Bi-amping with mono-blocks & Denon 2310CI

[Soundstage]

Hi Guys,
1st Thread and new member though I have been a fly on the wall to a lot of your conversations.
Currently I'm running my HT with Yamaha NS-894 MKII for main L & R (custom stands at proper height) and their matching center channel. A Velodyne Optimum 12 as a sub and 4 x HDT in-ceiling stereo speakers as rears for a 7.1 system. Panasonic G5410 Plasma as my video source. My receiver is a Denon 2310CI. I play LP's through a Stanton 150. Overall in my sound proof 15x26 "man cave" it's quite good. Not audiophile good but 200x better than your out-of box wanna be audiophile looking setup.
I want to upgrade and am very seriously contemplating going with Paradigm Studio 100's and their matching CC-690 as a center (I have previewed almost all speakers mentioned here). With this I would also mono-block these 3 with Outlaw 200's and (after my wife has stopped yelling) bi-amp them with 3 more Outlaws.
My question to you Guru's out there is, how does one do this (the wiring) and can it be done using my current receiver. I mean I have seen the 3 prong outlets (the balanced outlet) on high-end receivers with every speaker output but how can I do this on my 2310CI???
Very excited at this prospect but want to get into this with proper education. Thank you for all your help. Great community!!!

 

[templemaners]

Your 2310CI does not have preouts, so you can't add monoblock amps (or any amps for that matter). Your monoblock plan will need a new receiver/prepro to work.

 

[adwilk]

Yeah, as was already said, you cannot do it with your current gear. Also, passive bi-amping will add no audible benefit.

 

[mtrycrafts]

... Also, passive bi-amping will add no audible benefit.

Less coins jingling in pocket certainly will be audibly different, no?

 

[Soundstage]

Thanks guys ... needless to say I just feel as if I've had the wind kicked out of me ..... oh crap ... I really didn't want to ask this question for the next 500 days. BUT .... do I have anything in the 1500 and under range receiver (that you'd recommend) that can do what my Denon can't do???
Thanks!

 

[templemaners]

Preouts are pretty standard when you get to around the top of the midrange receivers (some brands may introduce them a bit lower), and are certainly included by the time you're in the $1500 range.

All you will need to do is look at the back of the receiver you're shopping for and look for a group of connections that say "PREOUT". Take a look at this Denon AVR-3311CI. If you look along the bottom just to the left of the speaker connections, you should see a group of outputs for 7 channels of external amplification as well as two subwoofers. A lot of preout sections have connections for 7 speakers and 1 sub, but some have connections for 9 or 11 speakers and 2 or 3 subs (the Denon AVR-4810CI has 3 subwoofer outputs in the preout section just above the speaker terminals)

So you just need to shop around for a receiver that has the features you want - including those preout connections - if you want to add the monoblocks. And was mentioned before, passive biamping isn't worth the trouble or cost.

From last year, the Denon 990, 3310, 4310, 4810 and 5308 all have preouts. Denon got cheap, foolish, or both this year, and cut the preouts out of the newer 991 receiver , so your 2011 models that have preouts are limited to the 3311, 4311, 4810, and 5308.

 

[j_garcia]

Keep the amps you have, get a receiver with preouts, buy better speakers and don't worry about bi-amping anything. Putting more money into your speakers will get you a LOT more bang for your buck than going crazy with amps. Sort of like putting the cart before the horse.

 

[PENG]

Thanks guys ... needless to say I just feel as if I've had the wind kicked out of me ..... oh crap ... I really didn't want to ask this question for the next 500 days. BUT .... do I have anything in the 1500 and under range receiver (that you'd recommend) that can do what my Denon can't do???
Thanks!

Get this for $898.

http://www.amazon.com/Denon-AVR4310CI-7-1-Channel-Multi-Zone-Connectivity/dp/B002AKKFQC/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1299290422&sr=8-2

It should do a good job with the Studio 100 (93 dB sensitivity in room, 8 ohms compatible) unless your room is bigger than it can handle. If that is not enough, you just have to add this for $699

http://emotiva.com/xpa3.shtm

and let it takes care of your main L/R/C, then the Denon can for sure drive the surround speakers without much difficulties.

 

[Soundstage]

Have sound

Got my Studio 100's ... in the process of breaking them in, I really think I have to at least get the Denon 3311 and them bi amp or at least pop a Emo 3 just for LR and the CC690 which is on its way.
Huge sound improvement even at low levels. 2CH music of LP sounds amazing.
My Velodyne seems to have got lost though ... no idea should play around I guess. What other comparable receivers to the 3311 are out there??

 

[PENG]

Got my Studio 100's ... in the process of breaking them in, I really think I have to at least get the Denon 3311 and them bi amp or at least pop a Emo 3 just for LR and the CC690 which is on its way.
Huge sound improvement even at low levels. 2CH music of LP sounds amazing.
My Velodyne seems to have got lost though ... no idea should play around I guess. What other comparable receivers to the 3311 are out there??

I just can't understand why Denon cut out the pre-outs from the 19XX and 2XXX AVRs. They used to have them. And even crazier than this, their same models, less than CI (2311) for other parts of the world such as the far east countries still have 7.1 preouts.

The 3311 has the preouts you need but if you don't need 3D the 4310 gets you more bang for the bucks. If you don't mind paying a little more the 4311 has great specs and claims 4 ohm capable. The latest version of the Studio 100 would probably do its best when matched with a 300 WPC amp so biamp or not you should add a 2 to 3 channel power amp even if you end up with a very powerful 4311.

By the way, you can listen to members here about bi-wire/bi-amp (passive) being waste of time (I respect their opinions but I would not necessarily take that as facts) but if you believe in Paradigm/Anthem, they tell you either scheme will improve your sound and that passive bi-amp using identical models is actually the right thing to do.

Following are taken from their (Anthem in this case) FAQ:

" According a recurring audio-myth, only an active crossover should be used for biamping, in order to split the band before the power amp instead of inside the speaker, thereby reducing the amount of work each amp channel has to do. While active crossovers do have their place in PA systems, it should be noted that equalizers are also a part of it........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

Tearing out the speaker's own finely-tuned crossover to replace it with an active crossover with generic controls almost guarantees that, just for starters, frequency response will be altered. Different sound doesn't mean better sound. Using the passive crossover in the speaker is indeed the correct way to biamp.

.............................................................................................................................

Now I hope no one will shoot the messenger. Since you seem to be quite bend on biamping so I thought you should hear from both sides. I have enough amps to biamp but I won't bother. I do biwire, simply because I have the wires and they are only 7 ft short, very easy to do so why not. It certainly has not deteriorated the sound.

 

[Soundstage]

Thanks PENG, can you please spell out to me what exactly 'passive' and 'active' bi-wiring/ amping is. What is the difference.
Say for instance if I went the way of the Denon 4310 or 3311 and then used say 2xOutlaw 200w monob. amps to power each L and R, what would that be?? Also going with say the 4310 which spits out 140w a channel, will I be creating such a difference in sound quality and quantity if I threw the Emo 3 channel at 200w per channel??
I'm just getting into AV so pardon the basic questions.
p.s- I am not bent either way ... just trying to do the best for my new kids ... big and shinny (piano black btw) and gorgeous kids. Dang their taller than my real kids and believe it or not louder.

 

[PENG]

can you please spell out to me what exactly 'passive' and 'active' bi-wiring/ amping is. What is the difference.

Passive biamping involves removing the jumpers on the biampable speaker's terminals and then connect one set of the binding post to one amp and the other set to another amp of the same model (typically).

Active biamping involves the use of an external crossover network in addition to using two amplifiers for one speaker. In doing so you also have to remove or bypass/disconnect the OEM crossover network inside the speaker. You can easily google the topic for more information.

Say for instance if I went the way of the Denon 4310 or 3311 and then used say 2xOutlaw 200w monob. amps to power each L and R, what would that be??

If you are simply using a "Y" splitter with the preouts of the 4310 to feed the inputs of two monoblocks to drive one speaker (jumper removed), it will be considered "passive" biamp.

Also going with say the 4310 which spits out 140w a channel, will I be creating such a difference in sound quality and quantity if I threw the Emo 3 channel at 200w per channel??

It depends on whether you need that additional power in your listening environment. If you do then the EMO will do you good. Regardless, it is good to have more power than you need.

I suggest you also read the Q&A in the following link as well as the other Q&A in the FAQ:

http://www.anthemav.com/index.php?view=items&cid=1:General+FAQs&id=7:doesnt-passive-biamping-waste-the-amps-power-because-each-channel-still-has-to-amplify-the-full-range-signal-and-not-just-the-highs-or-the-lows&option=com_quickfaq

 

[Soundstage]

Firstly thanks a million for being this precise in your answers. I really appreciate that.
Secondly 1-10 or on any scale what are the merits and de-merits of passive vs. active. I mean if we remove or bypass the speaker crossovers isn't that kind of counter productive to by a great name-brand like Paradigm and taking out their R&D out.
The "Y" splitter makes all the world of sense .... as in I was wondering how I'd accommodate 2 amps with only 1 pre-out.
I'm eager to hear of what you have to say on the two types. Really annoying that my existing receiver doesn't have pre outs.
Thanks again

 

[PENG]

Firstly thanks a million for being this precise in your answers. I really appreciate that.
Secondly 1-10 or on any scale what are the merits and de-merits of passive vs. active. I mean if we remove or bypass the speaker crossovers isn't that kind of counter productive to by a great name-brand like Paradigm and taking out their R&D out.
The "Y" splitter makes all the world of sense .... as in I was wondering how I'd accommodate 2 amps with only 1 pre-out.
I'm eager to hear of what you have to say on the two types. Really annoying that my existing receiver doesn't have pre outs.
Thanks again

Based on my understanding of the theory, the benefits of passive biamp makes sense. Most other forum members disagree and will likely tell you the opposite. In the link I sent you, Anthem FAQ is basically saying what you are saying yourself. On the other hand I have no personal experience with biamping, passive or active; and I really don't believe either will make an audible difference for me. Again, I understand in theory it should help improve SQ in terms of "fidelity" but in practice I think my hearing is in capable of discerning the difference. YMMV.

Your receiver is a a very good and capable one, but it is a shame it does not have preouts while its brothers and sisters in the far east do, a double shame really. It should not be hard for you to sell it, or save it for a second system. Nowadays you can buy one with preouts for <$1K.