Beginner-Advice for new build: KEF LS50 & Rythmic L12 Subwoofer w/ Nvidia Shield

B

Belu

Audiophyte
Hello,

I would like some advise on my setup and controls, and I would like to simplify the setup if possible. Please let me know if I am missing crucial components or I am doing things that aren’t recommended. My use case will be 70% music 30% movies. I am planning to turn on/off equipment with a standard power bar with surge protection and a remote-control electrical outlet. See block diagram attached.

Below is a list of current equipment I own, purchased used and planning to buy.

Planning to buy:
DAC – Schitt Modius
PowerAmp – Schiit Vidar
DSP – miniDSP 2x4 HD
Cables and wiring – Blue Jean speaker cables

Purchased used and on their way:
Speakers- KEF LS50s
Subwoofer - 1x Rythmik L12
Pre-amp – Schiit Saga

Already Own:
Chromecast Audio, Fibre splitter 2 in 1 out, TV, Nvidia Shield

Operation:
1) Chromecast audio-> DAC-> pre-amp->miniDSP->power amplifier & subwoofer
2) PC (plex) -> Nvidia shield -> TV -> DAC-> pre-amp->miniDSP->power amplifier & subwoofer
3) PC (plex) -> Nvidia shield - USB to DAC not sure if this is possible

Questions
Q1) Are the wiring done correctly, especially from DSP to subwoofer?

Q2) Would using the remote-control outlet damage equipment such as DAC and power amps?

Q3) If I take out the pre-amp and DAC out of the system and use the miniDSP DAC, how is the volume control via Shield->TV-> miniDSP DAC?

Q4) I’m currently using the fibre splitter to switch between Chromecast Audio and Shield seamlessly by connecting & disconnecting from Android phone. Are there better solutions that would improve the sound quality noticeably? I’d imagine the optical signal is digital so there should be no losses from the $10 dollar splitter.

Q5) Is It possible to add a third LS50 as a centre speaker to this setup? All the outputs of miniDSP are occupied, or could I split output 4 to two subwoofers simultaneously (given the subs operate in the same settings)

Q6) Any tips on making operation 3 to work? This way the TV could be left off

Thanks a lot in advance for any advice!
 

Attachments

P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Hello,

I would like some advise on my setup and controls, and I would like to simplify the setup if possible. Please let me know if I am missing crucial components or I am doing things that aren’t recommended. My use case will be 70% music 30% movies. I am planning to turn on/off equipment with a standard power bar with surge protection and a remote-control electrical outlet. See block diagram attached.

Below is a list of current equipment I own, purchased used and planning to buy.

Planning to buy:
DAC – Schitt Modius
PowerAmp – Schiit Vidar
DSP – miniDSP 2x4 HD
Cables and wiring – Blue Jean speaker cables

Purchased used and on their way:
Speakers- KEF LS50s
Subwoofer - 1x Rythmik L12
Pre-amp – Schiit Saga

Already Own:
Chromecast Audio, Fibre splitter 2 in 1 out, TV, Nvidia Shield

Operation:
1) Chromecast audio-> DAC-> pre-amp->miniDSP->power amplifier & subwoofer
2) PC (plex) -> Nvidia shield -> TV -> DAC-> pre-amp->miniDSP->power amplifier & subwoofer
3) PC (plex) -> Nvidia shield - USB to DAC not sure if this is possible

Questions
Q1) Are the wiring done correctly, especially from DSP to subwoofer?

Q2) Would using the remote-control outlet damage equipment such as DAC and power amps?

Q3) If I take out the pre-amp and DAC out of the system and use the miniDSP DAC, how is the volume control via Shield->TV-> miniDSP DAC?

Q4) I’m currently using the fibre splitter to switch between Chromecast Audio and Shield seamlessly by connecting & disconnecting from Android phone. Are there better solutions that would improve the sound quality noticeably? I’d imagine the optical signal is digital so there should be no losses from the $10 dollar splitter.

Q5) Is It possible to add a third LS50 as a centre speaker to this setup? All the outputs of miniDSP are occupied, or could I split output 4 to two subwoofers simultaneously (given the subs operate in the same settings)

Q6) Any tips on making operation 3 to work? This way the TV could be left off

Thanks a lot in advance for any advice!
That's a lot to digest, but my initial impression is that it seems unnecessarily complicated. I understand it is a hard concept for a two channel person to consider an AVR, but in my experience, one can do better (vs what you are planning on doing) just bite the bullet and get an AVR such as the latest Yamaha, Denon, or Marantz's and a better measured DAC than the Schiit. You can easily pick one from ASR's top bucket group.

I have used a Rythmik sub with my LS50 for a couple years, they could sound very good with or without using REQ, and with or without using the minidsp 2XHD. So I know you can save some money and enjoy the simplicity of a less cluttered system. The LS50 is not designed for high spl so it will do well with a 100-140 W rated well measured AVR. In fact I have done comparison listening and measurements comparing the LS50 using a little AVR-X3400H and a 250/400 W 8/4 Ohm rated separate preamp/power amp and external DACs. Heard no difference whatsoever.

If you are set on your planned path, since you have included two very nicely prepared block diagram, I would spend some time on them and get back to you later.

Example:
Topping D30Pro Review (Balanced DAC) | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum
1613052957332.png
 
nathan_h

nathan_h

Audioholic
Hello,

I would like some advise on my setup and controls, and I would like to simplify the setup if possible. Please let me know if I am missing crucial components or I am doing things that aren’t recommended. My use case will be 70% music 30% movies. I am planning to turn on/off equipment with a standard power bar with surge protection and a remote-control electrical outlet. See block diagram attached.

Below is a list of current equipment I own, purchased used and planning to buy.

Planning to buy:
DAC – Schitt Modius
PowerAmp – Schiit Vidar
DSP – miniDSP 2x4 HD
Cables and wiring – Blue Jean speaker cables

Purchased used and on their way:
Speakers- KEF LS50s
Subwoofer - 1x Rythmik L12
Pre-amp – Schiit Saga

Already Own:
Chromecast Audio, Fibre splitter 2 in 1 out, TV, Nvidia Shield

Operation:
1) Chromecast audio-> DAC-> pre-amp->miniDSP->power amplifier & subwoofer
2) PC (plex) -> Nvidia shield -> TV -> DAC-> pre-amp->miniDSP->power amplifier & subwoofer
3) PC (plex) -> Nvidia shield - USB to DAC not sure if this is possible

Questions
Q1) Are the wiring done correctly, especially from DSP to subwoofer?

Q2) Would using the remote-control outlet damage equipment such as DAC and power amps?

Q3) If I take out the pre-amp and DAC out of the system and use the miniDSP DAC, how is the volume control via Shield->TV-> miniDSP DAC?

Q4) I’m currently using the fibre splitter to switch between Chromecast Audio and Shield seamlessly by connecting & disconnecting from Android phone. Are there better solutions that would improve the sound quality noticeably? I’d imagine the optical signal is digital so there should be no losses from the $10 dollar splitter.

Q5) Is It possible to add a third LS50 as a centre speaker to this setup? All the outputs of miniDSP are occupied, or could I split output 4 to two subwoofers simultaneously (given the subs operate in the same settings)

Q6) Any tips on making operation 3 to work? This way the TV could be left off

Thanks a lot in advance for any advice!
I created a frankenstein system like this for my living room.....and PENG is right. I should have just purchased an AVR.

Would have been much easier to manage, more flexible over time, and be much more friendly from a user standpoint (remote controls etc)......and less expensive, while still sound great.

And it would have let me get lossless audio from video sources if I every move beyond two speakers.

---

That said, what you describe should mostly work except I am not sure where you have a remote control for volume and for selecting sources. Maybe the pre amp lets you control volume with a remote? Maybe the DAC remote control lets you choose an input on the DAC?

And it is not clear that the shield will provide USB audio to the DAC that way and whether that would be in sync with the video that is following a different output path. So you will probably end up running a tosklink cable from the TV to the DAC.

And note that many toslink splitters like you spec here are ONLY splitters (work one way) and NOT a way to combine two sources, have no way to select one versus the other, etc. So be prepared to convert the toslink output from the TV into coax digital so you can use a separate input on the DAC.
 
T

TankTop5

Audioholic Samurai
A Topping DX7 Pro with the active KEF’s and a Sub with DSP like the SVS 2000 pro will eliminate all your complexity and get you amazing results. You may consider Dynaudio Core studio monitors as they also have excellent DSP and easily rival the KEF’s.
 
B

Belu

Audiophyte
That's a lot to digest, but my initial impression is that it seems unnecessarily complicated. I understand it is a hard concept for a two channel person to consider an AVR, but in my experience, one can do better (vs what you are planning on doing) just bite the bullet and get an AVR such as the latest Yamaha, Denon, or Marantz's and a better measured DAC than the Schiit. You can easily pick one from ASR's top bucket group.

I have used a Rythmik sub with my LS50 for a couple years, they could sound very good with or without using REQ, and with or without using the minidsp 2XHD. So I know you can save some money and enjoy the simplicity of a less cluttered system. The LS50 is not designed for high spl so it will do well with a 100-140 W rated well measured AVR. In fact I have done comparison listening and measurements comparing the LS50 using a little AVR-X3400H and a 250/400 W 8/4 Ohm rated separate preamp/power amp and external DACs. Heard no difference whatsoever.

If you are set on your planned path, since you have included two very nicely prepared block diagram, I would spend some time on them and get back to you later.

Example:
Topping D30Pro Review (Balanced DAC) | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum
View attachment 44470
Hi Peng, thank you so much for taking the time to read and respond.

This is part 1 of my response as I keep getting blocked for posting for spam-like or contains inappropriate elements….

I agree my approach is quite cluttered and turning the system on and off will require multiple controls and takes time getting used to. While the AVR solution is more compact and convenient, I am not totally convinced it will sound as good as a dedicated power amplifier. This is because I have read several reviews that LS50s are pretty power demanding and requires a beefy power amp to bring out its full potential.

My living room is pretty bad as a listening room as it’s asymmetrical, would you think REQ will result in noticeable improvements in my case? Please see room layout attached.

I can save money on buying a high output AVR (100-140W per suggested) over the pre-amp, DSP, and power amp combo, and get 95%? of the performance. And I go with the AVR solution, I can skip buying a dedicated DAC and use the TOSLINK input on the AVR, is this correct?
 

Attachments

B

Belu

Audiophyte
I created a frankenstein system like this for my living room.....and PENG is right. I should have just purchased an AVR.

Would have been much easier to manage, more flexible over time, and be much more friendly from a user standpoint (remote controls etc)......and less expensive, while still sound great.

And it would have let me get lossless audio from video sources if I every move beyond two speakers.

---

That said, what you describe should mostly work except I am not sure where you have a remote control for volume and for selecting sources. Maybe the pre amp lets you control volume with a remote? Maybe the DAC remote control lets you choose an input on the DAC?

And it is not clear that the shield will provide USB audio to the DAC that way and whether that would be in sync with the video that is following a different output path. So you will probably end up running a tosklink cable from the TV to the DAC.

And note that many toslink splitters like you spec here are ONLY splitters (work one way) and NOT a way to combine two sources, have no way to select one versus the other, etc. So be prepared to convert the toslink output from the TV into coax digital so you can use a separate input on the DAC.
Hi Nathan,

Could you elaborate on what you mean by lossless audio from video source? If I were to get future surround speakers, I wouldn't be able to do so with DSP right?

The Pre-amp has a dedicated remote control with volume and input select, so it should function as expected.

I also have my doubts in getting Nvidia Shield to export audio directly to DAC via USB. My current plan and my current setup is such:

Shield -HDMI- TV -TOSLINK- Optical 2 In 1 Out - Stereo Amp

Also connected to the Optical 2 In 1 Out is chromecast audio Toslink, but it doesn't send signal when not connected to Android phone. Therefore there's actually no need to select input from DAC or stereo amplifier. It's either Shield on, or Chromecast Audio connected; and when they're both on, it selects the chromecast audio for some reason.

Cheers
 
B

Belu

Audiophyte
A Topping DX7 Pro with the active KEF’s and a Sub with DSP like the SVS 2000 pro will eliminate all your complexity and get you amazing results. You may consider Dynaudio Core studio monitors as they also have excellent DSP and easily rival the KEF’s.
I believe the KEFs LS50 are passive speakers and requires power amp /AVR/ Stereo Amp. Thank you for your suggestion on the Studio monitors but I have already purchased a pair of used LS50s and they're on their way!
 
nathan_h

nathan_h

Audioholic
Hi Nathan,

Could you elaborate on what you mean by lossless audio from video source? If I were to get future surround speakers, I wouldn't be able to do so with DSP right?

The Pre-amp has a dedicated remote control with volume and input select, so it should function as expected.

I also have my doubts in getting Nvidia Shield to export audio directly to DAC via USB. My current plan and my current setup is such:

Shield -HDMI- TV -TOSLINK- Optical 2 In 1 Out - Stereo Amp

Also connected to the Optical 2 In 1 Out is chromecast audio Toslink, but it doesn't send signal when not connected to Android phone. Therefore there's actually no need to select input from DAC or stereo amplifier. It's either Shield on, or Chromecast Audio connected; and when they're both on, it selects the chromecast audio for some reason.

Cheers
Lossless and Lossy do not relate specifically to surround or not.

My point is that if you want to do surround sound in the future, you'd be better off getting an AVR now.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Hi Peng, thank you so much for taking the time to read and respond.

This is part 1 of my response as I keep getting blocked for posting for spam-like or contains inappropriate elements….

I agree my approach is quite cluttered and turning the system on and off will require multiple controls and takes time getting used to. While the AVR solution is more compact and convenient, I am not totally convinced it will sound as good as a dedicated power amplifier. This is because I have read several reviews that LS50s are pretty power demanding and requires a beefy power amp to bring out its full potential.

My living room is pretty bad as a listening room as it’s asymmetrical, would you think REQ will result in noticeable improvements in my case? Please see room layout attached.

I can save money on buying a high output AVR (100-140W per suggested) over the pre-amp, DSP, and power amp combo, and get 95%? of the performance. And I go with the AVR solution, I can skip buying a dedicated DAC and use the TOSLINK input on the AVR, is this correct?
I should be able to have some free time later today so will give you more feedback. By the way, the DAC you picked has been measured, looked good but it won't be my choice for other reasons.

Schiit Modius Balanced DAC Review | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

1613138057566.png
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
I agree my approach is quite cluttered and turning the system on and off will require multiple controls and takes time getting used to.
We all agree your approach will result in something more complex, cluttered, and expensive than needed. If you simplify and go for a decent AVR, you'll thank us later. PENG has quite a bit of experience, and his background as an electrical engineer has made him more than qualified at what constitutes good quality in audio electrical gear. Many of us, including myself, value his opinions in AVRs, pre-amps, and amps, no to leave out other more specialized gear.
While the AVR solution is more compact and convenient, I am not totally convinced it will sound as good as a dedicated power amplifier. This is because I have read several reviews that LS50s are pretty power demanding and requires a beefy power amp to bring out its full potential.
KEF recommends amplifier power in the range of 25-100 Watts/channel for the LS50. It claims a sensitivity of 85 dB with a nominal impedance of 8 ohms.

In it's review of the LS50, Stereophile confirms KEF's 85 dB sensitivity rating, but also says:
Somewhat optimistically specified at 8 ohms, the LS50's impedance (fig.1, solid trace) drops to 4 ohms at 200Hz and to 5.4 ohms at the top of the audioband. The electrical phase angle is generally mild, but the combination of 5.3 ohms and –41° at 135Hz, a frequency where music often has high energy, will make the speaker work at its best with a good, 4 ohm–rated amplifier.
1613144953997.png


I'd agree in general, especially about the dip to 4 ohms at 200 Hz. The LS50 should be considered a 4 ohm speaker, but it doesn't require amplification more powerful than something capable of delivering an honest 25-100 W/channel while driving a 4 ohm load. There are quite a few AVRs capable of that, such as the 105 W/channel Denon AVR-X3500H, X3600H, or X3700H. I know @PENG likes these, and he could suggest others as well.

At a later time, if you absolutely must have a more powerful external amp, the AVRs I mentioned have pre-amp output jacks that allow you to add external amps, while continuing to use the AVR as a pre-amp, DAC, and switch center. Despite what you've been led to believe by advertising or audio reviews, I assure you that doing this will not sacrifice sound quality.
 
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P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Please see my comments in bold italic.

Hello,

I would like some advise on my setup and controls, and I would like to simplify the setup if possible. Please let me know if I am missing crucial components or I am doing things that aren’t recommended. My use case will be 70% music 30% movies. I am planning to turn on/off equipment with a standard power bar with surge protection and a remote-control electrical outlet. See block diagram attached.

Below is a list of current equipment I own, purchased used and planning to buy.

Planning to buy:
DAC – Schitt Modius
PowerAmp – Schiit Vidar
DSP – miniDSP 2x4 HD
Cables and wiring – Blue Jean speaker cables

Purchased used and on their way:
Speakers- KEF LS50s
Subwoofer - 1x Rythmik L12
Pre-amp – Schiit Saga

Already Own:
Chromecast Audio, Fibre splitter 2 in 1 out, TV, Nvidia Shield

Operation:
1) Chromecast audio-> DAC-> pre-amp->miniDSP->power amplifier & subwoofer
2) PC (plex) -> Nvidia shield -> TV -> DAC-> pre-amp->miniDSP->power amplifier & subwoofer
3) PC (plex) -> Nvidia shield - USB to DAC not sure if this is possible

Questions
Q1) Are the wiring done correctly, especially from DSP to subwoofer?

Looks correct to me.

Q2) Would using the remote-control outlet damage equipment such as DAC and power amps?

I don't think so, I have done it.


If I take out the pre-amp and DAC out of the system and use the miniDSP DAC, how is the volume control via Shield->TV-> miniDSP DAC?

That's a tough one, you need a preamp.

Q4) I’m currently using the fibre splitter to switch between Chromecast Audio and Shield seamlessly by connecting & disconnecting from Android phone. Are there better solutions that would improve the sound quality noticeably? I’d imagine the optical signal is digital so there should be no losses from the $10 dollar splitter.

Yes, use an AVR or AVP instead, even a two channel one such as the Marantz NR1200 or Yamaha R-N803 can work. An AVR is better because it has REQ, such as Audyssey XT32 Sub EQHTo or YPAO if you opt for Yamaha's.


Q5) Is It possible to add a third LS50 as a centre speaker to this setup? All the outputs of miniDSP are occupied, or could I split output 4 to two subwoofers simultaneously (given the subs operate in the same settings)

If you go with Denon/Marantz XT32 SubEQ/HT, there is no point keeping the minidsp 2XHD, all it does it add wire clutters, any time you go through it, ext. DAC or not, it will be limited to 96 kHz regardless. If you use two subs, you may even get lucky and could manually dial things to the point of no return anyway.

Q6) Any tips on making operation 3 to work? This way the TV could be left off

Do you have the nvidia shield pro? The pro can do it, but then you will be limited to, or resampled to 192 kHz maximum. I don't believe higher sampling rate is necessary but I wouldn't want to be limited because to me the quality of the source media are much more important than the electronics once you get pass the point of diminishing return. In my experience, many of the best recording/mastering music source can be found from sites such as hdtracks.com but are often in the higher than 24bit/96 KHz and/or higher than 128 DSD
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
This is because I have read several reviews that LS50s are pretty power demanding and requires a beefy power amp to bring out its full potential.
That's the problem, some people keep making comments like that without stating the underlying conditions. Not that they are wrong, but the fact is, it depends on the conditions and/or applications.

For example, when I had the LS50's in a 12X25' room (approx.), even an AVR-X3400H would do fine, but I don't listen anywhere to reference level. Now when I used the same LS50s on my PC desktop, I used a 50 W NAD amp and I can listen to ear damaging level if I wanted to, in fact I am sure a 25 W amp would have been more than enough, that is, getting the LS50's "full potential", in terms of "sound quality" without driving them to their limit.

My living room is pretty bad as a listening room as it’s asymmetrical, would you think REQ will result in noticeable improvements in my case? Please see room layout attached.
I would say yes. Can you move everything 3 ft, +/- away from the windows?

I can save money on buying a high output AVR (100-140W per suggested) over the pre-amp, DSP, and power amp combo, and get 95%? of the performance. And I go with the AVR solution, I can skip buying a dedicated DAC and use the TOSLINK input on the AVR, is this correct?
Based on specs, measurements, and my experience, I would say 95% to 105%:), if you go with the upper midrange models such as RX-A2080, AVR-X4700H, SR7015, MRX-740. It is hard to put a number on it.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
I wish more people would put this much thought into speaker selection, subwoofers and setup instead of quibbling over .00* differences in specs between dacs and amps. Once you reach a certain level those differences are almost certainly not even audible.

Yes, a good mid or upper tier avr would be the path I would choose. Then I'd put all of my effort into the right speakers, setup and room interactions

Not that there's anything wrong with the LS50. I'd say you made a pretty good choice there, but you can get better if you put your DAC/preamp and amp money into the speaker budget.
 
Kingnoob

Kingnoob

Audioholic Samurai
I wish more people would put this much thought into speaker selection, subwoofers and setup instead of quibbling over .00* differences in specs between dacs and amps. Once you reach a certain level those differences are almost certainly not even audible.

Yes, a good mid or upper tier avr would be the path I would choose. Then I'd put all of my effort into the right speakers, setup and room interactions

Not that there's anything wrong with the LS50. I'd say you made a pretty good choice there, but you can get better if you put your DAC/preamp and amp money into the speaker budget.
This is correct no amount of powers going to make a bad speaker sound good ...
I wish I had gotten higher end front 3 speakers instead of Klipch icons. Sale price kind of tricked me I thought they were amazing for a while .
I had more money back then I do now , I couldn’t even get stimulus cuz Non tax filers not employed. Being low in money sucks for audio ...
Actually there-probably a small step up from satellites.
I’d probably had returned my towers if I had known the treble was lacking compared to the center channel and tried a bigger or different Klipch. Fronts mostly do sound effects so I really don’t care ‍...it’s fine if I don’t run phantom center channel.
So don’t test out speakers with a horrible amplifier , but mid level is fine imo .
You wouldn’t Believe how many people want to satellite or Tiny Speakers because they are smaller . And take looks over size , then cry because there Junk .
 
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B

Belu

Audiophyte
Thank you for all your inputs, greatly appreciate it!

I received the KEF speakers last night and hooked them up to my existing Onkyo 9010A integrated amplifier with 44W/ Ch @ 8ohms. The amplifier is probably underpowered to drive these speakers, as Swerd pointed out the impedance drop to about 4 Ohms at 200hz so AVRs with ~100W/ channel well rated AVR is sufficient. I cranked the Onkyo amplifier to 12 o’clock position and the speakers are plenty loud, much louder than my normal listening level. Thanks for linking the measurements, the data have me convinced that a 4 ohm-rated amplifier is all I’ll need for the KEFs.

With your great advices, I am going with either an AVR or integrated amp to simplify the setup. I don’t need the Schiit Saga pre-amp so I’ll sell it.

What are some benefits to choose AVRs over integrated (stereo) amplifiers for my use case?
I am leaning towards upgrading to a higher output integrated amp rather than AVR. Reason is integrated amps have high outputs at lower prices (Yamaha R-N803) compared to AVR (Denon X3400H) and I think adding a second subwoofer is more likely than adding surround speakers in the future.

My use cases and current setup with integrated amp:

1) Music from phone:
Android phone – router – Chromecast Audio– SPDIF – “2 in 1 out SPDIF passive switch”– SPDIF – Integrated Amp – Speakers

2) Music from shield pro using Plex:

PC–Shield– HDMI– TV– SPDIF–“2 in 1 out SPDIF passive switch”– SPDIF – Integrated Amp - Speakers
3) For Movie, the path is same as 2.

AVR Advantage over integrated amp:
-Capacity to add surround speakers in the future

-Capacity to easily add second subs as AVR has more than 1 sub line output (The Rythmik sub does not accept speaker level outputs)

-Remove the cheap $10 “2 in 1 out SPDIF passive switch” from the path. Directly plug the Chromecast audio and the TV SPDIF to AVR, then select input from AVR remote. I am unsure if there will be any improvement in sound quality as it’s digital/optical.

Control wise I have no preference from using AVR remote vs phone. I am currently using my phone to connect & disconnect Chromecast audio. When Chromecast is connected, amplifier outputs Music from phone, and when Chromecast is disconnected, amplifier automatically outputs signal from TV. Probably easier to understand from the graphic on setup.pdf than to explain in words.


Questions:
1.) Integrated amp typically has only one lineout to subwoofer (, I may want to have 2 subs in the future. Can I simply use a splitter cable to send line signals to two subwoofers?

2.) Do integrated amplifiers and AVRs suggested above typically have settings for bass crossovers and room correction? This is one of the reasons I thought integrating with DSP is a good idea.

3.) If I go with AVR. Do I need to worry about HDR compatibilities? I imagine the shield will connect to AVR w/ HDMI and pass through to TV rather than Shield to TV, TV SPIDIF to AVR. Is one way better than the other?
 
nathan_h

nathan_h

Audioholic
1. A single sub output is okay. Even the ones with dual outputs seldom "get it right" and often it is just a y splitter in the box -- or they don't use phase and EQ correctly so you end up only using a single output and splitting the signal yourself, outside the box. If you get serious about configuring multiple subs (which is a fun and useful thing) then you will probably want to get something like a miniDSP 2x4HD to do it right, anyway.

2. Integrated amps often don't have full adjustability in this area. AVRs almost always have full adjustability in this area.

3. To be safe, choose an AVR that allows HDR including Dolby Vision to pass through. This has been pretty standard for several years, but if you are buying a second hand AVR just make sure to double check that it can do this.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I cranked the Onkyo amplifier to 12 o’clock position and the speakers are plenty loud, much louder than my normal listening level.
Volume control knob position does not tell much, other than in general you would try to avoid turning it higher than 12 O'clock, but it really depends on other factors such as the input signal voltage that in turn depends on the kind of device upstream and the source media contents obviously. It also depends on whether the volume control follows a linear scale or log scale? I think most vintage integrated amps would have the linear one. Your A9010 isn't that old and it use an IC to do the job, so I think most likely it has a log scale characteristic.

If it is log scale, you will notice that the level would increase more gently as you turn it up but will increase more rapidly (more sensitive) as you keep cranking it up.

1613314331990.png





I am going with either an AVR or integrated amp to simplify the setup. I don’t need the Schiit Saga pre-amp so I’ll sell it.
That preamp, to me, is a low cost nice toy, but if your goal is transparency, neutral kind of "sound signature", then yes you are better off with an integrated amp, AVR, or a stereo receiver.

What are some benefits to choose AVRs over integrated (stereo) amplifiers for my use case?
Much more expensive integrated amps such as Yamaha's (anything above the A-S801), likely offer cleaner preamp output signal and better audio specs from input to output, but can you tell the difference between 0.01% (that's -80 dB) and 0.001% THD+N, I doubt if even 1% of home users can, unless they live in an anechoic chamber with every device in the signal chain perform at the same level, and the best speakers are used.

More often than not, the likes of the AVR-X3600H, SR6014, RX-A1080 and higher models actually have the critical part such as the preamp volume control, DAC and OP amp ICs that are superior in audio specs, relative to the likes of the entry level integrated amps such as the Onkyo A9010's. You need to go up to at least something like Yamaha's A-S701 and higher models, to match such AVRs in audio specs.

Advantages of the AVRs mentioned are 1) better price to performance ratio, 2) flexibility, example: more inputs, you typical get a few analog, at least 1 optical, coax, USB, and of course HDMI and video capability so you can see what's going on (such as volume/level), 3) Automatic REQ feature so you don't need to bother with those minidsp that costs money, add wire clutter, and don't always do any better. For the same money, the last year model AVRs typically offers such good discount that I dare say 100% of the same you end up with a more powerful unit than a two channel integrated amp. With C-19 going on, there appears to be a shortage of AVRs so I assume it is not as easily to find such discounts. But if you can get something like the AVR-X3600H for under $1,000, it would be a better buy than an integrated amp such as the A-S801.

I am leaning towards upgrading to a higher output integrated amp rather than AVR. Reason is integrated amps have high outputs at lower prices (Yamaha R-N803) compared to AVR (Denon X3400H) and I think adding a second subwoofer is more likely than adding surround speakers in the future.
The R-N803 is a nice unit that I would not hesitate to recommend, but it does not have higher output, the difference is in the multiple decimal points of 1 dB so practically though, so they practically offer the same power output into a 4 ohm resistor load, and that's based on bench test measurements of the X3500H that has the same power amp and power supply as the X3400H. The X3600H beats the R-N803 in dynamic output but again in practice they are equal.

One more important advantage of the AVRs mentioned is that it has multi-channel preamp outputs so if and when you need more power you can connect the pre outs to external power amplifiers. The R-N803 does not have preamp outputs, only line outputs. That, to me is a show stopper but if you are sure you won't ever need more power then obviously it is not an issue.

Questions:
1.) Integrated amp typically has only one lineout to subwoofer (, I may want to have 2 subs in the future. Can I simply use a splitter cable to send line signals to two subwoofers?

2.) Do integrated amplifiers and AVRs suggested above typically have settings for bass crossovers and room correction? This is one of the reasons I thought integrating with DSP is a good idea.

3.) If I go with AVR. Do I need to worry about HDR compatibilities? I imagine the shield will connect to AVR w/ HDMI and pass through to TV rather than Shield to TV, TV SPIDIF to AVR. Is one way better than the other?
1) No, you need subwoofer outputs (, not line outputs unless you are prepare to add an external volume control for the subwoofer.

2) Most AVRs do have bass management features and Room correction, most integrated amps don't, but a few do. Most stereo receivers don't have REQ, but the R-N803 does.

3) If you are referring to HDR10+, I believe you should be safe with the 2020 models, you should check the individual manufacturer websites just to be sure.
 
B

Belu

Audiophyte
Volume control knob position does not tell much, other than in general you would try to avoid turning it higher than 12 O'clock, but it really depends on other factors such as the input signal voltage that in turn depends on the kind of device upstream and the source media contents obviously. It also depends on whether the volume control follows a linear scale or log scale? I think most vintage integrated amps would have the linear one. Your A9010 isn't that old and it use an IC to do the job, so I think most likely it has a log scale characteristic.

If it is log scale, you will notice that the level would increase more gently as you turn it up but will increase more rapidly (more sensitive) as you keep cranking it up.

View attachment 44623






That preamp, to me, is a low cost nice toy, but if your goal is transparency, neutral kind of "sound signature", then yes you are better off with an integrated amp, AVR, or a stereo receiver.



Much more expensive integrated amps such as Yamaha's (anything above the A-S801), likely offer cleaner preamp output signal and better audio specs from input to output, but can you tell the difference between 0.01% (that's -80 dB) and 0.001% THD+N, I doubt if even 1% of home users can, unless they live in an anechoic chamber with every device in the signal chain perform at the same level, and the best speakers are used.

More often than not, the likes of the AVR-X3600H, SR6014, RX-A1080 and higher models actually have the critical part such as the preamp volume control, DAC and OP amp ICs that are superior in audio specs, relative to the likes of the entry level integrated amps such as the Onkyo A9010's. You need to go up to at least something like Yamaha's A-S701 and higher models, to match such AVRs in audio specs.

Advantages of the AVRs mentioned are 1) better price to performance ratio, 2) flexibility, example: more inputs, you typical get a few analog, at least 1 optical, coax, USB, and of course HDMI and video capability so you can see what's going on (such as volume/level), 3) Automatic REQ feature so you don't need to bother with those minidsp that costs money, add wire clutter, and don't always do any better. For the same money, the last year model AVRs typically offers such good discount that I dare say 100% of the same you end up with a more powerful unit than a two channel integrated amp. With C-19 going on, there appears to be a shortage of AVRs so I assume it is not as easily to find such discounts. But if you can get something like the AVR-X3600H for under $1,000, it would be a better buy than an integrated amp such as the A-S801.



The R-N803 is a nice unit that I would not hesitate to recommend, but it does not have higher output, the difference is in the multiple decimal points of 1 dB so practically though, so they practically offer the same power output into a 4 ohm resistor load, and that's based on bench test measurements of the X3500H that has the same power amp and power supply as the X3400H. The X3600H beats the R-N803 in dynamic output but again in practice they are equal.

One more important advantage of the AVRs mentioned is that it has multi-channel preamp outputs so if and when you need more power you can connect the pre outs to external power amplifiers. The R-N803 does not have preamp outputs, only line outputs. That, to me is a show stopper but if you are sure you won't ever need more power then obviously it is not an issue.



1) No, you need subwoofer outputs (, not line outputs unless you are prepare to add an external volume control for the subwoofer.

2) Most AVRs do have bass management features and Room correction, most integrated amps don't, but a few do. Most stereo receivers don't have REQ, but the R-N803 does.

3) If you are referring to HDR10+, I believe you should be safe with the 2020 models, you should check the individual manufacturer websites just to be sure.


Hi PENG, thanks again for your detailed response!

After reading your response I think AVR definitely is more definitely more advantageous than an integrated amp, especially with features like room correction and pre-outs.

That preamp, to me, is a low cost nice toy, but if your goal is transparency, neutral kind of "sound signature", then yes you are better off with an integrated amp, AVR, or a stereo receiver.
I would like to tryout the Saga pre-amp as I have never heard tubes before. Can I safely connect the pre-outs of the AVR to Saga, then the Saga output to the AVR input to experience tube signature?

I found a used AVR-X3300W which seems to have the same power output as the X3500H, 105Watts per channel at 8 Ohms, 20hz-20khz, which should be plenty. I also noticed Denon typically do not list the output power at 4 ohm, but at 8 ohm. Datasheet also suggest speaker impedance 4-16ohms is acceptable.

1) No, you need subwoofer outputs (, not line outputs unless you are prepare to add an external volume control for the subwoofer.
Sorry, I meant pre amp output, not line output (speaker level). The AVR you suggested all have two subwoofer outputs so it is straight forward.
 

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