Best DIY Project for a DIY newcommer?

S

Schultz

Audiophyte
I'm Brand Newbie... Oobie-Dooby Kanoobie with two Big Questions.
First - best first DIY project for a newcommer?


So for a total newcommer who is willing to spend money on components (but excited about DIY), what's the very best choice for an audio DIY newbieo build?
- a subwoofer (can I build one with exceptional musical response to fill-out my otherwise excellent bookshelf speakers?)
- a center-channel speaker? (people say these "must match" the mains - which in this case and for the time being are my bookshelf speakers. But I don't believe I'll have an issue here - the Kef XQ-1's are natively tuned for midrange and voice, as I understand center-channels are. So, shouldn't any good (and even homemade) center-channel fit the bill?)
- full tower speakers (isn't this completely unrealistic for a newcommer?)
- A single component of a larger 5.1 surround set that is designed to work together? (This option I hate because frankly exceptional 2-channel audio it an equal or larger priority.)
- a speaker selector (which I examine in detail in my next posting!)

I realize this is an enormous excercise and not at all a quantitative question. I'd simply like to hear experienced people's ideas about what they wish they'd known about building various components when they got started. In hindsight, where would have been their best place to start?



More details about who I am & what I want (in case you give a damn):
I'm a brand newbie to audio building with engineering background (not electrical) and short but good hands-on high-school electronics experience. I am newly curious about serious hi-fi - reading madly and slowly buying components - now a good SimAudio i-5 integrated amplifier (C$4,000) and some little Kef XQ-1 bookshelf speakers (US$1800).

As you can see - I can grow my speaker system in any direction, and yes - I aim long term for both exceptional two-channel audio and decent (not great) home theatre sound (5.1, I assume).

Is one project VERY difficult and so unsuitable to a newbie?
Does one project have, for it's careful amateurs, any sets of plans that produce exceptionaly good quality equipment (or do they all or do none of them?) The plans for the various projects I've found are largely from Parts-Express.com Are there other / better sources?
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Welcome newbie!

My first piece of advice is read & learn. The best book in my opinion is Speaker Building 201 by Ray Alden http://www.madisound.com/books.html. I've tried to read Vance Dickason's book and it is too hard - not the subject matter, but the writing. Alden does a better job presenting things clearly. I tend to overlook the speaker designs in his book because they are now or will be soon out of date in the sense that some of those drivers will be hard to find for sale. Also I prefer to stick with designs that I have heard or are designed by people I am somewhat familiar with.

Avoid using stock crossovers. Too many eager newbies think that all they need is an imagination, a Parts Express catalog, and a circle saw. The whole benefit of DIY speaker building comes with using crossovers custom designed for a set of drivers in a particular cabinet. Crossover design is the most difficult part and the most rewarding part. Second in importance is having broad experience in listening to a wide variety of speakers and individual drivers. Thats why I urge you to follow a recipe from an experienced designer. These are some DIY designers, who have good websites with a large variety of designs, that I would recommend:

Dennis Murphy http://murphyblaster.com/content.php?f=main.html He is my personal favorite - see more below.

Lou Coraggio http://www.lonesaguaro.com/speakers/ Lou Coraggio has some very interesting designs, although I've never heard them. His woodworking skills look very good. That's always something to strive for.

Wayne Jasche http://www.speakerbuilder.net/web_files/default.htm He has some articles on his site that helped me learn quite a lot when I was starting. See his article titled "Finding the Optimum Crossover Frequency". His designs tend to use less expensive Dayton drivers.

Roman J Bednarek http://www.rjbaudio.com/ Like Dennis Murphy, Roman likes paper coned drivers and textile tweeters. The more I read of his stuff, the more interested I am in his designs. He seems to like drivers that I have heard and know that I like. I am especially interested by his Asterion design.

John Krutke http://www.zaphaudio.com/ John Krutke, on the other hand, loves metal coned drivers. He also has a lot of test data that can be interesting, although some of it is above my head.

All of the above write well and present reliable info in a form that I can easily understand. All of them test their designs carefully both by computer modeling and by real world listening.

All of these guys, except Wayne Jasche, will answer your questions if you email them, or if you post on the Madisound discussion board http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/discuss.cgi. This forum is the best DIY speaker builder hangout.

I've built 2 of Dennis Murphy's designs (the MB20, a 2-way for about $320 a pair, and the CAOW1, a 2-way for about $450 a pair) and I can highly recommend both. I built the CAOW1 in November and it is now my favorite speaker. The MB20, I built for my nephew in Los Angeles, is a less expensive version of the CAOW1. Both are small cabinet 2-way ported speakers with a 5¼" midwoofer and a 1" (in the MB20) or a ¾" (in the CAOW1) dome tweeter. Both use 2nd order crossovers which Dennis believes contributes to a more open and spacious sound. I tend to agree. I was actually impressed by the unexpected bass response of these small speakers. The CAOW1 can deliver an honest 50 Hz, the MB20 (and its cousins the MBOW1 and MB27 that use different tweeters) delivers an honest 55 Hz. Dennis showed me what baffle step compensation does for small speakers. A lot of commercial small 2-ways fail to address this problem at all! To learn what BSC is see http://www.quarter-wave.com/General/BSC_Sizing.pdf. The tweeters (Hiquphon OW1s) that are in the CAOW1 and the MBOW1 designs are without any doubt the best tweeters I've ever heard. They cost $200 a pair! That's why Dennis also offers the MB20 and MB27 that use tweeters that go for about $60 a pair. They are also quite good.

The bottom line with Dennis Murphy's designs, is that I like the way he "voices" his designs. I like their sound. Not surprisingly, his designs also have quite flat frequency response curves. I have met him, he lives in my area. He is not an EE, he has a Ph.D. in economics! He is an amateur musician (piano and violin), and he has the best listening acuity I have ever witnessed. He has about 25 years experience in DIY audio, and his expertise in crossover design is highly valued in the DIY world. I have come to trust all of his audio choices. Your taste may certainly vary from mine.

The vendors I've used are Madisound http://www.madisound.com/, Parts Express http://www.************.com/ and Zalytron http://www.zalytron.com/.

You mentioned a little of your background. What woodworking experience and tools do you have? Large savings can be made by building your own enclosures. Your woodworking abilities may well be the deciding factor in what your first project should be. Small cabinets such as for a bookshelf speaker are easier to do for a beginner and require less elaborate woodworking tools. Towers and subwoofer cabinets often require a table saw. In the sense that subwoofers don't require a separate crossover, they are simpler for a newbie to make as a first project. They do require a properly crossbraced cabinet.

I think, I'll stop here and let you digest some of this.:D
 
S

Schultz

Audiophyte
Great info!

Many thanks for the input, Swerd! I am reading voraciously now & appreciate the guidance on where to look (especially on which book to buy - I'm finding materials online a little too scattered).

I'm reasonably proficient in woodworking & will soon have a good shop set up complete with table-saw, planer, router (if need be), etc. Also I'll have solid cherry and maple wood to work with - true, solid 1" planks! (As you can imagine, I'm excited!)

I'll follow-up on these designers & check out madisound as well. Thanks again!

Schultz
 
Hi Ho

Hi Ho

Audioholic Samurai
I say a good first project is a subwoofer. My first was as subwoofer and I am extremely happy with it. My second project, recently completed, was a pair of bookshelf speakers. I used a stock crossover but I was in a time (and budget) crunch. I am very impressed with the sound though.

Now, I recommend a subwoofer because they are relatively simple to design compared to other projects. You don't need to worry about a crossover. You can also get excellent performance for a minimal investment. See THIS thread for my projects. The total cost of the subwoofer was under $300, the speakers, under $200.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Schultz said:
I'm reasonably proficient in woodworking & will soon have a good shop set up complete with table-saw, planer, router (if need be), etc. Also I'll have solid cherry and maple wood to work with - true, solid 1" planks!
I just noticed that you are in Ontario, so you should also consider a Canadian vendor, Solen http://www.solen.ca/.

Good to hear about your wood shop. I have found that a plunge router was the most important new tool to get. I live near large home building supply stores (Lowe's and Home Depot) that do a reasonable job at cutting 4 x 8 sheets of MDF into the smaller sizes I need, so I have gotten by without a table saw. A plunge router & a Jasper circle cutting jig are great for making counter-sunk circular cutouts to mount drivers so they are flush with the front baffle. There are other ways to do this, but a plunge router and a Jasper jig are probably the easiest.

Solid hardwood for speaker cabinets may look beautiful, but MDF is cheaper, less prone to resonant vibration, and will not change dimensions with changes in humidity. I've seen joints in glued up hardwood cabinets that separated and cracked because of summer humidity.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
Avoid using stock crossovers. Too many eager newbies think that all they need is an imagination, a Parts Express catalog, and a circle saw.
Whether you meant it to be or not, DAMN that was funny!! :D Yet so true...
 
S

skrivis

Junior Audioholic
Swerd said:
Solid hardwood for speaker cabinets may look beautiful, but MDF is cheaper, less prone to resonant vibration, and will not change dimensions with changes in humidity. I've seen joints in glued up hardwood cabinets that separated and cracked because of summer humidity.
Solid wood is wonderful for some musical instruments, where you want their special character to shape the resonance.

Loudspeakers enclosures are not supposed to make sound, so you want them as stiff and dead as possible. MDF does this quite well.

Save the fine wood for veneer and moldings. I even know of one maker that makes part of the front baffle from solid wood, but most of the cabinets are still a composite material like MDF.

Check out Salk Sound if you want to see some nice wood. :)
http://www.salksound.com/

Depending upon how ambitious you are, you could try building cabinets for someone else's design, and sort of see if you can follow along and figure out why they designed it the way they did. I feel that the first few projects should be ones that give you a fairly easy success.

David Ellis has a nice design. http://www.ellisaudio.com/1801.htm
There is also the SEAS Thor, and Linkwitz's Orion, although all of these require a fair amount of money for the parts.

Madisound and Zalytron have some interesting things to build too. :)

Building speakers based on Martin King's work would be neat. I've seen a number of designs for these.



Too many projects, too little time.
 
S

Schultz

Audiophyte
Hi Ho - ("I say a good first project is a subwoofer."),

SOLD! I think I was sort of leaning towards building a subwoofer first, so I'm glad you encourage that option. This prompts a new question... what do people think about an 'infinitely baffled' design? It sounds like a surefire winning design as long as you can sacrifice the space and maybe spend a little more.

By the way... I'm a single guy, and soon moving into my very first (nice big) house.


swerd -
Thanks for tips on Canadian parts & MDF (I'll interject here to mention I can easily mail order US parts duty-free... I travel for business in the US often, and when I drive I have things shipped to my hotel.

with skrivis too,
Thanks for the MDF details. I gathered that MDF was the material of choice, but planned a larger structure of well finished, quality wood. The link to SalkSound was incredible... now that's what _I'm_ talkin' about!


So infinite baffle (the subwoofer mounted in an open box in an adjacent room space) - that's the only question..... Thanks again to all.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Schultz said:
I think I was sort of leaning towards building a subwoofer first, so I'm glad you encourage that option. This prompts a new question... what do people think about an 'infinitely baffled' design? It sounds like a surefire winning design as long as you can sacrifice the space and maybe spend a little more.

By the way... I'm a single guy, and soon moving into my very first (nice big) house.
I admit to knowing very little about Infinite Baffle subwoofers. I prefer more standard designs for their flexibility. You can move them around the room and hear large differences in bass volume due to room reflections and standing waves. And you can move them to another house. The one IB I've seen is built as a permanent fixture in the house. You may not always live in that place you're getting, and if you can move it at all, you will probably have to completely rebuild it when you do move.

If your heart is set on an IB subwoofer, just google on infinite baffle and have fun. I'd stick to the in-home designs and avoid the car subwoofer designs.

There seem to plenty of good standard DIY subwoofers available. I’m sure others here can recommend even more than I know about.

Parts Express offers a number of well received subwoofer drivers and plate amps. I know of three more standard designs that I would be interested in building. Of these three, I’ve heard the Quatro and the Drake.

Dayton 15” Quatro
Go to Paul O’Neil’s speaker page http://home.stx.rr.com/poneal/index.html?Page=Speakers, and click on the Dayton 15” Quatro Subwoofer. The Dayton 15” Quatro driver (part #295-860) is a bargain at $86 US. It works well with the SA240 plate amp (part # 300-804) also a good deal at $129 US. I believe that Paul’s design is the standard box that Parts Express recommends for this driver.

Dayton RS High Fidelity 12"
Parts Express has some newer aluminum subwoofer drivers, that are getting lots of attention among DIY builders. John Krutke designed a sub in a 2 ft³ box using the Dayton RSS315HF 12” High Fidelity RS Subwoofer (part #295-464, $130), coupled with the Dayton HPSA500 Sub Amp (part #300-806 $299). He doesn’t list this design on his web page, but I have a copy that I can send you by email if you are interested. I saved it because it showed in good detail how he cross-braced the interior of the box. It should cost about $480 for parts, wood and finishing is extra.

Dayton RS High Output 12"
A somewhat more expensive, but similar design, is shown on the Parts Express Project Showcase page, called The Drake http://www.************.com/projectshowcase/drake/index.html. It uses the RSS315 HO High Output RS Subwoofer (part # 295-466 $130) coupled with the Dayton HPSA1000 Sub Amp (part #300-808 $398). It uses the high output version of the 12” RS subwoofer in a smaller cabinet than for the HF version of this driver with a higher powered amp.

Any of these will provide plenty of clean bass to go with either music or movies.

By the way I looked up your Kef speakers and they seem quite good. Tell us more about them. You mentioned your amplifier but did not mention a HT pre amp or processor? What do you have, and how do you plan to hook in a subwoofer?
 
rlammi

rlammi

Junior Audioholic
First project

Hey Schultz ,
The I /B subwoofer isn't actually that hard you just need to see what design you want and then get the drivers and the amp and from what I hear ,and will litterally be hearing mine in about a week ,they rock with clean low low bass .check out there site before you make a decision .I built a box sub also and was very happy with it for a first project ,but I am jumping into the I /B thing head first .just check out this link http://ibsubwoofers.proboards51.com/index.cgi:D
good luck
 
S

Schultz

Audiophyte
box vs. infinite baffle, Kef XQ1 & amp-sub configuration

Okay -
I've waffled for awhile about all this, but now I've decided that I'll build a box sub first. The reason is that I really need to be able to test it out around the room - and in fact from what I've read I would need a portable sub in order to gauge where an IB sub openning should go. The I'll shelve the IB sub plans for awhile (but rlammi - thanks for the link... I'll check it just in case :rolleyes: ).

Swerd, I am interested in the plans for the Dayton Hi-Fi 12". I've been looking over drivers for awhile and that's the one I'm after.

A final question on alternate sub designs: how about that sonotuble sub? I just love the design, is all. :) (honest - I'm going with a straight box - that's that.)

Kef XQ1 - Swerd, these really are gorgeous speakers, and they were very clearly superior to my ear when I auditioned them, but then I wasn't comparing them against very top end speakers, either (Krell & Infinity.... I'm also familiar with some Axiom and Paradigm speakers). I'd like to hear them side-by-side with a comparable paradigm, but time will tell.

I chose them because Kef is associated with very crisp but non-aggressive sound - I love a pretty vast range of music but would rather baby a classical album than heavy metal, you know? The other thing I read about them was their spatial neutrality - and this I think I can vouch for... right now I'm in a cramped little apartment and the speakers are in a room of maybe 9' x 10' - and both cramped in a CORNER. Not ideal, but they do sound fine as can be and evenly throughout the room.

I don't feel very comfortable stating opinons on sound with my limited experience, but so far - discounting the bottom end, obviously - these Kef bookshelfs have been fantastic. The true test will come next month, when they'll be given a 12' x 24' room (partitioned in the middle with double french doors). I'll also be able to compare them to some old but good Paradigm bookshelves and some Sonys i know nothing about.

About their finish, I've seen their equal but not better.

About the setup - my SimAudio i-5 is an integrated amp with no sub-out, so I intended to use speaker level inputs on the sub (which I understand take the amp output, utilise the low end and then pass the high end signal along to speakers). This could obviously affect the choice of sub amp - I don't know, but I'll keep that in mind. Failing this, I also have a separate Yamaha Natural Sound integrated and a Behringer power amp to choose from... I could conceivably run the SimAudio's pre-out ("monitor") to a second amp to feed the sub. Or am I dreaming?
 
rlammi

rlammi

Junior Audioholic
diy project

Hey Schultz ,
I don't see why you could'nt run the preout to the other amp ,that is kind of how i had mine when i had an hk give it a try with some speakers you have and see how it sounds , i use a behringer a500 for a sub amp right now .
Another option on sub would be from gr-research they have a sealed 12 inch sub with passive radiator the speakers are only 129.95 and the box is only 2.4 cubic feet so it isn't to big ,check out this link this is the one I built ,justy another option ,not pushing their product ,it is just in a good price range for a first project and the plans are easy to follow http://community.webshots.com/user/rlammi100
good luck with which ever one you choose ,let us know how it goes and how it sounds :D
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Schultz said:
Swerd, I am interested in the plans for the Dayton Hi-Fi 12". I've been looking over drivers for awhile and that's the one I'm after.
You have mail.

Schultz said:
My SimAudio i-5 is an integrated amp with no sub-out, so I intended to use speaker level inputs on the sub (which I understand take the amp output, utilise the low end and then pass the high end signal along to speakers). This could obviously affect the choice of sub amp - I don't know, but I'll keep that in mind. Failing this, I also have a separate Yamaha Natural Sound integrated and a Behringer power amp to choose from... I could conceivably run the SimAudio's pre-out ("monitor") to a second amp to feed the sub. Or am I dreaming?
The Dayton HPSA 500 sub amp only takes preamp level inputs thru two RCA jacks. That's perfect for the preamp-out jacks from your integrated amp. Just run a pair of RCA audio interconnect cables between them and you are good to go. The Bash 500 amp will take either speaker level or preamp level (also called line level) inputs. So you choose whichever you like. Pay attention to overall dimensions of the plate amps - which one fits better on the back of the subwoofer cabinet may be the deciding factor.
 
Biscokid

Biscokid

Audioholic
Dennis Murphy also made the X-overs for the Salk HT3s. What amazing looking speakers and I hear they are great sounding also. I should get a chance to listen to a pair this summer which i am jazzed about!
 
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