BIC America vs BIC Acoustech Speakers

[skipsterut]

I'm a real neophyte and am just trying to buy a decent low cost set of speakers (5.1) -- trying to get the best value for about $800-900. From the reviews I have read I had pretty much settled on BIC America's DV84 package, but then I saw the BIC Acoustech system (with the HT-75 towers) from acousticsdounddesign.com for $799. I spoke to the owner and he said the BIC America DV series was obsolete and the new/better stuff is the Acoustech series.

I have looked all over the Internet and other than one really excellent review in March, 2004 (http://www.audaud.com/audaud/MAR04/component/comp1.html) of the BIC Acoustech line I can't find anything else. I have found many reviews of the BIC America DV-62 series (both bookshelf and center) and the value of Ed Frias' improved crossover. But, again, nothing other than the one review of the Acoustech series. Can you shed any light on which is the newer and/or better set of speakers? Also I'm not sure if I need all the power of such large set and could use some advice about that relative to room size, etc. I have looked on the Internet, and there is some basic info, but nothing that really helps me as my room is pretty unique as to size and configuration.

One last thing -- does Ed Frias have a modification of the crossover for the Acoustech series? Do you know how I can contact Ed directly?

Anything anyone could do to help me sort this out would be most appreciated.

 

[jaxvon]

The Acoustechs are newer, but that does not mean better. They have a different design topology than the Venturi speakers, using a hard-dome horn tweeter as opposed to a soft dome tweeter. They have a different sound. If you like the sound of Klipsch speakers, then the Acoustechs are more up your aisle.

Ed does not mod the Acoustechs, nor will he mod the DV84s (but he will do the DV64s). Here's his email:

efespeakers@commspeed.net

There are many users on here with the Acoustechs. I personally have the Venturis and really like them.

As for your room size, power, and other questions, just post your room size, and other questions and we'll do our best to help you.

Oh yeah, Welcome!

 

[brian32672]

Yeah, its funny that there is not a lot of reviews for either versions. But just do a search here. And it will give a small review of what the individuals here that own the sets think of them. I have posted a lot on the Acoustech's, as I own the entire set plus 2 extra surrounds (for 7.1) As far as the Venturi's I can not post on them, I have heard a set, but I never owned a set - to give my honest opinion.

But the Acoustech's are worth every penny of that 799.00 I would have gladly payed 1,000 for my set. And msrp (which means very little) I believe its closer to about 1,500 or 1,600. Hmm, I don't remember and don't care. They sound perfect for me. Here is a good link, that I got into the sound of them and posted about 15 pictures http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12693

Except for the sub, which I have posted pics elsewhere (actually Buckeye posted them at AVS, I will look for that link if you want)

 

[skipsterut]

Thanks very much for the quick reply. Very helpful.

One of my problems is I don't know if I like the Klipsch sound or not since I've never heard it. What is the basic difference between the dome tweeter and the horn tweeter sounds and/or the Klipsh sound vs others (e.g., BIC DV 64 or 84 series)? I kind of hate to go to an audio store and ask for a demo when I'm probably going to buy online, so I'm wasting the saleperson's time and wouldn't feel good about that.

The rave reviews I have read of Ed's mods to the xover on the BIC DV series make me think they have a pretty "bright" sound "out of the box" -- some people have commented that after a bit of "wearing in" they lose this and sttle in nicely. Others just rave about Ed's mods as the way to go.

 

[jaxvon]

The tweeters don't break in, it's just your ears getting used to the sound. And you shouldn't feel bad about hitting up a store for a little bit. You're shopping around, just make sure to tell them that. That way you won't be lying. Find a decent store with the Klipsch Reference series.

 

[skipsterut]

Thanks again -- both Jaxvon and Brian for the info and insights. Much appreciated.

I haven't bought the receiver yet, but I am thinking of the Pioneer Elite VSX-72TXV -- mainly because of its HDMI switching and upconversion as well as its good assortment of I/O options. I already have the Panasonic 42" PLasma HDTV (and love it) and I have the HD service from Comcast and the STB has DVR recording with DVI out for video and optical for audio. I have an older Pioneer 25 slot CD player that had optical out and my DVD player is a Panasonic DVR-32 that has component video and optical audio outs. Next year I will probably upgrade to a DVD recorder, but I'm waiting for the price of newer units with HDMI out to come down first. The Comcast STB with DVR will meet my needs for day to day convenience/time-shifting recording, which is what I mainly do anyway.

I also have an old JVC turntable and a collection of old vinyl that means a lot to me that I like to play every now and again. So I like the availability of the phono input on the VSX-72TXV. I know I could get a preamp for other receivers without the phono input, but since I like so many other features of VSX-72TXV the phono jack is a bonus.

Also -- I know the receiver is 7.1, but I think I'll start with a 5.1 speaker configuration since it would be pretty difficult to get speakers in the rear of the room.

Any thoughts or opinions on this configuration/strategy would be most welcomed.

 

[brian32672]

I don't find the horn tweeter to be bright at all, but I have a receiver with a EQ, so when I play with the EQ settings I get a 100% different sound, I have posted a lot about that in the link I provided. What receiver will you be using? Does it have a 5+ band EQ? Are you thinking of getting 5.1 then upgrading to 7.1?

The tweeters don't break in, it's just your ears getting used to the sound. And you shouldn't feel bad about hitting up a store for a little bit. You're shopping around, just make sure to tell them that. That way you won't be lying. Find a decent store with the Klipsch Reference series.

Jaxvon is correct, also speaker break in is more myth, there is a great link about this here at AH. All a speaker needs to break in is about 2 minutes...
EDIT:: Link for Speaker break in here - http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/audioprinciples/loudspeakers/SpeakerBreakIn.php

Also BTW, welcome to AH...


The 72:::

That receiver would be perfect. It has a 9 band EQ for each individual speaker, and I'm sure it can make any speaker set sound great.. (bright speakers can easily be tamed if you want, I by chance like a little brightness, kinda gives a realism to movies over a tamed blah or muffled sound IMO)
For those golden ear experts, please do not give me any slack on my tatse of a tad brighter sound that is not acoustical considered perfect..
It may be one of my next upgrades...(the 72tx)

Oh, IMO the super strong point of the Acoustech's is the center channel, it is excellent for dialouge.

Did you read through that first link I posted?

 

[The Dukester]

Welcome to the forum. Brian and Jax are both giving you some good info. BIC does still make the DV stuff. The Acoustecs are newer and supposedly made more for HT. The horn loaded Acoustecs will be brighter and possibly give better dynamics for HT. As for music, well it depends on your tastes and preference. You can call Klipsch and find a dealer or look one up on their website. If you have a Best Buy near you, they carry them, only not the better reference series. It will give you an idea of how they sound. If you listen to them in an A/B with most soft dome tweeter speakers (most everything else) the others will most likely sound dull at first. This is because of the brightness of the horn tweeter. Don't make a quick decision on that. Listen to both of them for several minutes and decide what you like the sound of the best. Take some CDs you are familiar with to compare the two. Remember, it's your hard earned money you are spending. Don't make a hurried decision and find out you are dissatisfied with your purchase.

I would not worry too much about taking the salesperson's time. They are there to demonstrate as well as sell product. I would never condon lying, but you don't have to start off by saying "Hey, I'm here to waste your time and not buy anything". You might just find a killer speaker he has that you will buy from him after all.
Good luck with your purchase!

 

[skipsterut]

Thanks again to Jax, Brian, Dukester and Buckeye.

I have checked out all the links, prior threads and references you provided. Very helpful and informative.

Here's my thinking at this point -- please give me your feedback.

FACT: The BIC Acoutechs (horn tweeters) are highly recommended as a super value -- sound quality per $ spent (especially for HT, but not as good for music) as well as having good aethestic design (WAF factors, although in my case she's a smaller is better "kind of gal" and doesn;t really understand the need for such a "large" system ... anyway, I digress).

FACT: The BIC America series (dome tweeters) are also highly recommended as a super value -- sound quality per $ spent (for all uses both HT and music -- with the Frias x-over mods) -- but are not as nice aesthetically as the Acoustechs -- They are older design, but not necessarily worse -- just different. The Ed Frias x-over mod is also highly recommended. Unfortunately this causes significant additional logistical issues (sending/receiving), costs and time delays.

FACT: Another thing I mentioned in my first post, but haven't followed up on, is my room size/cosfiguration. It's pretty large overall (a "great room" 25 ft x 27 ft encompassing living room, dining room and bar/drinks area - combined with a beamed cathedral ceiling (10' high at center). But even with all that size, the main emtertainment area is in a 3 sided space that is 13 ft x 24 ft with the listening position just 12 ft from the display. So balancing the speaker manually is going to present quite a challege to a newbie like me -- and I'm cheap enough to not want to pay someone to come in and do it for me.

Here's my thought -- I just read over the setup options for the Pioneer Elite VSX-72TVX receiver and I'm now more convinced than ever that it offers many advantages to me (in addition to the HDMI switching and upconversion which first attracted me). Since I'm a newbie audioholic I wouldn't know how to set up the speakers myself, but the MCACC auto setup in the receiver seems pretty powerful. Also it can be manually adjusted (tweaked) -- AND (as Brian pointed out) each channel has its own graphic equalizer -- AND I can store/recall six different speaker configurations -- completenwith equalizer settings.

With this kind of power and flexibility i the receiver I can easily adjust the sound stage characteristics and save profiles for both HT and music which I assume would let me get good sound performance out of the great BIC Acoustech speakers for BOTH HT and music. Not to mention solving (hopefully) the really complex problems presented by my unusual room geometry.

The Pioneer Elite 72 is available from E-Tronics for $889 + $36 shipping -- which based on the $1,200 (or $1,400) MSRP and compared to other prices I have seen, looks pretty good.

Please give me your feedback on the above. Thanks again.

 

[jaxvon]

I don't know about you, but with expensive electronics I like to buy from an authorized dealer so I get a warranty. I don't know how Pioneer is about theirs. I happened to get my 1015TX from Best Buy through a friend, so I got a super deal. There are some really good e-tailers though. That's my only caveat. I think for your purposes, the Acoustechs would be a better bet. Their high efficiency means you can really fill your room with sound with that receiver. The only issue now is a subwoofer. With that size of a room, you're going to need a beefy subwoofer, or two

As far as setup goes, the MCACC is pretty accurate, though to get the best sound you'll need to manually tweak. All you need to do this is an SPL meter from Radio Shack, a tripod, and some patience. Set up the tripod with the SPL meter attached in your primary listening position and play test tones. For the calibration volume, you should try for 85dB (Dolby standard). This means that at the listening position, your SPL meter should be reading 85dB for every speaker. Once you level match your system, it will "gel" much better.

For test tones, you can use the receiver, though setup DVDs like Avia and DVE (digital video essentials) will help you with your sound and video tweaking.

Lastly, don't forget to address acoustical issues. Your room and speakers have by FAR the biggest impact on your sound. A lot of people try to fix sound problems and end up bypassing the thing they started with before they bought any gear...the room! What kind of acoustics does your room have? Reflective? Dead? IE, if you clap, does it echo a lot, or just make more of a dull "thud"? What kind of floors do you have? What other things are in the room? Drywall, bookcases, etc?

One thing to note: your room will have some bass modes. That is, at certain bass frequencies, you will get tons of bass, and at others too little. This can be addressed somewhat with the placement of the subwoofer, but can be really controlled with a good parametric equalizer. Some subwoofers include an equalizer for this purpose. If you end up going for a sub(s) that does have a parametric EQ, then you might think about getting something like a Behringer Feedback Destroyer or DCX2496. These will allow you to precicely EQ your sound and make it flat (which equates to good).

Whew! That was a long post. Feel free to post some more questions (and answers to my queries, because you're bound to get them from someone sooner or later!).

 

[skipsterut]

jaxvon -- thanks for the long post. Full of great info for a newbie like me.

I have gotten off topic since I'm now asking questions about buying a receiver -- and I have also posted this in the receivers forum -- but I thought I would ask directly here as well.

I am seriously leaning towards the Pioneer TXV 72. Until the last post from jaxvon I didn't even think about the authorized dealer issues. It turns out that Pioneer has a stringent policy regarding purchase from an authorized dealer to get warranty service. I was thinking of buying onnline from etronics.com for $889 + $36 S&H = $925 delivered -- not all bad for this unit listed at $1400. But etronics.com is not an authorized dealer and I could not get Pioneer warranty service.

Although I have NEVER had anything go wrong with any electronic gear I have bought, this does make me pause. But etronics.com offers a Philips Priority Service Plan for $50 (2 years) so that would put the delivered cost at $975 vs $1,280 from a local dealer (inlcuding tax). So this is > $300 savings whic is pretty tempting, but I thought I would get some input from the group on this kind of deal and especially any expereince with the Philips Priority Service Plan. Coming from a name brand company like Philips I figure is should be OK, but would appreciate any feedback.

 

[skipsterut]

Progress

Thanks for the help so far. I'm making good progress.

I went ahead and ordered the Pioneer VSX-72TXV. Xsound sent me an e-mail recommending an online source that covers the warranty work themselves (using an authorized service center) and they pay the shipping both ways. So I decided to "take the money and run" because the price was $864 delivered vs. $1,280 from a local dealer -- over a $400 savings.

Now I'm back to the speakers. Based on all the advice in this thread -- and other threads I have reveiwed -- I am leaning VERY heavily towards the BIC Acoustechs.

But I still have a couple of questions. The BIC Acoustech fronts can not be biamped, whereas the BIC DV-64 and DV-84 can be. Is the lack of biamping capability something I should be concerned about?

The only issue now is a subwoofer. With that size of a room, you're going to need a beefy subwoofer, or two

In the quote above from jaxvon -- he mentions needing a beefy subwoofer. The BIC 100 comes with the Acoustech 5.1 set. It is a 12" with 500 watts. Here are its full specs http://www.rtrspeakers.com/acoustech%20sub.htm. This seems pretty beefy to me, but I'm a newbie and don't know any better. Should I consider just buying the 5 speakers and getting another sub? The same dealer also carries the Klipsch, Infinity, Hsu, etc. He has the HSU Research VTF-2 MK 2-Silver Logo on special for $469 (the selling price of the BIC H-100 is $245). The specs of the Hsu don't seem any "beefier" to me -- 10" at 250 watts and the BIC H-100 is 12" at 500 watts. The description of the Hsu says it's "good for medium size and smaller rooms." I'm thinking that the H-100 should fine as a start and if I really need more "oomph" I could get a second H-100 at about the same cost as the differntial to buy just one of the higher priced brands such as Klipsch or Hsu.

 

[jaxvon]

I believe the H100 only has a 150w RMS amp, 500w peak. So the Hsu has a more powerful amplifier. You have a large room, so you're going to need a serious subwoofer to fill it. Just as a shopping option, call up SVS and see what they would recommend for your room. They might be a good option. Do the same with Hsu.

Hsu: 1-800-554-0150
SVS: (703) 845-1472

The H100 would be a good start. That's for sure. But I know that you're going to want/need more to get the full effect.

 

[skipsterut]

More Follow UP

A couple of follow up things:

1. Any words of advice about whether or not biamping is worth considering when getting speakers? Pros, Cons, etc?

2. The JBL S120PII seems like a super deal. I'm still wondering if I need more power than the Acoustech H100 - 150W. I have attached is a layout of the room. (I think I have anyway, since this is the first time using this system.)

Although the room itself is large, the primary seating area is pretty compact (in the upper RH corner of the sketch.)

Thoughts???

Oh yeah I forgot a few more acoustical facts -- it's w-w carpeted trhougout with a pretty plush weave, and the right hand wall is either mostly glass (if the the curtain are open) or cloth if the curtains are closed -- they are typically partly open. I certainly don't notice any echos of things like that so I would say it's pretty absorbing in general.

 

[jaxvon]

Unfortunately, when buying a subwoofer you need to consider the entire room. I hope Brian chimes in on this, as he's worked with the H100 quite a bit.

 

[skipsterut]

With the JBL S120PII being 400 watts, I assume that handle it OK if I went that way. True??

I figure I could get the Acoustechs without the woofer for about $675 delivered and the JBL woofer for $300 from J&R which gives me a $975 total instead of $875 for the full set of Acoustechs with the H100.

 

[skipsterut]

Went for the killer deal.

Well, the question of what subwoofer has been answered. I coudn't pass up the killer deal on the JBL S120PII -- so that eliminates the Acoustech H100.

Now I need to make that FINAL decision on the BIC America or the Acoustechs.

 

[brian32672]

After looking at your drawing, the sub may be better placed in the 2 corners rather the center of the room to the side. However a meter would be the best way to tell. If you have heard of the crawl method (kind of subjective, and can only be used for a single sub) Basically put the sub in your seating area, yes on your sofa or chair. Your main listening position. Turn it on, with something that has a lot of bass, then crawl around the room. Where the best sound comes from, thats where you put the sub. If you only have 3 small spots, just crawl to each of those spots with the remote control in your hand. And replay a bass passage from a song. And out of those 3 spots, choose which one sounds the best to you. If you live near me, you can borrow my meter. If not, then you could pick one up from RS. But the method I said does not require a meter, your ears will be the meter. The meter will pinpoint the best response better. But unless you are critical the method I said will/should give fairly good results..