Big trouble, need lotsa help please.

[Davemcc]

I don't know where to start so this may get long - sorry. Please read below and ask any questions you think may need to be answered.

In the past week, I finally got the last components to finish my system (yes I know it's never finished). Over the weekend, I got my new rack and installed for the first time the following - Rotel RMB-1075 (5ch amp), Escient Fireball SE80(music server) and Panamax M5300-EX(power center) to my existing components - Denon AVR-2307CI, Cambridge Audio DV89, Motorola STB, Samsung TV and both SVS and HSU subs. Replaced components were a power strip and McIntosh MC2105 2ch amp.

OK, so I wired in all the cables, etc and confirmed that everything is working as it should, but never really had time to sit and REALLY test it, what with loading 250 CDs into the Escient, programming the Harmony remote and farting around with HP trying to get the S/PDIF function on the laptop working. Oh, and that pesky job that's got me working midnights 7 days a week right now.

OK, so I know there's a weak spot in the system. It's all plugged into a single outlet (more on that later, don't get ahead of me) So just now, I invited a neighbor over to check out the finished system and put in the Cannon fight in Master and Commander. I set the volume quite high. Cannons go off, but I don't feel anything so I'm like "Whoa neighbor, there's something wrong here." My first thought was of the power situation, which I didn't think was that bad because I ran the system off this circuit before with the MC2105 with no trouble and it sounded awesome.

So I ran an extension cord to a direct 15amp line in the kitchen and plugged in the SVS to that and turned off the HSU (and unplugged the audio cables daisy chained from the Denon out to SVS and out to HSU) to take some of the load off the circuit. Played the scene again and same disappointment. Plugged the SVS back into the wall (system circuit) and plugged the Denon and Rotel into the Kitchen circuit. No joy on that try either. Turned up the SVS past 50% gain (unheard of) and still no better bass.

I've had some trouble with HDMI on the Cambridge player, so I switched out the HDMI for DVI and coax. Still no better. I rechecked all my connections on the Denon preouts and they were all correct and tight. So now the Rotel and Denon are powered from the kitchen on a separate, dedicated circuit and the SVS, Cambridge and TV are the only things on the system's circuit and it sounds awful. No power is run through the Panamax. The SVS is clearly working but has no punch even at an un-Godly gain level and there's no crispness to the mains (like when the splinters and shrapnel from the cannonballs rattle through the ship).

Here's where it also gets weird. While testing out the power supply issues, the Denon, which normally has a master power setting at +8db decides that it won't go over +4.5db and it won't let me adjust the subwoofer level over +0.5db, which normally goes to +12db. I've found since installing the Rotel that I have to run the volume higher than I did when using the McIntosh and using the internal Denon amp for center and surrounds, so that didn't seem abnormal until the Denon suddenly removed these options. Some sort of system protection, perhaps?

The strangest thing I can't explain is that when I paused the player and turned up the volume, there was noise in all 5 speakers and both subs. It sounds like a strong winter wind blowing across a field, like a constant whistling, whoosh. I don't know exactly how to describe it, but with no source on, the subwoofer driver vibrates and all the other speakers have this "wind noise" when the volume is turned up.

Man, I thought I was done, but it's one step forward, two steps back. I can't even watch a movie loud. Oh, and loud music also sounds bad now too.

 

[MDS]

Here's where it also gets weird. While testing out the power supply issues, the Denon, which normally has a master power setting at +8db decides that it won't go over +4.5db and it won't let me adjust the subwoofer level over +0.5db, which normally goes to +12db. I've found since installing the Rotel that I have to run the volume higher than I did when using the McIntosh and using the internal Denon amp for center and surrounds, so that didn't seem abnormal until the Denon suddenly removed these options. Some sort of system protection, perhaps?

The maximum number on the volume display will change when the channel trims are adjusted. Did you calibrate the new system after everything was hooked up?

I assume you are using the pre-outs of the Denon to feed the Rotel amp. It could be that the gain setting on the amp is too low and that is one reason the channel trims has to be adjusted upward. It could also be that the Denon isn't supplying enough voltage for the Rotel amp to achieve its rated power.

 

[Davemcc]

The maximum number on the volume display will change when the channel trims are adjusted.

This is something I did not know.

Did you calibrate the new system after everything was hooked up?

I haven't had a chance yet to do a proper calibration. I've just adjusted levels by ear, but the subs are basically as they were in the system's previous configuration.

I assume you are using the pre-outs of the Denon to feed the Rotel amp. It could be that the gain setting on the amp is too low and that is one reason the channel trims has to be adjusted upward.

The Rotel has no gain setting. Maybe I should not have been responsible and gotten the killer amp, Rotel 1095, in the first place.

It could also be that the Denon isn't supplying enough voltage for the Rotel amp to achieve its rated power.

I think this may be the likely culprit for this issue, but I'll have to add the technical aspect of this to my learning curve to figure it out. I should add that I can max out the Denon's volume without clipping the Rotel, so this is very likely.

What's really burning me is what happened to my bass performance. It's like it's just gone. Or possibly something strange like the subs are getting a full range signal instead of LFE? I don't know how that could happen, but that's almost what it sounds like.

 

[MTNbike]

Don't fret about the power too much for now.

If you have a decent power conditioner you should be fine. Most amps get the surge capacity from the capacitor banks. Those are being charged stedily. The first time you trip your 15 amp breaker then start hunting for more power.

Buzzing sounds... first check for a ground loop. Second reconsider any dimmer switches. Although I have several cheapy home depot dimmer switches installed through the house, and my electrostatic speakers remain whisper quiet.

I run a sunfire amp, innersound speakers, and sunfire true sub yes the 2700 watt tiny box, and a pioneer elete large screen tv. I have had guests almost leap over the back of the couch when the ape in plannet of the apes started pounding on the glass! All on one 15 amp plug via a cinepro power box and a in series surge suppressor.

I cant wait to get my statement D1 that is on it's way.

By the way, how can I post my Sherwood AVP9080 R on this site.

Happy hunting.
Boyd

 

[Davemcc]

I fixed a ground loop issue and use a cable ground isolater. This is a very different, strange sound like a strong wind whistling across a field during a storm. With no source playing, I could feel the subwoofer driver moving and hear sound through all other five speakers. Anyway, this issue seems to have fixed itself (for now) as I just tried turning up the volume with no source playing and the system is dead quiet, as it should be. But I wish I could figure out what caused it so if it happens again, I can fix it.

I'm also used to guests having a similar reaction with the way I had the system hooked up previously, all on the single 15 amp outlet. Quite frankly, I don't know exactly what's happened to my bass performance. As of right now, the Rotel and SVS are running on separate circuits and the problem still exists. Really, nothings changed as far as sub's setup with the changes to the system. That's the part I don't get.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I'm also used to guests having a similar reaction with the way I had the system hooked up previously, all on the single 15 amp outlet. Quite frankly, I don't know exactly what's happened to my bass performance. As of right now, the Rotel and SVS are running on separate circuits and the problem still exists. Really, nothings changed as far as sub's setup with the changes to the system. That's the part I don't get.

What happens when you run the internal test tones, does the sub play as loud as before?
Did you go through the receiver and see where all your settings are, LFE on?
Are you using digital audio out from the DVD player? Is the receiver displaying 5.1 audio received or some such display?
Checked all settings on the sub? Do the subs need a Y adaptor to make them operate?
Test disc?

 

[Davemcc]

What happens when you run the internal test tones, does the sub play as loud as before?
Did you go through the receiver and see where all your settings are, LFE on?
Are you using digital audio out from the DVD player? Is the receiver displaying 5.1 audio received or some such display?
Checked all settings on the sub? Do the subs need a Y adaptor to make them operate?
Test disc?

I ran the internal tones this morning and everything seemed to set up just fine. It set the sub level at -6.5db, using both subs set up as usual (low level into SVS from sub-out, low level output from SVS to HSU).

I believe that every setting is set correctly and the system is operating normally. I've done a ton of checking, retesting, rewiring in alternate formats, isolating and substituting components and just in general, checking every possible setting and component for an error.

I am convinced that it is the SVS that is on the fritz. Here's how I figured it out. I disconnected the subs from the system and ran a long RCA from the living room to the bedroom and hooked up to the sub out of my Denon AVR-686S, then played a radio station simultaneously in the bedroom and the living room. This way, the 2307 played the living room mains and the 686 played the living room subs with the same source. I hooked up that RCA to first the HSU by itself, then the SVS by itself. In this back to back format, the HSU at 1/3 gain outperformed the SVS even when I set the SVS well over 1/2 gain. When I set the SVS to it's normal gain, around 1/3, it is practically inaudible when the room should be shaking. Because the HSU works as it should on the 686, I've ruled out the 2307 sub output and the HSU as the problem.

The only component I can find that is not working as it should is the SVS.

I want to thank everybody for their time and effort on my behalf as I ponder my next move.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I ran the internal tones this morning and everything seemed to set up just fine. It set the sub level at -6.5db, using both subs set up as usual (low level into SVS from sub-out, low level output from SVS to HSU).

I believe that every setting is set correctly and the system is operating normally. I've done a ton of checking, retesting, rewiring in alternate formats, isolating and substituting components and just in general, checking every possible setting and component for an error.

I am convinced that it is the SVS that is on the fritz. Here's how I figured it out. I disconnected the subs from the system and ran a long RCA from the living room to the bedroom and hooked up to the sub out of my Denon AVR-686S, then played a radio station simultaneously in the bedroom and the living room. This way, the 2307 played the living room mains and the 686 played the living room subs with the same source. I hooked up that RCA to first the HSU by itself, then the SVS by itself. In this back to back format, the HSU at 1/3 gain outperformed the SVS even when I set the SVS well over 1/2 gain. When I set the SVS to it's normal gain, around 1/3, it is practically inaudible when the room should be shaking. Because the HSU works as it should on the 686, I've ruled out the 2307 sub output and the HSU as the problem.

The only component I can find that is not working as it should is the SVS.

I want to thank everybody for their time and effort on my behalf as I ponder my next move.

Do you have an SPL meter? If not you need one.
Run the internal test tones in the main setup and hook up only one of the subs and see what it takes to match levels with the other speakers.
Then check the other sub and see what it takes.

You indicated the second sub was connected from the first sub's out, correct? What is that output on the first sub? Perhaps you may want to try a Y splitter at the receiver and one cable to each sub, as an experiment?

I wouldn't be too concerned with the subs setting to produce output.
Also, try a good DVD to demo the output, not the radio station.

 

[Davemcc]

Do you have an SPL meter? If not you need one.
Run the internal test tones in the main setup and hook up only one of the subs and see what it takes to match levels with the other speakers.
Then check the other sub and see what it takes.

You indicated the second sub was connected from the first sub's out, correct? What is that output on the first sub? Perhaps you may want to try a Y splitter at the receiver and one cable to each sub, as an experiment?

I wouldn't be too concerned with the subs setting to produce output.
Also, try a good DVD to demo the output, not the radio station.

mtrycrafts,

You're on the right track. I've done a series of A/B tests back to back between the Hsu and SVS individually to see what differences it takes to produce similar outputs. I haven't pulled out the Avia and SPL yet because the A/B tests clearly reveal that the SVS is deficient as compared to the Hsu. And the day that an STF-3 outperforms a PB12-Plus is the day that the Plus is broken.

Using the second receiver was simply to confirm that the subwoofer output of the main receiver was not the source of the problem and using the radio was just a way of synchronizing outputs of the main speakers in the living room and the second receiver driving the living room subs from the bedroom.

I've begun correspondence with Tom V. and we're working to figure it all out. I have no doubt that this bad boy will be it's own bad self before long.

Thank you for your continued interest. I'll keep you posted as I find out more.

 

[Davemcc]

Just an update on this issue - There is a replacement amplifier for the PB12-Plus on the way already. I have to say that this is a remarkable turnaround time for a warranty issue. I found the issue Wed., contacted SVS technical support and diagnosed it via e-mail and the amp shipped early Fri. morning. I've got a friend from work coming over to demo the system soon, so I need my monster in the corner to be healthy before he gets here.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Just an update on this issue - There is a replacement amplifier for the PB12-Plus on the way already. I have to say that this is a remarkable turnaround time for a warranty issue. I found the issue Wed., contacted SVS technical support and diagnosed it via e-mail and the amp shipped early Fri. morning. I've got a friend from work coming over to demo the system soon, so I need my monster in the corner to be healthy before he gets here.

One more item: The location of the subs make a difference, individually and collectively. One sub may be in a better location acoustically than the other, hence the difference. Or, the two subs are just that different.
So, without good testing and experimenting, hard to say. Maybe you want to swap sub locations and see? Move them to yet a 3rd location?

 

[Davemcc]

One more item: The location of the subs make a difference, individually and collectively. One sub may be in a better location acoustically than the other, hence the difference. Or, the two subs are just that different.
So, without good testing and experimenting, hard to say. Maybe you want to swap sub locations and see? Move them to yet a 3rd location?

I'm certain that it's not a location issue.

The SVS is sitting in the location that it's been in for roughly four months, call it position A. For a short time, I had it in the other front corner, call it B. My initial LFE sweeps of the SVS alone revealed a large 40hz spike in position A, so I moved it over to position B and found that the 40hz spike was even more pronounced to the point of becoming dangerous, like 68dB at 50 hz steadily climbing to 107dB at 40hz (uncorrected from Avia and Radio shack SPL). I moved the SVS back to position A where the spike was far less prominent and used the parametric eq to tame the spike as best as I could. The SVS has been in that position ever since and, by itself, produces tremondous bass from that location.

After reading some of the multi-sub threads in the subwoofer forum, I decided to bring the Hsu from the bedroom and placed it in position B in combination with the SVS in position A. The result was a huge improvement in bass performance. Smoother, more defined and prodigious. It also sounded more even, as if the combination of the two subs from opposite corners tamed the 40hz peak. Once I added a 2' x 4' x4" bass trap to each corner, I was in LFE nirvana. I had tight, smooth, level bass that seemed to literally envelop the room. When the cannons fired during Master and Commander, it was tight and explosive and you could feel the effect dramatically. When I tried to play that same scene in Master and Commander this week, I could barely hear the cannons go off, never mind feel them go off.

After isolating, testing or replacing every aspect and component in the system, it is only the SVS that cannot perform what it should in its regular location either by itself or in combination. The Hsu is performing normally and is useful as a reference, but whether comparing the SVS to the Hsu or to itself in its former state, it is clearly faulty. I've recommended SVS to members here a number of times based on the tremendous performance that I've experienced from my PB12-Plus and I shall continue to do so, especially given their quick reaction when I found a problem.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I'm certain that it's not a location issue.

The SVS is sitting in the location that it's been in for roughly four months, call it position A. For a short time, I had it in the other front corner, call it B. My initial LFE sweeps of the SVS alone revealed a large 40hz spike in position A, so I moved it over to position B and found that the 40hz spike was even more pronounced to the point of becoming dangerous, like 68dB at 50 hz steadily climbing to 107dB at 40hz (uncorrected from Avia and Radio shack SPL). I moved the SVS back to position A where the spike was far less prominent and used the parametric eq to tame the spike as best as I could. The SVS has been in that position ever since and, by itself, produces tremondous bass from that location.

After reading some of the multi-sub threads in the subwoofer forum, I decided to bring the Hsu from the bedroom and placed it in position B in combination with the SVS in position A. The result was a huge improvement in bass performance. Smoother, more defined and prodigious. It also sounded more even, as if the combination of the two subs from opposite corners tamed the 40hz peak. Once I added a 2' x 4' x4" bass trap to each corner, I was in LFE nirvana. I had tight, smooth, level bass that seemed to literally envelop the room. When the cannons fired during Master and Commander, it was tight and explosive and you could feel the effect dramatically. When I tried to play that same scene in Master and Commander this week, I could barely hear the cannons go off, never mind feel them go off.

After isolating, testing or replacing every aspect and component in the system, it is only the SVS that cannot perform what it should in its regular location either by itself or in combination. The Hsu is performing normally and is useful as a reference, but whether comparing the SVS to the Hsu or to itself in its former state, it is clearly faulty. I've recommended SVS to members here a number of times based on the tremendous performance that I've experienced from my PB12-Plus and I shall continue to do so, especially given their quick reaction when I found a problem.

I had a chance to help and play with a friend's two subs, 15", similar dirvers, one was a copy of the other. Two different locations, one in a corner with one wall only 2.5ft with a big opening. The other in another corner across the room, 30ft away, with about 8 ft wall before a big opening.

The listening is closer to one. The plots for each were no way similar, totally different with a couple of pretty good swings. The two together had yet a 3rd plot. No trap but a Behringer that has 12 bands that can be custom tailored. Pretty flat at 1/6th octave. Didn't try to locate at other locations, not an option.

I am just not yet convinced that the SVS is at fault, but it is a possibility.

 

[Davemcc]

I am just not yet convinced that the SVS is at fault, but it is a possibility.

I sort of wish you could be here to help diagnose the system. I think in the end, you would arrive at the same conclusion as I have.

I have a 14' x 11' room with 8' ceilings. The PB12-Plus should be able to shatter this room. Right now, I can barely get it to play loud enough to blend with my bookshelf mains.

I know that everything on the system end of the RCA subwoofer output cable is working as it should. For the last few days, I've been running the STF-3 solo and it has been performing yeoman's duty on my wife's disco collection and sounds great (notwithstanding her taste in music).

But every time I move that RCA cable from the STF-3 to the PB12-Plus, the bass disappears and I cannot find any setting or combination of settings to restore the SVS to what it was when it arrived here. All I can do is install the new amp and see if that helps.

 

[mtrycrafts]

. All I can do is install the new amp and see if that helps.

Let us know when that happens.

 

[Davemcc]

Let us know when that happens.

I have installed the new amp. Unfortunately, it behaves exactly as the original amp. It is difficult to get any volume out of the sub and when I drive up the settings to get some volume, the sound is tubby and muffled. While doing the swap, I had the driver in my hands and there was nothing obviously wrong with it, visually.

I will contact SVS again tomorrow and see what they suggest as the next step.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I have installed the new amp. Unfortunately, it behaves exactly as the original amp. It is difficult to get any volume out of the sub and when I drive up the settings to get some volume, the sound is tubby and muffled. While doing the swap, I had the driver in my hands and there was nothing obviously wrong with it, visually.

I will contact SVS again tomorrow and see what they suggest as the next step.

Not much left to do. I didn't think it was an amp issue and now you know.
Have you ran a sine wave sweep, or by each cycle and plot the spl? And at a different location? LF takes a bit of work.

 

[Davemcc]

SVS sent me a replacement driver which I installed this morning. All I can say is "Hell Yeah, that's what I'm talking about." There is a night/day, black/white, apples/oranges difference between the old driver and the replacement. The old driver was definitely pooched.

 

[Warpdrv]

SWEEEEEEEET.... Glad you and SVS figured out the problem....

Welcome to the world of Heavy Bass... Sucks when there is an initial problem, and it literally breaks a mans heart....

Im seriously dying to get some idea's of how those new SVS- Ultra 13's are going to be... I can't imagine that they won't dissapoint, but I have been tossing around a few different idea's on different subs for the future...

 

[mtrycrafts]

SVS sent me a replacement driver which I installed this morning. All I can say is "Hell Yeah, that's what I'm talking about." There is a night/day, black/white, apples/oranges difference between the old driver and the replacement. The old driver was definitely pooched.

That is interesting indeed. Did they want it back to troubleshoot it? That be an interest8ing tidbit to know what went wrong with it.