Bi-Wiring Speakers

[inmypjs]

<font color='#000000'>What are your thoughts regarding bi-wiring speakers?  Someone told me that it does make a difference.  That he can hear the improvement in the sound.  He told me to go to an audio shop and if they are nice, they will let me test their bi-wire cables to hear it for myself.  My B&amp;W Nautilus are bi-wirable, meaning they have two pairs of speaker terminals, and although B&amp;W recommends bi-wiring them, I'm skeptical about the audible improvement of such method.  What I read is that with some speakers they say it's audible, however not so significant to justify the doubled cost from just using single wire, but some just make no difference.  

This is another form of snake oil isn't it so this cable companies can sell you more wires? If so, then why would highly reputable companies like B&amp;W, Polk, Infinity, Paradigm, and Vandersteen recommend it?

B&amp;W's View on Bi-wiring

Then there are one who are against it like Thiel Audio and a cable company, Cobalt Cable, to name a few.

Cobalt Cable on Bi-wiring
Thiel Audio on Bi-wiring

Have there been any ABX DBT done on cables?</font>

 

[zumbo]

<font color='#000000'>I am questioning this also on another thread. Thanks for the B&amp;W link. I went to it to cut &amp; paste the information to other thread. Sounds like it might be the thing to do after all, even if you can't hear the difference, looks like less distortion will be sent to the speaker, &amp; less distortion means longer speaker life for sure! &nbsp;

</font>

 

[jeffsg4mac]

<font color='#000000'>Cobalt cable has it correct. You will not hear any difference. Nothing more than snake oil to sell more wire. Use a good 10 or 12 awg wire and be done with it. Spend the extra money on music or movie, or steak dinners

</font>

 

[gene]

<font color='#000000'>No distortion differences.  Buywiring, I mean biwiring, only real advantage, if you call it that, is lowering the DC resistance of the cabling between the amp and speakers.  However, some biwire cables that integrate both sets in a single sleeving, have extremely high pair to pair capacitance which can represent a stability issue for certain amps if the wire runs become long enough.

The idea of one cable being better suited for high frequencies, and another for low is absolutely ridiculous.  Only a poorly designed speaker cable (either deliberate, or through ignorance) will NOT pass audio frequencies without losses.  The statements from B&amp;W and Thiel seem a bit to &quot;Cable and Dealer Friendly&quot; to me.  The Cobalt Cable position is dead on, and thus one reason why we like their products.  

Biwiring does look cool though, so if you have good cable to spare, go for it and enjoy!</font>

 

[Rip Van Woofer]

<font color='#000000'>Even reputable companies don't always resist a little nip of snake oil in the face of &quot;market realities&quot;, such as customer demand (hey, if it takes two sets of binding posts to get &quot;high end&quot; cred, what the hey?) or strategic parterships with a wire vendor, and so on.

I had a prof in undergrad school who was fond of quoting Rabelais (I think): &quot;When money is involved, real tears are shed&quot;.

Or, if you prefer your cynicism from Randy Newman: &quot;It's money that matters, whatever you say.&quot;</font>

 

[Mudcat]

<font color='#000000'>Are these speaker companies actually recommending bi-Wiring, or Bi-Amping? &nbsp;I would be more inclined to think they are recommending Bi-Amping.</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>My vandersteen's require biwiring. (I use cheap cable- 17c/ft).
Since the idea is to keep the wires apart supposedly I took a 1 X 6 of oak, routed grooves as far apart as possible, stained it all over and use em to keep the two wires apart. Doesn't seem to matter much though.</font>

 

[Audiosouse]

Just as confused now as before.

<font color='#000000'>Even reputable companies don't always resist a little nip of snake oil in the face of &quot;market realities&quot;, such as customer demand (hey, if it takes two sets of binding posts to get &quot;high end&quot; cred, what the hey?) or strategic parterships with a wire vendor, and so on.

First of all, nice to be back. I took a little hiatus from A/V until I realized just how much I enjoy movies and music through a good A/V system.

I think Rip hit the nail on the head there. My current fav. speaker company, Paradgim, has this to say.

"Bi-wiring/bi-amping can improve clarity, detail and bass response. And since bi-wiring only requires another set of speaker cables, this can be a very inexpensive option to consider." http://www.paradigm.com/Support/TechFAQ/TechFAQ.html#Question12

I haven't experienced bi-wiring for myself yet, which is why I'm here. Interestingly enough, I contacted Paradigm and asked them what cables they use to test their speakers or evaluate their performance and how they connect them. They wouldn't say, simply referring me to the dealer for a recommendation. I though if they were in cahoots with a wire company, they'd be eager to drop a name.

I'm still curious as to why many speaker and amplifier manufacturers recommend biwiring in particular. You'd think bi-amping would be in the amp. makers best interests, but they insist on bi-wiring, and I mean almost all of them. What do they know we don't? Some amp. makers (Blue Circle comes to mind) even offer two sets of binding posts for each channel for "shot gun" biwiring.

Another one of life's great mysteries.

 

[Mr. Music]

<font color='#000000'>What are your thoughts regarding bi-wiring speakers? *Someone told me that it does make a difference. *That he can hear the improvement in the sound. *He told me to go to an audio shop and if they are nice, they will let me test their bi-wire cables to hear it for myself. *My B&amp;W Nautilus are bi-wirable, meaning they have two pairs of speaker terminals, and although B&amp;W recommends bi-wiring them, I'm skeptical about the audible improvement of such method. *What I read is that with some speakers they say it's audible, however not so significant to justify the doubled cost from just using single wire, but some just make no difference. *

This is another form of snake oil isn't it so this cable companies can sell you more wires? If so, then why would highly reputable companies like B&amp;W, Polk, Infinity, Paradigm, and Vandersteen recommend it?

Because money is money. One problem with bi-wiring is to keep the system phase linear or real time responding to the signal input. Without goint into the theory behind this you will find arguments towards bi-wiring due to such issues. Seen from a cost perspective it might be mutch more beneficial for the average user to spend some money on room acoustics rather than cables being really expensive.

 

[RLMe36]

Hi all new to the forum and would like to ask a question. I have tributaries biwire or buywire that are in 10 ft runs, is there any real problems with this?

Below you mention increased capacitance would this present a problem to a rotel rb 1080?

Thanks,

rob

PS I see many posts telling of a list of recommended cable vendors, but can't seem to locate it in a search on the site.

<font color='#000000'>No distortion differences. *Buywiring, I mean biwiring, only real advantage, if you call it that, is lowering the DC resistance of the cabling between the amp and speakers. *However, some biwire cables that integrate both sets in a single sleeving, have extremely high pair to pair capacitance which can represent a stability issue for certain amps if the wire runs become long enough.

The idea of one cable being better suited for high frequencies, and another for low is absolutely ridiculous. *Only a poorly designed speaker cable (either deliberate, or through ignorance) will NOT pass audio frequencies without losses. *The statements from B&amp;W and Thiel seem a bit to &quot;Cable and Dealer Friendly&quot; to me. *The Cobalt Cable position is dead on, and thus one reason why we like their products. *

Biwiring does look cool though, so if you have good cable to spare, go for it and enjoy!</font>

 

[gene]

"Bi-wiring/bi-amping can improve clarity, detail and bass response. And since bi-wiring only requires another set of speaker cables, this can be a very inexpensive option to consider." http://www.paradigm.com/Support/Tec...html#Question12

I haven't experienced bi-wiring for myself yet, which is why I'm here. Interestingly enough, I contacted Paradigm and asked them what cables they use to test their speakers or evaluate their performance and how they connect them. They wouldn't say, simply referring me to the dealer for a recommendation. I though if they were in cahoots with a wire company, they'd be eager to drop a name.

Realize that most loudspeaker and other consumer audio manufacturers for that matter wont be totally upfront about cables, because they want to keep their dealers happy. Dealers make a killing on exotic cables, some more than others.

Biwiring offers very little from a performance/technical standpoint providing that you already start out with a good cable to begin with.

Speaker cables are not rocket science. Despite what some vendors would have you believe, its very simple! Choose a cable low in resistance and inductance, and avoid the esoterics that are ultra high in capacitance.

Checkout our Approved Online Vendor List for Cables as well as our extensive articles on cables in our Cables Principles Section.

 

[RLMe36]

Gene,

Thanks for the reply.

In regards to the esoteric stuff, do the networks in MIT's interconnects and speaker wires do anything? or are they in the snake oil biz too?

Rob

Realize that most loudspeaker and other consumer audio manufacturers for that matter wont be totally upfront about cables, because they want to keep their dealers happy. Dealers make a killing on exotic cables, some more than others.

Biwiring offers very little from a performance/technical standpoint providing that you already start out with a good cable to begin with.

Speaker cables are not rocket science. Despite what some vendors would have you believe, its very simple! Choose a cable low in resistance and inductance, and avoid the esoterics that are ultra high in capacitance.

Checkout our Approved Online Vendor List for Cables as well as our extensive articles on cables in our Cables Principles Section.

 

[gene]

Yes those little black boxes certainly can do something or nothing depending on whats in them. Some companies simply slap a black box on with nothing in them, other put filter networks in to limit the bandwidth of the cable (NOT a good idea) or zobels on the speaker end in hopes to restore amplifier phase margin since their cables are so high in capacitance. If you have a good cable to begin with, there should be no need to slap circuitry on them, or soak them in kosher chicken fat

I recommend checking out this link on the insides of many of these cables:

Transparent & MIT Cables Revealed

While you also peruse our:
Top Ten Signs A Cable Vendor is Selling You Snake Oil

 

[RLMe36]

I actually just read that email from the cable nerd re the transparent cables. I would be rather peeved if I was a consumer of their product.

I look forward to my shipment from blue jeans to connect my new cd player then.

Do you know of anyone in the forums that has experience with snell's Ps 10 subs? As soon as I connected to my system there was a consant hum that did not change with volume.

Thanks for the help and the venue

Rob

Yes those little black boxes certainly can do something or nothing depending on whats in them. Some companies simply slap a black box on with nothing in them, other put filter networks in to limit the bandwidth of the cable (NOT a good idea) or zobels on the speaker end in hopes to restore amplifier phase margin since their cables are so high in capacitance. If you have a good cable to begin with, there should be no need to slap circuitry on them, or soak them in kosher chicken fat

I recommend checking out this link on the insides of many of these cables:

Transparent & MIT Cables Revealed

While you also peruse our:
Top Ten Signs A Cable Vendor is Selling You Snake Oil

 

[Dan Banquer]

Buywiring

Well I guess there's one advantage to a series crossover: It's really tough to buywire them.
I'll have to call Bud Fried and ask him what he thinks of buywiring. I'm sure I'll get an earfull.
d.b.

 

[Leprkon]

PS I see many posts telling of a list of recommended cable vendors, but can't seem to locate it in a search on the site.

look here, down towards the bottom of the page

http://www.audioholics.com/shoponline/index.html