most.

However, I can still enjoy a DD or DTS audio track. I can't say the same for the lesser picture quality. I've become a Blu-ray snob, and I can't really enjoy anything less than HD. I honestly don't understand how people tolerate Netflix or Amazon :p Vudu HDX is really the only decent streaming option.

My personal opinion is that the best value lies in backing up your Blu-rays (and any other content) to a central storage on your network. That storage could be a NAS server, a Home Server, or just a PC or Mac that you always leave on and is connected to as much hard drive storage as possible. You will need a computer with a Blu-ray drive in order to back up your Blu-ray discs in the first place. If you're sticking with Mac, you can use MakeMKV to create MKV backups of your Blu-ray and DVD discs. If you have a Windows PC, you have other options, such as AnyDVD HD, which will let you make perfect 1:1 image or disc folder backups if you want that instead of MKV files.

You then have a number of options for playback devices. The Dune HD players and Popcorn Hour are both good options for playing back virtually any file format. You can connect storage directly to them, or have them access content via your network from a NAS, Home Server or just a PC/Mac with file sharing.

The Boxee Box is a less expensive alternative that can also playback most file types, including MKV versions and straight ISO 1:1 backups.

The Dune and Popcorn Hour both cost about as much as a HTPC that you could build yourself. Personally, I went the route of just building an HTPC for each of my displays. I like the look of Windows Media Center, and there are plenty of options for Blu-ray playback software that integrates seamlessly. The other factor is getting metadata for your collection of backups. With a Windows HTPC, you can use MyMovies or Media Browser. The various set top boxes have their own options for organizing the look of your collection of files.

So lots of options. I prefer full 1:1 backups so that I still get the disc menus, BD-Live features, special features, zero chance of any loss in quality, and never any issues with 3D or HD-Audio playback. So using HTPCs made sense for me, but that was just my personal decision at the time. I haven't used the other options enough to say whether I'd go a different route if I were to do it all over again! I'm sort of stuck with my chosen path at this point :p

Anywho, I far prefer not having to use physical discs except for the one time when I back them up to my NAS. It's just plain cool to launch Windows Media Center on any of my displays and have my entire library of discs right there with pretty box art :D I've managed to make it pretty easy for guests or girlfriends to use my setup. I just use Harmony Remotes, WMC remote IR dongles and each HTPC only ever "sleeps" and "wakes" straight into WMC. If, for any reason someone closes WMC and goes back to the desktop, one press of "the green button" and they're back in WMC. Using MyMovies for metadata, all of my content is split into "Movies", "Television" and "Music". WMC has plug-ins for some of the more popular streaming services, but it does come up short in that regard. And while I could obviously just launch a browser and stream from any website, that part is not "living room friendly" and basically demands a keyboard & mouse. I use an app on my iPhone or iPad to make them into a virtual trackpad and keyboard. But for guests, I far prefer to just use the Harmony remotes and set it up so that if they want to watch something from my physical collection, it loads that through the HTPC, while if they want to stream something, I'll do that through a separate set top box with apps that are better designed for a living room experience. I just use my Xbox360 for streaming, to be honest :eek:

Anyways, the Boxee Box might actually be the cheapest and easiest playback device. My only question mark, since I haven't used it, is what the interface looks like in terms of showing you your full collection. It'll play MKV or ISO files just fine, including all HD Audio formats now. So yeah, backup all your discs to a NAS, Home Server or a network shared computer, then maybe use a Boxee Box as your playback device. It'll access your network, pull the disc backups from your NAS, and play them back for you on your TV. Plus, it has pretty much all the major streaming services apps, and it has a full web browser as well. So pretty darn complete for under $200! I'm just not sure how pretty your collection will look :p
 
Q

qbattersby

Audiophyte
First Reflection, thanks for this input.

I appreciate you trying to explain the difference in words, it was helpful, although probably not the best way to understand the difference. Perhaps I will venture to bitstream some sort of HD Audio to my system.

Additionally, all of your feedback on an HTPC is helpful. I didn't go into much of this in my original post, but I have a similar setup running right now;

I have an AppleTV 2 (jailbroken) hooked up via HDMI and I am running PLEX on it which streams all of my "backed up" media from my server in the basement (the server is actually a PC running OSX Server, which is helpful for my other systems in the house as we have 2 MacBooks, an iMac, 2 iPhones and an iPad). Currently most of my media had been converted to play on an non-jailbroken AppleTV so all MP4 with AAC audio in a mix of 2.0 and 5.1, so definitely very lossy. Since jailbreaking the AppleTV I have ventured to have only MKVs ripped from Blurays with DTS audio which sound and look great. I can certainly agree with you on being a Bluray snob, I predominately only watch HD video. As for Netflix and other streaming services, I haven't found Netflix's HD to be that bad, not the same as a high quality "backup" but close. Perhaps this is attributed to my connection speed as I know the quality is dependent on that and currently I have a 50Mbps (down) connection.

I have tried both WMC (ages ago) and I owned a Boxee Box at one point which I bought for the bedroom, however, I hated the interface coming from an Apple TV in the living room so I returned it for an AppleTV. Hearing it can bitstream HD Audio though makes me regret my decision slightly, anyhow, I think going to a dedicated HTPC may be my best route, plus it would be fun to build. I would definitely want to be doing 1:1 backups.

*As a side note, PLEX has been fantastic as an option on the AppleTV as it pulls in all the meta data, plus with Television series' it actually will play the corresponding theme song when you are browsing a respective series, definitely impressive for visitors! You should take a look - I am not sure if it bitstreams the audio on a HTPC but I would presume so. Currently it does not on my AppleTV as far as I know due to limitations with the actual hardware.

Thanks for all the feedback - any opinions on my setup? I know it is low-mid range, but alas, the yammy speakers sound great to my ears, especially for the price I paid.
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
You're most welcome!

I think you've got a pretty great entry-level speaker system there. And certainly can't be beat for the super low price you paid for it! I mean, a free subwoofer? How can you top that value? lol

But yeah, Yamaha actually makes very decent speakers in the low price ranges, and their high end, expensive speakers are very good as well. Paradigm's subs are good - not always the absolute highest value given what some of the internet direct subwoofer companies are offering at lower price points. But for free? Heck yeah! The Paradigm subwoofers themselves are good units.

Obviously, if you happen to have a bunch of cash at some point in the future, and you really want to upgrade your speakers and subwoofer, there ARE better speakers and subs to be had. But for now, I'd say you've done very well for yourself on that front :)

I'm certainly a big fan of Denon receivers. I favor Audyssey rather strongly when it comes to the various auto-setup/room EQ programs that are out there. So that tends to mean that I prefer Denon, Marantz and Onkyo/Integra as far as receiver brands go. In the lower price range, I'm just a huge, huge fan of getting a "refurbished" Denon AVR-1712 from accessories4less.com . That is, hands down, just the best deal out there in terms of a lower cost receiver at the moment. It's going to be a real shame once that model is sold out! :eek:

The AVR-1712 was a bit strange, to be honest. It had Audyssey MultEQ XT, which is the 2nd highest "level" of Audyssey, and just unheard of at this $240 price point. In fact, the "step up" AVR-1912 model took a "step down" to Audyssey MultEQ - the 3rd highest "level" of Audyssey. So yeah, the 1712 was a bit of an odd duck :p What the 1712 completely lacked were any network features or built-in iPod connection. But at such a low price point, I figure it's certainly easy enough to add an iPod dock, and Network/iPod dock or an AppleTV or other set top streaming box!

For a "step up" receiver model, I really like the Onkyo TX-NR709 at $450 from accessories4less . The 709 also has Audyssey MultEQ XT. And in one of the strangest moves I've ever seen, the replacement 2012 model from Onkyo - the TX-NR717 - tumbled all the way down to Audyssey's 4th and lowest "level" of 2EQ. Just bizarre :confused:

What really makes the 709 a standout in my view though is that it is, by far, the least expensive receiver that offers full pre-outs for all 7 speakers plus the subwoofer. Having those 7 speaker pre-outs means that it is possible to add separate, more powerful amplification in the future. Without the pre-outs, you are limited to the internal amps that are built into the receiver.

By the time you're ready to upgrade from the AVR-1513 though, things will have changed and there will be new models of AV Receivers to consider ;) Right now though, it's a bit funny that these "refurbished"/clearance 2011 models are not only less expensive, but also more feature rich than their 2012 replacements! That makes them stand out deals in my view. It'll be interesting to see how long they remain available.

As for the network setup, back when I was putting my system together, the Boxee Box wasn't even available, and neither was the Dune HD player. The Popcorn Hour was available to order, but there were long wait times, and its price was just as high as building HTPCs! So that had a lot to do with why I went the HTPC and WMC route.

The other thing though is that I wanted 3D playback, I wanted HD Audio playback, I still wanted to be able to access BD-Live if I wanted to, and for all those reasons, an HTPC just made the most sense! Backing up full 1:1 ISO files, using Virtual CloneDrive to mount them, and playing them inside WMC using ArcSoft TotalMedia Theatre gives me an experience that is completely identical to just putting a physical disc in a Blu-ray player or Blu-ray drive in my PC, which is exactly what I want. But not everybody wants that. Some folks far prefer to have just the movie, with no extras, no BD-Live, no menus, etc. And for those folks, MKV backups make a lot more sense. And with MakeMKV now, it's possible to make those MKV versions with the HD Audio intact. So there are just a lot more options now.

HD Audio and 3D tend to be the trickiest bits though, as not all set top box solutions support those features. The other factor is the way HD Audio is handled.

The simplest way to understand it is that any TrueHD or DTS-HD soundtrack will eventually be decoded into multi-channel PCM at some point. But it's just a matter of where that decoding takes place.

The biggest problem is that if the decoding takes place inside the Blu-ray player or the PC, it isn't always easy to tell if the player/PC is actually decoding the full, lossless TrueHD or DTS-HD track, or if it's defaulting to the "core", lossy Dolby Digital or DTS audio track! To me, that's the biggest reason I think most people prefer to send the bitstream to their AV Receiver, and have the receiver handle the decoding. When that Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD Master Audio logo lights up on the front of the receiver, there's no questions or doubts as to which audio stream you're hearing! When you just get a multi-channel PCM signal from the Blu-ray player or PC, it's still possible to have doubt. So I get that concern :eek:

You seem to be well invested into an Apple ecosystem. Truth be told, I'm really not familiar with Blu-ray playback using Apple devices. Apple has never really supported Blu-ray, so it's all up to 3rd party software, and I'm just not educated on that front :eek:

It's pretty easy and cheap to build Windows 7 HTPCs though. Sandy Bridge Core i3 CPU, H61 chipset mobo, 2x2GB DDR3 1333 RAM, 60GB SSD to hold OS and software, Blu-ray drive if you want the option to still play physical discs, or for your ripping machine, mATX case with as little as 150Watt power supply, WiFi and/or Bluetooth USB dongles if you need/want them for wireless, keyboard + mouse for setup, WMC Remote with USB IR dongle for control, and $20 for a Windows 7 Home Premium Genuine Product Key . The whole shebang can be had for under $400. You also have the option to add an Over-the-Air or CableCard TV tuner and make your HTPC into a DVR.

From there, it's just a matter of accessing your backup files. I'm not sure how that might work using your current OSX home server. You certainly always have the option to add some simple NAS servers though, which could be easily accessed by any computer on your network. I'm a big, big fan of Synology for NAS servers. The DS411j is a great, relatively inexpensive 4-bay NAS unit. Not the fastest by any means, but perfectly sufficient to serve up multiple HD streams at once :) Throw four 3TB hard drives in there and you're off to the races!

Anywho, there might be an even better Apple solution, but I'm just not familiar with it. I like the HTPC setup for its simplicity in terms of the playback experience. With 1:1 ISO backups, the experience is exactly the same as playing a physical disc, and I like that :) No features missing, no worries about 3D or HD Audio compatibility. And it's a full PC, so you can always upgrade it, add new software, add new codecs, or just go to any website in the browser. It's not necessarily always the most elegant, but strictly for playing back discs, I think it's the most seamless experience :)
 
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