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baneling

Audioholic Intern
Hi all, for the BIC F12 (or any other sub) the phase is a switch between 0 or 180. is it safe to switch this while watching a movie?
 
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baneling

Audioholic Intern
nevermind, I already tried it. I can't tell the diff between 0 and 180. see my newer thread if you want to comment on that. thanks
 
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lewb

Audioholic Intern
nevermind, I already tried it. I can't tell the diff between 0 and 180. see my newer thread if you want to comment on that. thanks
I just got one of these Bic F12 subs, I believe if you have the 7.1,5.1 switched the LFE from the receiver controls the sub only, if the dobly pro logic is switched the phase and cross over are engaged.
 
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baneling

Audioholic Intern
I have the sub set to the 7.1, 5.1 setting, but my receiver doesn't have a setting for phase, unless its called something else. I have my crossover set to 80hz which is the lowest it will go. I have the Onkyo TNXR 646
 
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lewb

Audioholic Intern
first off I am not an expert on audio but I do enjoy researching and gaining knowledge on setting up a sound system. If you only have one sub the phase control is probably not necessary, I believe it is just a delay of the sound to eliminate issues with two subs firing at the same time. I could be wrong however. You should set your sub crossover at 120 hz. I have mine set to 200hz. What this setting does on the receiver is send sound below this frequency to your sub. The B12 range is 200 to 25hz. Setting it a 80hz is leaving some bass on the table that could be sent to the sub.

I have a B12 and a 10 inch Dayton reference sub that I did a diy in wall. The in wall sub is not an ideal location for movies as it shakes the wall (is placed at 9 ft in a 10 ft celiling above my fireplace). Music is fine as it adds to the overall bass. Now with the f12 in corner the whole room shakes when watching movies. I had to adjust the volume levels a bit to find the right balance. Right now on my Denon x2000 the sub level is -5 and I have the b12 at 5 and the Dayton at 7. I am still adjusting. I am still a little to high from the receiver.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
You should set your sub crossover at 120 hz. I have mine set to 200hz. What this setting does on the receiver is send sound below this frequency to your sub. The B12 range is 200 to 25hz. Setting it a 80hz is leaving some bass on the table that could be sent to the sub.
You seem to be talking about the LPF of LFE adjustment? Subs alone don't have "crossovers", you need speakers involved to have a crossover. If it is indeed the LPF of LFE it only affects the .1 content in source material that has such....and that content is normally limited to 120hz in any case. Not all subs would work well with a 200hz or even a 120hz crossover....the upper frequency range it can handle would need to be considered.

ps I think I misread your post, rather than being specific to the F12 sub the OP has....but that doesn't, on a second read, seem to be the case, sorry. I'd still be cautious about a 200hz crossover in any case if that's the upper limit of the sub's capabilities as the sub would still be asked to reproduce above 200hz if that is the crossover....
 
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lewb

Audioholic Intern
You seem to be talking about the LPF of LFE adjustment? Subs alone don't have "crossovers", you need speakers involved to have a crossover. If it is indeed the LPF of LFE it only affects the .1 content in source material that has such....and that content is normally limited to 120hz in any case. Not all subs would work well with a 200hz or even a 120hz crossover....the upper frequency range it can handle would need to be considered.

ps I think I misread your post, rather than being specific to the F12 sub the OP has....but that doesn't, on a second read, seem to be the case, sorry. I'd still be cautious about a 200hz crossover in any case if that's the upper limit of the sub's capabilities as the sub would still be asked to reproduce above 200hz if that is the crossover....

You are right I should have said adjust your receiver cross over to 120hz, easy to misunderstand,

as far as 200hz, I am just trying a different frequency, my other sub is rated at 25 to 1000 hz.
 
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yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
first off I am not an expert on audio but I do enjoy researching and gaining knowledge on setting up a sound system. If you only have one sub the phase control is probably not necessary, I believe it is just a delay of the sound to eliminate issues with two subs firing at the same time. I could be wrong however. You should set your sub crossover at 120 hz. I have mine set to 200hz. What this setting does on the receiver is send sound below this frequency to your sub. The B12 range is 200 to 25hz. Setting it a 80hz is leaving some bass on the table that could be sent to the sub.

I have a B12 and a 10 inch Dayton reference sub that I did a diy in wall. The in wall sub is not an ideal location for movies as it shakes the wall (is placed at 9 ft in a 10 ft celiling above my fireplace). Music is fine as it adds to the overall bass. Now with the f12 in corner the whole room shakes when watching movies. I had to adjust the volume levels a bit to find the right balance. Right now on my Denon x2000 the sub level is -5 and I have the b12 at 5 and the Dayton at 7. I am still adjusting. I am still a little to high from the receiver.
Unless you have tiny satellite speakers incapable of reproducing below 100hz I would never set a subwoofer crossover to 120 hz and definitely not 200hz. For one, large drivers with stiff suspensions are not good at reproducing higher frequencies. While driver size isn't the only factor deciding frequency response, the laws of physics still apply and most drivers are going to be optimal at reproducing certain range of octaves based on their size and weight in relation to the frequency and size of the waveform they are reproducing. Most smaller woofers are capable of reproducing frequencies up to 10khz, but start behaving erratically or breaking up/beaming past a certain point. It's why we have two way and 3 way speakers and you don't see 5" subs or 6" tweeters. Anything above 120hz is going to very likely be be distorted significantly more than it would be if it were reproduced by a driver designed to handle the upper bass octaves.

The second problem is the higher in frequency you get, the smaller the waveform, which means the sub is going to sound separate from your speakers. Below 80hz, most frequencies are significantly larger than the distance between our ears, making it difficult to localize, allowing the subwoofer to blend seamlessly with all 5-7 channels. Depending on the distance from the mains, at higher frequencies you are also likely to get comb filtering and nulls in the frequency response at the crossover point, this is usually not an issue with lower xover point because of the length of low frequencies. Keep in mind even a 24dB active crossover is not a brick wall.

Figure out what the -3dB response is from your speakers, and cross over the sub about 10hz higher.

As for the phase switch, I'd leave it alone and use the speaker distance settings on your receiver. Unless your sub is exactly opposite distance from the mains at the listening point it's likely not 180 degrees out of phase, it could be 140, 90 (if you placed your sub on a side wall for example), and getting the real phase dialed in via distance will achieve a much better result across all frequencies.

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lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Unless you have tiny satellite speakers incapable of reproducing below 100hz I would never set a subwoofer crossover to 120 hz and definitely not 200hz. For one, large drivers with stiff suspensions are not good at reproducing higher frequencies. While driver size isn't the only factor deciding frequency response, the laws of physics still apply and most drivers are going to be optimal at reproducing certain range of octaves based on their size and weight in relation to the frequency and size of the waveform they are reproducing. Most smaller woofers are capable of reproducing frequencies up to 10khz, but start behaving erratically or breaking up/beaming past a certain point. It's why we have two way and 3 way speakers and you don't see 5" subs or 6" tweeters. Anything above 120hz is going to very likely be be distorted significantly more than it would be if it were reproduced by a driver designed to handle the upper bass octaves.

The second problem is the higher in frequency you get, the smaller the waveform, which means the sub is going to sound separate from your speakers. Below 80hz, most frequencies are significantly larger than the distance between our ears, making it difficult to localize, allowing the subwoofer to blend seamlessly with all 5-7 channels. Depending on the distance from the mains, at higher frequencies you are also likely to get comb filtering and nulls in the frequency response at the crossover point, this is usually not an issue with lower xover point because of the length of low frequencies. Keep in mind even a 24dB active crossover is not a brick wall.

Figure out what the -3dB response is from your speakers, and cross over the sub about 10hz higher.

As for the phase switch, I'd leave it alone and use the speaker distance settings on your receiver. Unless your sub is exactly opposite distance from the mains at the listening point it's likely not 180 degrees out of phase, it could be 140, 90 (if you placed your sub on a side wall for example), and getting the real phase dialed in via distance will achieve a much better result across all frequencies.

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I've had good success crossing at 120 and I wouldn't call my speakers tiny satellites but I suppose that's a matter of interpretation; their f3's are in the 30s for the mains, 40s for surrounds and wides, my rear surrounds are in the 70s, though. I have four subs around the room and no localization issues. Might depend what spls you need and what your speakers/amps are actually capable of in that respect. IMHO.
 
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yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
I've had good success crossing at 120 and I wouldn't call my speakers tiny satellites but I suppose that's a matter of interpretation; their f3's are in the 30s for the mains, 40s for surrounds and wides, my rear surrounds are in the 70s, though. I have four subs around the room and no localization issues. Might depend what spls you need and what your speakers are actually capable of in that respect. IMHO.
With multiple subs placed equally around the room localization would obviously be less of an issue, however, I still fail to see what the benefit of such a high crossover point would be. You benefit from a subwoofer by having a speaker capable of producing sound below the f3 of the speakers, and by taking the load off the speakers and amps in the receiver. A ported floor standing speaker with an anechoic f3 of 40hz may very well be capable of producing a usable output in room down to 30hz. The issue with this is that below the port tuning frequency (generally around the f3), driver impedance drops rapidly, demanding large amounts of power from the amplifier. This applies to sealed boxes as well at the fs of the driver, but is much less extreme. The second problem is that below the port tuning frequency excursion of the driver is generally very large, as the port is no longer behaving as a radiator and more like a hole in the box to let air in and out. Regarding taking a load off the receiver, this is much more effective with bookshelf speakers, whose f3 may be between 50-70hz. Near or at the fs of sealed boxes, and the f3 of ported boxes, driver impedance rises rapidly, and power demands significantly drop. The f3 of a driver is the most efficient frequency of the driver, it literally almost moves itself at this frequency. Crossing it over significantly higher than the f3 offers no advantage power wise. Contrary to popular belief a majority of loudspeakers are highly efficient at low frequencies within their f3 range just like they are with high frequencies, it's mid bass, lower midrange, and frequencies below the tuning frequency of the port/f3 of a sealed box that are usually the power hungry frequencies, which is why I suggested 10hz above the f3 (as some designers are quite liberal with their LF response rating). The real reason bass is a power hog, particularly in home theater, is because of large dynamic swings.

The second advantage goes back to drivers performing best across certain octaves. Asking a single driver to produce two frequencies at many octaves apart causes distortion, with this getting worse the farther apart the octaves are. You can hear this by simultaneously playing two frequencies of the same note through one driver, for example A 0 at 27.5hz, and A 6 at 1760hz. Both A, but 7 octaves apart and generally within the crossover range of a typical two way speaker. Assuming one has a speaker capable of a response down to ~30hz, you would hear both notes, but you would also likely hear a 3rd note that is not a harmonic of A In a perfect loudspeaker, we would have a 4 way design with each driver only covering 3 octaves. Unfortunately 4 way speakers generally run into lots of problems with phase issues unless using an active crossover and precisely tuning the delay of each driver to be in perfect timing, making it too costly and too much of a headache for consumer audio.

Frequencies are not linear across octaves, from an 88hz to 11hz upper/lower limit, we are covering 3 octaves, from 88hz to 1420hz we are covering 3 octaves, which is why this problem becomes more extreme with low frequencies mixed with high frequencies. Your typical silk dome tweeter two way loudspeaker is crossed over at about 2300hz, so at an ~80hz and 2300hz crossover frequency , we are asking each driver to produce around 3.5 octaves, give or take a partial octave depending on the crossover frequencies. Not perfect, but a fair compromise. 120hz is probably okay, but setting the crossover frequency to 200hz like the other poster suggested is asking the subwoofer to produce almost 6 octaves, or half of the entire musical range. From experience playing with high crossover frequencies out of curiosity, it's going to sound like crap.


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lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
At what spls are those drivers in the speakers going to effectively poop out or have excessive distortion compared to the subs, though? I'll have to do some reading on f3 efficiencies and typical distortion levels, that the f3 is the primary power point is something I'd not latched onto before (any literature suggestions?). Agree with not using something as high as a 200hz crossover generally but wonder what he is using specifically, too.
 
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yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
At what spls are those drivers in the speakers going to effectively poop out or have excessive distortion compared to the subs, though? I'll have to do some reading on f3 efficiencies and typical distortion levels, that the f3 is the primary power point is something I'd not latched onto before (any literature suggestions?). Agree with not using something as high as a 200hz crossover generally but wonder what he is using specifically, too.
I'm confused what you're referring to, if you're referring to bass coming from the loudspeaker vs a subwoofer with a lower crossover frequency that's obviously going to depend on the speaker and crossover point and the speaker itself. Almost any medium sized bookshelf can reproduce between 80-120hz without breaking a sweat. For lower frequencies such as below 80hz, assuming the speaker is capable of full range or close to it, that will also depend. What causes distortion in low frequencies has to do with the physical characteristics of woofers vs subwoofers regarding suspension stiffness and weight. Both of these characteristics can be intentionally manipulated to adjust and optimize the frequency response of a driver, similar to how cabinet volume changes response. Woofers are generally lightweight, with medium stiff suspensions, this makes it easy for them to reproduce a broad range of frequencies. Subwoofers are heavier with much stiffer suspensions, they also generally have significantly more xmax. Bass requires a lot of movement. At 500hz, a driver is moving back and forth 500 times a second. At 50hz, 50 times a second. Even at the exact same spl this gives the driver 100x more time to extend and retract at 50hz during 1 cycle, meaning its going to travel more distance in the same amount of time. This is where suspension and weight factor into distortion and frequency response. At low frequencies, the driver must move a lot, at high frequencies, it must move very quickly, you can't get both without one or the other ends of the spectrum distorting. A lightweight driver with a looser suspension can move faster, assuming equal xmax, it too can move more and reproduce low frequencies, but lightweight drivers are typically thinner and less rigid, allowing the cone to flex as it is forced in and out over large distances, introducing distortion. This is the same distortion one gets at high volume, but this distortion becomes more readily apparent at lower spl with low frequencies. This is going to depend on the size of the woofer and the material from which it's made. Thankfully, this isn't the 70s and 80s anymore and apart from some ultra cheap htibs and all in one shelf stereos the majority of designers do not use paper cones, which are very flexible and often made thin due to weight concerns. 90% of modern day speakers use newer materials, even cheap polypropylene woofers are more rigid while being lightweight. A larger driver is going to be able to move more air with less excursion, a stiffer cone will distort less than a more flexible cone. Generally at 80hz and above a 5.25 inch woofer isn't going to see a lot of excursion.

Ported speakers should experience significantly less distortion near the port frequency because at and near the port frequency there will be almost no movement of the driver as the port will be producing most of the sound. If you've got ported speakers, play a sine wave at the f3 of the speakers and you'll notice that there is hardly any movement of the woofers. The main concern here is going to be port noise, and this will depend entirely on the diameter of the port.

Like I said, it's more likely you'll have distortion from playing the sub too high. A heavy woofer with a tight suspension is great at controlling the drivers movement and damping flex at low frequencies, it's also great at making the driver struggle to produce higher frequencies. The main reason a sub driver has extreme rolloff at high frequencies is exactly related to a stiff suspension and heavy driver. It just can't move as fast. Try playing a 120hz-200hz tone through a subwoofer at high volume then play it through your mains, decide which one sounds better. Every sub I've had has sounded worse than the speaker. Just like trying to run speakers at full range with bass, trying to run a sub at the upper end of its operating range is going to make it struggle. Unless you've got tiny speakers that begin rolling off at 100hz, 120hz or even 80hz should play just fine even at higher volume, especially if it's ported. Floor standing speakers with multiple woofers will struggle even less.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_characteristics_of_dynamic_loudspeakers
A quick Google search turns up a wiki article.

A voice coil doesn't just receive power, it can also generate it as the driver reverses in the opposite direction. In a solid state amplifier, a majority this is reduced by damping factor, this is the reason speakers have much louder (although sloppier) bass when connected to a valve amplifier, because there is little damping factor due to a higher output impedance. Solid state amplifiers aren't completely 0, but damn close. That's also one of the reasons speakers sound much flatter on solid state amps. Nevertheless, this can't be completely eradicated. At fs, a speaker resonates almost on its own in free air. Put it into a box and you get f3, which can be altered by the box or a port. A box can also produce back pressure of its own on a driver, even outside of low frequencies. Big boxes have better bass because the distance is long enough to pick up those larger wavelengths. Ports can pick up those frequencies and emit them. The reason the impedance dramatically rises at these frequencies is because of back emf on the voice coil as the resonance moves the driver on its own. At the port tuning frequency, the resonance from the port tries to push the driver in the opposite direction, creating an opposing current and increasing resistance.

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