Beginner, Help Learning/Planning New System

[computergeek13]

Greetings, I recently caught the bug while visiting a client's house and hearing/seeing what seemed to be a well laid-out home theater system.

I want to build my own from components, but have some troubles interpreting alot of the information.

Anyone have some good sites to begin research?

Ive spent around a weeks time at night reading up on receivers, pre processors, speakers and the like.

Recapping the little i have learned:
I want to spend around 1000-1500 on the receiver.
I wanted two floor mounted front standing speakers, one really nice center speaker, and 2 rear speakers for surround, also a subwoofer for completeness.

I live in a condo shared with a few other people - so i dont need a ton of bass. I do however want great sound quality. I mostly watch movies but radio/cd/music will be used some too.

This is for my bedroom setup. A room 19' by 14' by 8' high. I have hardwood floors if that matters.

The first two receivers i was looking at were the SONY STR-DA5300CS and the DENON 3808CI. I dont know if i need that much power for a room this size, but i do want to future proof with the added HDMI 1.3 hookups and Dolby sound.

The only speaker site i have researched is the POLK AUDIO site, mainly because it had a lot of informative pages detailing setup/etc.

I could spend around $2000 on speakers, but again, i am looking for quality not massively loud sound. If there are acceptable choices around $1000 anyone can recommend i could definately entertain those opinions.

Other than that, I do need a AV Rack, i own a SONY Bravia 32" LCD TV that i will wall mount when i find a rack suitable for audio system.

I have a TIVO box, a SONY DVD player, and would like atleast a 5-6 shelf rack to place under the TV.

I appreciate the help and any suggested reading that could be sent my way.
I will continue to scour these forums for advice. Thanks again.

 

[trnqk7]

I would suggest looking at Axiom speakers, you could get the M60's, VP150, and QS8's for about 2k...look at the Denon 2808 as well, you can find it for about 1.1k. The RBH TK series sounded great on movies when I demoed them and they will come in a little cheaper than the Axioms for a 5 channel setup. I haven't suggested any subs-so keep that in mind. People around here like Hsu and SVS as well as a few others. Sounds like you want something small in the sub dept though-the SB12-Plus from SVS fits the bill as do some others from Velodyne and Sunfire. Price may be starting to get up too high for the build you are describing with the aforementioned subs. Perhaps others have some experience with other small subs that are less expensive...I believe av123 has the x-sub which should be cheaper and small as well. Just my 2cents...

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

There's probably not much difference among receivers, so I would spend no more than $800 on the Onkyo 805, which has all the latest HDMI-1.3, TrueHD, & DTS-MA decoders, and enough power.

As for speakers, everyone will tell you that you need to audition, for free, of course.

I think it might be cool to check out Aperion speakers. They allow FREE shipping to you and FREE shipping back to them (30-day return policy)!

I would just try out the two main front speakers, like the 533-PT, which contain built-in subwoofers. Thus, you might not even need to buy a separate subwoofer if you DON'T need all the BASS. If you don't like the speakers, just give them a call and send back the speakers for free, and they will credit you back your money.

Home audition is best, but at least audition in stores.

 

[trnqk7]

Onkyo is a good brand as well-I owned a Onkyo 601 several years back that served me very well. I suggested the Denon 2808 only b/c I currently own the 2807 and would expect it performs the same with the addition of the new codecs. For sure consider Onkyo and a lot of people like some of the H/K receivers around here too. Just pick one that has the features you are looking for at a price you are comfortable with.

 

[tricube]

polk speakers

Polk is a good bang for the buck speaker option. I would suggest going to audition speakers at the closest high end speaker store near you. listen to some really good speakers and determine what speaker nuiance strike your fancy. then when you go to the tweeter, Myer Emco's of the world, you will be able to listen for your nuiance.

Also, try and keep your front channels the same brand and style of speaker. 80% of all movie sound comes out of the center channel and you will want the left and right speakers to have similar sound.

If looks are important, look at the extruded aluminum products from companies such as Canton, and Pinnacle Speakers (another bang for the buck) speaker company.

 

[the grunt]

Anyone have some good sites to begin research?

If you haven’t looked at it already, I found this a good starting place along with some of the other links under the “What to Buy” menu on the home page.

http://www.audioholics.com/buying-guides/system-buying-guides/

I’ve spent around a weeks time at night reading up on receivers, pre processors, speakers and the like…I want to spend around 1000-1500 on the receiver.

What AcuDefTechGuy said.

I wanted two floor mounted front standing speakers, one really nice center speaker, and 2 rear speakers for surround, also a subwoofer for completeness.

Try to demo as many speakers as you can in your room. Again AcuDeftechGuy makes a good point to try Aperion. You could listen to them in your room and then post back here with your impressions. Many people here will have heard what you try and my be able to give you better feedback on what else to try if there is something you don’t like about their sound. For the record I own Axiom’s Epic 80/500 5.1.

Other that just a couple ideas. Since you said this is mostly for movies then you could save some money and get all bookshelf speakers up front including the center if you can fit one. Besides saving money on floor-standers and a specialized center, you could have three identical speakers up front which is generally considered and ideal situation. Add a good subwoofer and you’d have a nice setup. I would only get floor-standing main speakers if you want to spend the money to get what you really want right now and or plan to listen to lots of 2.0 music. The front bookshelf speakers can always be used later as rears in a 7.1 configuration if you upgrade your mains. I almost did this but decided I wanted to do more stereo listening and to future proof my system for a larger room later.

The only speaker I will wholeheartedly recommend are the Axiom QS8 or QS4 surrounds. Simply unbelievable!

I live in a condo shared with a few other people - so i dont need a ton of bass.

You might want to consider a tactile transducer. I live in an apartment and didn’t want to scare the neighbor kids into thinking there was an earthquake again (sub volume way to high when calibrating) so I got a Buttkicker. It lets me feel the bass without the neighbors also feeling it.

Other than that, I do need a AV Rack

It can certainly help keep things organized. My setup is temporary (apartment) so I just bought a black metal storage rack a Home Depot. Cheap not elegant but looks ok and plenty of ventilation

Cheers,
Dean

 

[computergeek13]

Thanks for the advice so far, I will look into those receivers mentioned. I figured id spend alot on a receiver now to future proof, but if you think a 800 dollar model is just as good.. heck.. why not.

I liked the look of the front towers, and i read that the center channel does most of the work with movies, so ill spend the most money with those.

Are the front towers that have a powered subwoofer inside as good as the combo tower and seperate subwoofer?

Or is it more a space saver to sacrifice sub bass power by including it in a tower?

I saw a lot of glass and plastic AV racks, will they vibrate at all? Are there any premium brands?

My sony tv is 32" and only 780p i think.... Am i screwed if i aim for 1080p with this set? Its the Sony KDL-XBR1 - Bravia about 2 years old.

Or will it use the receivers 1080p ?

still a little vague on most of the terms.

 

[gus6464]

Your budget ratios are a little off. Spend most of your money on speakers as that will get you the best sound instead of a receiver. Any mid grade receiver in the $500-700 range can power most speakers just fine. Spend close to $3000 on speakers the rest on receiver. That little $800 or so bump can get you into a very good sub and 5 better speakers.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

...I figured I'd spend a lot on a receiver now to future proof, but if you think a 800 dollar model is just as good.. heck.. why not...Are the front towers that have a powered subwoofer inside as good as the combo tower and seperate subwoofer?

If you had bought a $6,000 Denon 5805 or $5,000 Onkyo NR1000, you would still be buying a NEW receiver!!!

Why? If they changed the HARDWARE (TrueHD & DTS-MA & HDMI-1.3), you have no choice but to change receiver. You can't just change the SOFTWARE.

The built-in powered subwoofer in the tower will not be as good as a separate subwoofer, but if you don't want a lot of bass and need to save space, it is a good option.

 

[computergeek13]

those axiom qs8 v2 look nice - i will try a set of those for the rears.

I think i will get a seperate subwoofer in case i move into a house sooner than later. I dont necesarrily like the sound of the powered tower, but i am planning visits to the local home theater stores here.

Just trying to brush up on knowledge before i arrive.

What center channels do you guys recommend? Still suggest the aperions and axioms? I saw definitive brand listed on a few guys sigs.

When you say stick to the same brand for fronts... do you mean center and front speakers should be same manufacturer? or just same speaker set for front towers?

thanks again for the help.

Also im comparing the onkyo TX-SR805, as suggested vs the Denon[AVR-2808CI] - do they match up pretty evenly? would anyone suggest the one over the other for any reason?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Also im comparing the onkyo TX-SR805, as suggested vs the Denon[AVR-2808CI] - do they match up pretty evenly? would anyone suggest the one over the other for any reason?

I would take the Onkyo 805 over the Denon 2808 for 3 reasons.

1) More Power Output on the Onkyo 805 (130wpc vs 110wpc)
2) These newer Onkyo receivers seem to have outstanding crosstalk, frequency response, and THD+N according to Home Theater Magazine
3) More HDMI Inputs on the Onkyo (3 vs 2)

 

[trnqk7]

those axiom qs8 v2 look nice - i will try a set of those for the rears.

I think i will get a seperate subwoofer in case i move into a house sooner than later. I dont necesarrily like the sound of the powered tower, but i am planning visits to the local home theater stores here.

Just trying to brush up on knowledge before i arrive.

What center channels do you guys recommend? Still suggest the aperions and axioms? I saw definitive brand listed on a few guys sigs.

When you say stick to the same brand for fronts... do you mean center and front speakers should be same manufacturer? or just same speaker set for front towers?

thanks again for the help.

Also im comparing the onkyo TX-SR805, as suggested vs the Denon[AVR-2808CI] - do they match up pretty evenly? would anyone suggest the one over the other for any reason?

Same brand for fronts means the front left and right as well as the center, it's suggested because of what's called timbre matching (they should all sound the same tonally so voices sound correct). Any of the three brands you listed should serve you well going by what people on the forum use. They are good places to at least start looking!

Onkyo vs. Denon-I'm not sure you can go wrong with either one. I would lean to Denon, but I own a Denon. I have also owned Onkyo and can say, without a doubt, that it was a great receiver and I never had any issues at all with it. I upgraded to my Denon b/c I needed more connectivity and it was just a year or so before Onkyo came out with their latest options, so they weren't on the table at the time. Bottom line, both offer a good, quality product that should treat you well. Other than cost, between the two, you should choose based on the flexibility of setup (assignable amps, bass management, etc) and visual appeal (Denon's in my opinion have a "cleaner" faceplate that I enjoy for aesthetic reasons). Can't go wrong with either, as I said before.

 

[the grunt]

What center channels do you guys recommend? Still suggest the aperions and axioms?

Ideally you should make the center speaker the same as your mains. Just like you would want to use the same two speakers not completely different ones in a stereo only setup. If you can’t then you should try to get a center speaker is timber matched to your left/right main speakers. This usually means a speaker designed to work specifically with those mains. In other words from the same product line from the same manufacturer.

Some people have had luck integrating center speakers from one manufacturer with mains from another but it just makes things more problematic. I would not recommend either Axiom center, the VP100 or VP150, unless using Axiom mains and you couldn’t match the mains or even use a M22 as a center. I own a VP150 and seldom use it. I only use it when I have to turn up the center channel volume separate from the mains because the center channel track on the source is recorded to low. The reason I don’t recommend it is that it’s performance with various movies is inconsistent. It blends perfectly with the mains in some movies but with other movies it’s timber doesn’t seem to match as well. This may just be a function of the movie being mixed poorly however I’ve never had this happen when putting the center channel through the mains. It may be just me or my room and I’m not giving the speaker a fair chance but at the end of the day why on earth would I want to take my fuller ranged M80 mains and try to tune them down to sound like a more limited range dedicated center speaker.

I just use a phantom center which is where you play the center channel through the main left/right speakers. This works for me because I don’t have seating going to far left or right of the sweat spot so it still sounds like the center is coming from the center of the screen. If people will be sitting close to either side of the listening area or close to either main speakers you need a center to anchor the front soundstage to the screen.

There are several advantages to using a phantom center especially if you have good main speakers. First, as you noted, the center channel carries lots of the most important audio in movies. So why wouldn’t any sane person want to play that audio through the best speakers they have, usually the mains if they can (as noted many people need a dedicated center speaker). Also if you sit close like me (7.5 feet) to the screen I can clearly hear that the center speaker is above the screen. No such problem with a phantom center as the main’s tweeters and midranges are close to ear level as is the middle of my screen. You might want to evaluate your setup and see if a phantom center would work for you and put the money you save toward better main speakers. Just a thought.

As for the receiver, I’m quite happy with my Denon 2807, however I would side with the Onkyo 805 over the Denon 2808 for the reasons above and because Denon writes some of the hardest to comprehend manual I’ve seen. Once you learn “Denonspeak” and “Denongrammer” they’re ok but if you are new to HT receivers there is a learning curve.

those axiom qs8 v2 look nice - i will try a set of those for the rears.

Wait till you hear them.


Dean

 

[computergeek13]

those axiom qs8 v2 look nice - i will try a set of those for the rears.

Wait till you hear them.

is that a good wait till you hear them ? or is that a wait to make your decision until you hear them?

and thank you for the advice on phantom mains, when i demo some i will try that.

 

[computergeek13]

saw this disclaimer on the axiom site:
(Note: the M80 tower's impedance is 4 ohms. An A/V receiver rated to drive 4-ohm loads without overheating or shutting down is recommended. Call Axiom for recommended receivers that will drive 4-ohm M80s

does that onkyo receiver handle 4 ohms? i was trying to decipher myself but didnt see what line i needed to verify.

One set said a seperate power amplifier is needed. Do you recommend using the receiver or buying a seperate amp? Or is the seperate amplifier mostly used for larger rooms louder music etc.

 

[computergeek13]

Some people have had luck integrating center speakers from one manufacturer with mains from another but it just makes things more problematic. I would not recommend either Axiom center, the VP100 or VP150, unless using Axiom mains and you couldn’t match the mains or even use a M22 as a center. I own a VP150 and seldom use it.

ok, i reread this several times. The axiom mains have been highly recommended.
I like the looks of them, the price seems right...

Then i read to match the fronts, keep all the speakers the same.

Ok got that.

Then you say, the axiom centers are not all that great, inconsistantly.

So if i do go with a center, is there one you recommend? Or just leave it out all together?

I looked at the aperions, the intimus line had some nice speakers as far as i can tell.. The price on the mains are about half that of the axioms....
Leads me to believe i should just go with the axioms...

So in other words, im confused. heh.

The aperions are cheaper, is the quality good? Should i just stick with the axioms?

To be honest, i would feel better with a center channel... but if others think a phantom center works then ill try it.


sorry for the many questions, just want to be sure before i plunge the money into it.

 

[the grunt]

is that a good wait till you hear them ?

Yes, it’s a very good wait till you hear them. The QS speakers are fantastic.

and thank you for the advice on phantom mains, when i demo some i will try that.

That’s a good idea to try out as many things as you can, I only tossed the idea of using a phantom center to let you know what options you had.

So if i do go with a center, is there one you recommend? Or just leave it out all together?

If you go Axiom I would get an M22 for the center if you can fit one above or below your screen. If you can’t fit one then by all means try the VP100 or VP150, most people like them fine so your experience may be different than mine since you are listening in a very different room. There’s just a few of us who sometimes have issues with blending them with the M80s and M60s. Part of my prejudice against the VP centers is just that the M80s an QS8s are just so damm good at what they do the VP150 just can’t keep up. And no center could really keep up with the M80s unless it was another M80. That’s why I recommend an M22 for a center since it’s a step closer to the M80 than the VP150 is.

To be honest, i would feel better with a center channel... but if others think a phantom center works then ill try it.

Most people would say you must have a center speaker. I’m probably one of the few who doesn’t need one most of the time and prefers running the center channel through the mains. If you even slightly think you might want to have a center speaker then I’d suggest you get one and try it out you can always return it if you decide you don’t really need it.

does that onkyo receiver handle 4 ohms? i was trying to decipher myself but didnt see what line i needed to verify.

Best to post in the Axiom forums or call Axiom as they are constantly updating the list of what works best with the M80s most receivers can drive them without a problem. I use a Denon 2807 and it can play much louder than like and way louder than my apartment neighbors would let me get away with. I wouldn’t worry about getting a separate amp unless you want to play them loud enough to damage your hearing. You are right that a separate amp is only need to play them loud in larger rooms.

The aperions are cheaper, is the quality good? Should i just stick with the axioms

I wouldn’t write off the Aperions just because they cost less. I think they offer to pay they shipping both ways if you try them and decide you don’t like them. So if you have the time why not try them. If after demo-ing speakers it comes down to Aperion and Axiom order them both and return the ones that are the lesser value to you.

Don’t get me wrong I love my Axiom speakers but you really should try to listen to as many different speakers as you can before buying since what each person likes is very subjective.

Sorry for being confusing probably throwing to much out at the same time.

Cheers,
Dean

 

[computergeek13]

thank you very much grunt, that last post cleared up many questions.

 

[the grunt]

If you haven't checked it out already you might want to go to the Axiom forum’s “Auditioning Axioms in Your Area” thread in the “Hearing Things” subforum. At the beginning of that thread is a list of people willing to demo their speakers. If you don’t see anything close listed you can post that you are interested and/or send a PM to Amie who I believe maintains that list and may have other options for you.

 

[computergeek13]

well i found the onkyo TR805 receiver for a good price online so i ordered that today. Now i have to nail down speakers...

so i visited a few home theater showrooms today. I thought i was prepared but my first stop yielded none of the speakers mentioned here. to be honest, the mirage speakers he demo'd for me sounded great.

He also leaned me towards a set of bookshelf speakers for the front, on 2 foot stands, since this is for my bedroom and large floor standing units would just bounce off the foot of the bed.. Sounds like solid advice to me... what is the opinion here?

the mirage speakers i listened too were tiny, but omnidirectional. Again, a solid feature in theory for my mind, but what is the group's consensus here?

The second store had a set of definitive series, it was a set of the cheaper $1400 package for 5 speakers all bookshelf sized and the sub.

The third store i listened to some B&W speakers that sounded really nice. They also had Monitor.. shoot i forget the final set... Left my pen at the 2nd store...

Anyhow.. I really want to try those axiom QS8 for my rears.. I still need to decide on fronts and center...

Does anyone think the B&W 600 or 700 series would make good fronts on stands for me?

I know its a lot, but i am a little overwhelmed and now my plans have changed sort of...

thanks so much.