Best Receiver for use with outboard amps for Multizone

[audiofox]

I currently have two separate audio setups. My "a/v" setup consists of an older Yamaha RXV493 connected to a Toshiba 36" TV. I also have a 2 channel setup in my listening room, using an Adcom 565 preamp and a 555 power amp. I also have an Adcom 5503 3 channel amp and a Dynaco 400 Series 2 SS 2 channel amp (200 wpc). I am considering a move to a single receiver to be used as a multizone controller (a/v room, audio room, patio, all of which are adjacent to each other), and I plan to use the three outboard amps for the most critical listening requirements (probably the audio room). I plan to replace the Toshiba TV with a front projector, which I am still researching. I currently have a Denon 2900 universal player and a SA 8300HS cable box (have the HD capability but no way to enjoy it as yet). My crtial objectives are:

1. independent routing of multiple audio signals to multiple zones
2. high quality video switching between the two sources (no plans for multi-zone video at this time, but possibly for the future)
3. sufficient power to drive accurate but inefficient speakers (Dynaudios and NHT subs for the two inside rooms) for two large rooms (audio: 14x22, a/v room: 15x25)
4. multichannel audio for both interior rooms (patio would be nice but is not critical)
5. ability to control basic audio functions (ie, volume, audio source) from all zones

I'm sure there are other needs, but those are the important ones I can think of at this time.

Obviously a receiver such as the Denon 5805 would easily fit the bill, but I am not sure I need all its capabilities (plus it is is significantly more expensive than other candidates). I would like to keep my receiver outlay under $2000 if possible, but I am also ready to spend more if it means I have a system I don't have to upgrade for awhile (so my kids can stay in college!).

Thoughts, questions and comments are heartily encouraged.

 

[audiofox]

PS: I have been researching receivers for some time now, and have found myself looking repeatedly at the following units: Denon family (3806 and up, including the discontinued 5803) and Outlaw receivers and pre/pro units. Yamaha also makes units with some of the capabilities I need, but I am concerned about their apparent deterioration of CS as of late. All seem to have some or all of the merits I am looking for, but I am a bit overwhelmed with trying to make an intelligent comparison between them for my needs. I have also considered selling all my electronics and starting over with a single receiver, but I am worried about the ability of many of the candidates to drive my Dynaudios adequately. TIA for any suggestions you may provide.

 

[jcPanny]

Receiver with Zone 2

Any receiver with a Zone 2 output will fit the bill. The zone 2 (and zone 3) features on new receivers will allow you to listen to one source in the main room and a different (analog only) source in the zone 2 (or 3) locations.

Receivers with this feature start under $1k.
I think that the Yamaha RX-V2600 or Denon 3806 would work well in your application. Instead of using the receiver's amps, conect the zone 2 (or 3) pre-outs to your existing 2-channel amplifier to power the whole house speakers. Impedence matching volume controls in each room will ensure that the amp sees a 4-8 ohm load.

 

[Johnd]

Obviously a receiver such as the Denon 5805 would easily fit the bill, but I am not sure I need all its capabilities (plus it is is significantly more expensive than other candidates).

But that's why people buy the 5805, and why I bought the 5803 two years ago (for 2k). I want to stop upgrading every two years. Anyhow, that's part of the fun of it ("the hunt"), so enjoy!

 

[audiofox]

But that's why people buy the 5805, and why I bought the 5803 two years ago (for 2k). I want to stop upgrading every two years. Anyhow, that's part of the fun of it ("the hunt"), so enjoy!

I think I enjoy the hunt much more than the head of the finance committee (ie, my wife).

 

[audiofox]

Any receiver with a Zone 2 output will fit the bill. The zone 2 (and zone 3) features on new receivers will allow you to listen to one source in the main room and a different (analog only) source in the zone 2 (or 3) locations.

Receivers with this feature start under $1k.
I think that the Yamaha RX-V2600 or Denon 3806 would work well in your application. Instead of using the receiver's amps, conect the zone 2 (or 3) pre-outs to your existing 2-channel amplifier to power the whole house speakers. Impedence matching volume controls in each room will ensure that the amp sees a 4-8 ohm load.

Thanks for the info. Do you know if the 3806 allows one to use the internal amps for one multichannel zone and the preouts for a second multichannel zone at the same time?

 

[audiofox]

After reading about the Denon receivers, I am starting to think that I should get two receivers-one (possibly a 2106 or even an older Denon) for use as a pre/pro for my audio room and another (3806) for the A/V room and the other zones. Other than the fact that they would be operated independently, I would have as much zone control and flexibility as I would with a more expensive single receiver for less overall cost. I might even be able to justify a 3910 and use the Denonlink for the a/v room and use the 2900 for the audio room (where it currently resides).

 

[zildjian]

Thanks for the info. Do you know if the 3806 allows one to use the internal amps for one multichannel zone and the preouts for a second multichannel zone at the same time?

No it doesn't, not for multichannel. Not unless you just want to have the exact same thing playing in both rooms at the same time.

The only zone 2/3 capabilities it has is for stereo.

 

[Ron_Phelps]

Zone 2 capabilty

I have a Marantz SR-8300 that has zone 2 capability - you can use its surround channel amps for zone 2 or if you use an external amp you retain the multi-channel capability in the main room. It also has fixed or variable volume settings. The Denon 3806 has zone 2 & 3 capability with zone 2 being powered by the extra surround amps and zone 3 requires an external amp. Analog signals only in the extra zones.

 

[jcPanny]

Multiple systems

After reading about the Denon receivers, I am starting to think that I should get two receivers-one (possibly a 2106 or even an older Denon) for use as a pre/pro for my audio room and another (3806) for the A/V room and the other zones. Other than the fact that they would be operated independently, I would have as much zone control and flexibility as I would with a more expensive single receiver for less overall cost. I might even be able to justify a 3910 and use the Denonlink for the a/v room and use the 2900 for the audio room (where it currently resides).

Fox,
I think you are on the right track with multiple systems. Keep in mind that running a few coax cable from system 1 to system 2 (2 analog RCAs, and 1 digital coax) would allow your to pipe all audio from system 1 to system 2.
Also, spending some of the money you save on a speaker, sub, or room treatment upgrade would provide the biggest improvement in audio quality.

 

[audiofox]

Fox,
I think you are on the right track with multiple systems. Keep in mind that running a few coax cable from system 1 to system 2 (2 analog RCAs, and 1 digital coax) would allow your to pipe all audio from system 1 to system 2.
Also, spending some of the money you save on a speaker, sub, or room treatment upgrade would provide the biggest improvement in audio quality.

Thanks for the comments. I am looking hard at the 3806 as the primary a/v pre/pro, with an Adcom 5503 for the front three channels, the Denon internal amps for the surrounds, and an additional Adcom 555 for the second zone. The subs will be self-powered with Class D amplifiers built into the subwoofer encosures. For video, the main a/v room will have a projector, retractable screen and HD cable and universal DVD player sources. For audio, the main a/v room will have almost all available audio sources-turntable, tuner, cassette player, and a Denon 3910 CD/DVD-A/SACD player. I'm still working on the minimum requirement for the second zone-it will also have video (HDTV rather than a projector), my existing Denon 2900, an additional HD cable box, but I am still undecided as to the level of receiver or additional outboard amps I need for this room (it also needs preouts and should have a tuner, but I am not sure what else I really need for this zone).

I agree with you that spending more on the speakers and room acoustics will provide the most bang for the buck, which is one of the reasons I am also building a Dynaudio/NHT speaker setup for both interior zones. I have around $2k invested in the drivers, which are all Dynaudios for the mains/surrounds and NHT 1259s for the subs. I figure another $1k for the crossover components and enclosure materials (I am designing and building both myself, with a little help from Madisound's LEAP service for the crossovers), and I will have a 7.1 speaker system for the main a/v room and a 5.1 system for the audio room, both which will be roughly equivalent to the Dynaudio Contour line of speakers (most of my drivers are Esotec, which is the predominant driver used for the Contour line). I have not yet examined room treatments, which will more than likely be developed empirically over a period of time. My biggest challenge for room acoustics will be how to preserve a multi-use capability for the a/v room, and how to improve acoustics in the second room without violating WAF design rules. I've been considering a coffee table solution for the subs, which could solve the aesthetics problem for both rooms. In any event, I expect to be spending A LOT of time in my shop this spring and summer building the 16 speaker enclosures and crossover networks I need-buying the pre/pro is looking like the easiest part of this project!

 

[jcPanny]

Diy Ht

I would hold off on the new receiver purchase until you are done with the speaker project. The cost of electronics is always dropping and by the time your are done, they might have HDMI 1.3 or other features out on new models.

 

[audiofox]

Well, I pulled the trigger today on a Denon 3806-it had most of the same features as the Outlaw that I wanted, and had the additional benefit of the internal amps that I can use either for the surround channels or the patio audio zone. I plan to keep my Adcom 565 preamp and use it for my analog sources (tuner, turntable, cassette deck) as it has a processor loop that can function as a "theater pass-through" so I can route the front l/r channels from the Denon through the proc loop (Harley's book has a nice discussion of this approach). I also got a Panny AE900u and an additonal Adcom GFA-555 II power amp that had a substantial amount of upgrades to the power supply and signal paths for a bit more than I paid for the non-modified Adcom I already have. I am looking hard at the Optoma Graywolf screen, as it is very reasonable price ($125 at some online stores) and seems to work well with the Panny in conditions with some ambient light. For the second a/v zone, I plan to either get an entry level Denon (the 1906 has preouts) or wait (as recommended by jcPanny-love the handle!) for a better receeiver for the main a/v zone and use the 3806 for the second zone. Decisions, decisions... I hope I enjoy the systems as much as I have enjoyed buying all the toys and developing the system designs.

 

[zildjian]

AFox,
Keep us informed and let us know how things go in your project, I mean projects... You're right, the system design is one of the most fun aspects of this whole game. That's the part of audio engineering that keeps me up reading @ night after getting home from working all day and night. Hope the Denon serves you well, I sure have enjoyed mine.
Brad

 

[patnshan]

I have a Marantz SR-8300 that has zone 2 capability - you can use its surround channel amps for zone 2 or if you use an external amp you retain the multi-channel capability in the main room. It also has fixed or variable volume settings. The Denon 3806 has zone 2 & 3 capability with zone 2 being powered by the extra surround amps and zone 3 requires an external amp. Analog signals only in the extra zones.

Although it's not advertised, the marantz can do zone 2 and 3 as well. I have the SR-8400 and use it in 5.1 + 2.0 + 2.0. I use the internal extra two channels for the dining room and an external T-amp for the outdoor speakers. You can run it all at the same time. I do it and have confirmed with Marantz that this is not harmful. Keep in mind that the multi zones can only be run on analog inputs, which may be troublesome to some people.

Pat

 

[audiofox]

I am now the proud owner of an Outlaw 970 to use in one of my a/v zones. I will probably use it as my primary a/v zone pre/pro along with my Denon 2900, and use my Adcom 5503/Rotel RB-1080/Dynaco ST400 II for the seven channels (the sub will have its own plate amp). The Denon will then be used for the secondary a/v zone, which is adjacent to the 3rd zone (my patio). I have two more 2 channel amps (Adcom 555II and an Adcom 555 modified by Musical Concepts), which I will either use for the front r/l/c speakers or sell and replace with another multichannel amp. I plan to use the Denon internal amps for the outdoor zone, since they are the least powerful of the amps available to me and will drive less demanding speakers (all the inside speakers are Dynaudios with 4-6 ohm impedances and 88-89 dB SPL efficiency ratings). I am also considering selling all the outboard amps and buying two 7 channel amps to reduce the complexity, but I will probably try this setup first to see how it sounds. My next challenge is how to house all the electronics-the Denon and Adcom 5503 are too big for my existing cabinet, so I will have to modify it to make them fit. I'm also looking at adding a HT capability to my patio-I bought an Optoma Graywolf 106" diag screen, which now looks to be too big for my primary a/v zone, so I plan to install hangars and brackets under my patio cover so I can set up the projector and screen when I want to use them outside, then take them inside when I am finished. Given the multizone, multiroom requirements, I am also looking at the MX-800 IR/RF remote to use for the second/third zones. Boy, I thought that designing satellite comm systems was challenging until I started doing this system! I find myself going back and forth on all the options-I'm sure the rest of you knew immediately what you wanted to do and didn't agonize over the details like this.

 

[jcPanny]

HT progress

Fox,
Sounds like you are well on your way to multiple high end but complex HT systems. Any progress on the speaker project?

For a good deal on a 7-channel amp, check out the Emotiva MPS-1 from av123.com. They have a special running from the secrets or ht site for $1700 with 7 monoblock channels which will each deliver 300 Watts into 4 ohms. This amp is very flexible and any of the 7 slots can also be used with a stereo amp module allowing any where from 7-14 amp channels in the same chassis. Might work well for your multizone system.

 

[audiofox]

Thanks for the tip-I will check out the Emotiva. The amplifier selection is really the only aspect of my system I haven't settled-my Frankenstein colleciton will do the job, but they take up a lot of space. BTW, I sold my Outlaw 970 and replaced it with another Denon 3806-I wanted the 3806 for the primary a/v zone so I could Denonlink it with the 3910, but I needed multi-zone capability for the other zone, which the 970 did not have. I also have been collecting Dynaudio Audience speakers to save me some time on the construction aspects of the two systems. At this time, I have the following components (all but the Panny plasma is purchased):

zone 1 (family room) (7.1):
video-Panny AE900U, Da-Lite Model B w/HCMW screen
source-Denon 3910
controller-Denon 3806
external amp-Adcom 5503 (front l/r/c) (will use the Denon inboard amps for the rears and surrounds)
sub-NHT 1259 DIY with TBD plate amp (leaning toward Rythmik Audio)
analog-VPI HW19 Mk 4/SME 309/Grado Platinum with Adcom GFP-565 preamp
speakers-Dynaudio Xennon kit (front l/r), Dynaudio DIY center, Dynaudio Audience 52 surround, Dynaudio 42 rears

zone 2 (living room) (5.1):
video-Panny TH-42PX60u or TH-50PX60U plasma (haven't decided on the size yet)
source-Denon 2900
controller-Denon 3806
external amp-Rotel RB-1080 (front l/r), Adcom GFA-555 (center) (will use Denon inboard amps for surrounds and patio zone 3)
sub-NHT 1259 DIY with TBD plate amp (leaning toward Rythmik Audio)
speakers: Dynaudio Aries (front l/r), Dynaudio Audience C120 (center), Dynaudio Audience 42 (surrounds)

zone 3 (patio):
video-Panny AE900U, Da-Lite Model B w/HCMW screen (borrow from FR for outdoor movies)
source, controller: share with zone 2 (Denon 2900/3806)
external amp-Adcom GFA-555 II or Denon inboard amps (surround rears)
speakers-KLH outdoor 3 ways (2 channel only)

 

[jcPanny]

Nice HT progress

Just make sure you invite the neighbors over for the movies on the patio so that they don't complain about the noise. Definately get the MPS-1 to clean up the main zone and send me one of those old amps that you don't want.

I'm am also interested to hear how the inexpensive DaLite screen looks and how it holds up over time.

 

[audiofox]

I have great neighbors, thank God, but I don't plan to test the limits of their tolerance-the outdoor theater is only planned for special events or when the closest neighbors are out of town or away for the evening. In fact, I will probably christen my outdoor theater on July 4th and invite them over to watch a suitably patriotic movie (Saving Private Ryan would be a good one). As for the Da-lite, I spoke with the CS folks at the company (highly recommended-they are very knowledgeable), and they recommended the HCMW for my needs-it is light gray and does a bit better at rejecting ambient light, and the screen can be wiped down with a damp cloth (nice feature for my outdoor application), unlike the glass bead Optoma Graywolf I had been considering. The only other features I considered were the Model C steel bearing mechanism (they said it was mainly for high usage applications ike classrooms) and their CSR (controlled screen return) feature, which has a gentler rollup return function (also more for high usage apps). According to the CS person I spoke with, all the Da-lite screens use the same 5-6 screen material types-they only differences are the mechanisms (manual, electric, CSR, tensioned, etc) and other aesthetics I didn't care about. What turned me to Da-Lite was the VisualApex salesman, who told me of their long history in the screen business (100 years!) and their great customer service.

BTW, I forgot to mention that I am also adding a Power Mac G5 server to the HT setup to use as a movie and music server-it will have close to 1 TB of storage space, good for around 140 movies and 30 GB of Apple lossless encoded music. Using the Firewire ports, I can add additional HS storage and increase the capacity well beyond my most liberal storage projections. With Front Row on the G5 and a satellite Macbook Pro I also got, I will hopefully have a easy to use, comprehensive multimedia setup. Now I need to figure out how to convince my wife to use it!

JC, If I get the Emotiva or a similar multichannel amp, you'll be the first to hear of my extra amps.