Battle of the Sonys - Part 1

[Audioholics]

<font color='#000000'>Well, this seems to be the week of the preprocessor here at Audioholics. Steve DellaSala has completed his review of the preprocessing capabilities of the Sony TA-E9000ES and the STR-DA4ES. We have taken the liberty of breaking up the article into two separate parts, with one being released each week. We're not trying to artificially generate suspense - but there is just so much information here, this is the only way to digest it! Read on!</font>

 

[steve]

<font color='#000000'>This message was e-mailed to me regarding the Sony Article. &nbsp;I thought it would be beneficial to post it in the forum and answer it here for others to read.

Thanks C.T., for your question.

Regards,
Stevie D


I planned to buy the 4ES as the pre for my HK PA5800 80w/5ch but your
article scares me away from it even I can get this unit from Sony for $600.

But I have a few questions to ask:
- is it unfair to compare a $1000 unit with a almost 2K unit?
- is it worth to use my HK 5Ch amp and find a new receiver as pre (current
is RX-V795) or just to get rid of it and buy a good receiver with decent
powers( >100W/ch from Yamaha, Denon)?

Best regards,
C .T.
</font>

 

[steve]

<font color='#000000'>C.T.,

Thanks for your response to the Battle fo the Sony article.  I have the following answers to your questions:

1)  "is it unfair to compare a $1,000 unit with an almost $2k unit."

C.T., Good question and good point.

It really wasn't my purpose to compare the $1,100 (retail) Sony STR-DA4ES to the $2,000 (retail) Sony TA-E900ES, based on their price, but more for the fact that they share the ES title.  Besides, when you consider that the 4ES and 7ES are almost identical Receivers, with a more expensive remote and larger power supply on the 7ES, this jacks the price up to $1,800 retail (or so) for the 7ES.  Also, you can still purchase a new 9000ES for about $1,100 at a few mail order places, such as www.oade.com.  So for these reasons, price was not my comparative factor.

What I am trying to express in this article is that Sony seems to have taken away some of the quality found in the 5ES and in the 9000ES to do the 4ES / 7ES.  It's not to say the 4ES isn't a great Receiver.  ESPECIALLY if you can get it for $600.  For $600, I would jump on it.  But, I don't think its worth $1,000, as there are other Receivers in this price range worth considering first.  

2)  "is it worth to use my HK 5Ch amp and find a new receiver as pre (current is RX-V795) or just to get rid of it and buy a good receiver with decent powers( >100W/ch from Yamaha, Denon)?"

Actually, the HK 5800 is a really good Receiver, so I'd have a hard time getting rid of it.  If you start talking about using this unit as an amplifier and buying another Receiver, I'd have to say, it's probably not a wise investment.  

First of all, you really need to define what your after for wanting to upgrade your current HK Receiver.  Do you want/need a rear center (6.1)?  Do you want/need 6-channel inputs for new Audio formats?  Are you looking for other features not found in your HK?

If so, then I'd save a bit more money, wait a few more weeks and look at other units in the $1,200 range.  Perhaps GDS or Ray can suggest what models to look at, as I have really not reviewed the newer Yamaha's, HK's and Denon's Models yet.

Good luck, and if you have more questions, I encourage you to use the forums.  Audioholics is pleased to answer questions in here.

Thanks</font>

 

[RTPBob]

<font color='#000000'>Steve, a really great review. &nbsp;I took your advice and called Oade (talked with Jim and reffereced Audioholics) and he had a DA5ES that he was willing to sell me at a substantial discount (cheaper than the best deals I've seen on a DA4ES). &nbsp;I was considering the DA4ES because of its 7 channels, but I can add an extra amplifier later if I ever want to go that route. &nbsp;The DA5ES should arrive today! &nbsp;

Now that I have one, can you give a quick comparison between it (as a preamplifier) and the 9000ES? &nbsp;Also, do you have an opinion on its amplifier section?

Thanks for the article and advice to chase down the DA5ES.</font>

 

[gene]

<font color='#000000'>CT;

First off just to clarify, I don't think Steve knew that the HK 5800 is a five channel power amp and not a receiver. &nbsp;That being the case, the 5800 is a very good 5 channel amp and may prove to be more musical and rugged than the 4ES amp section. &nbsp;My best advice to you is try the two and compare them. &nbsp;You can always use the amps from the 4es to power another room and rear centers if you prefer the sound of the HK amp.
The 4ES IMO, is one of the best receivers on the market in the sub $1000 price class. &nbsp;It has a ton of useful features (multi room, EX, Prologicii, excellent bass management, and two sets of 6 channel inputs). &nbsp;Most receivers in this price class do not offer all of these features. &nbsp;On the downside, the 4ES is difficult to set-up, the manual is poorly documented.
IF you can get past that, then its a good deal. &nbsp;While we really like the 5ES, it is very difficult to acquire now since it has been discontinued.</font>

 

[randyb]

<font color='#000000'>I want to add my thank you for the great article(s). &nbsp;It was well written and very infomative.</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>

Great detailed article. I own the 4ES and before i bought i did listen to 5ES and the 4ES swithing backforth and could not here a difference. They sounded the same to me, so i assumed that they were basicly the same receiver with the 4ES having an x-tra amp. The 4ES sounds incredible in my large Home Theater set-up. I'm running all 7ch's and the 4ES handles it with no problem even at very high volumes. I paid 680.00 for it instesd of the 1000.00 list i thought it was a steal  for the money.

What do you think of the build quality of the 4ES compared to other receivers in it's price range?

Do you think the 4ES is a bad movie surround sound reciever?

How would you rate the 4ES seperation when it comes to movie playback?</font>

 

[RTPBob]

<font color='#000000'>Gene, I wouldn't call the DA5ES "very hard to find" just yet. &nbsp;Maybe "a little more work to find" would be more accurate. &nbsp;A couple of us Audioholics have found them and I've seen e-bay auctions from authorized dealers in Canada for DA5ESs, who may have more than one in stock. &nbsp;Also a number of internet retailers have them still listed and one might be able to negotiate a good price on a last year's model.</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>Steve:

I read your article on the TA-E9000ES. I own this unit along with the 2.01 and 2.5 software upgrade. Do you really think that the Disco soundfield is similar to 4 channel stereo? I tried it and it wasn't even close.</font>

 

[ctransj]

<font color='#000000'>Stevie and Gene,
Great work on the review of the Sony 4ES/5ES/7Es... like i said, it's the best review about the Sony ES line.
I hope you guys will do some serious reviews for the other receivers from Yamaha, Denon, Onkyo...and justfocus on the new models, we really appreciate and think it's helpful. I don't like to read some review about receivers which are about to be discontinued. What is the point right?

You told me you posted my email on this forum but I didn't find it until now and already bought the 5ES. I really like this forum where the staffs actually read our posts and reply promptly.
Thanks alot.</font>

 

[steve]

<font color='#000000'>Robert,

I didn't mean to say that Disco Mode is the same as 4-channel stereo. &nbsp;If you read the article, all I'm stating is that it is a great mode for playing in parties when you want maximum output from your rear speakers, and don't care too much about the acoustics. &nbsp;Its definately, not an audiophile mode, but it has its purpose.

Thanks for your response to our article.

Cheers</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>Ooppp, I meant Steve, not Stevie. Sorry.
thanks.</font>

 

[Audioholics]

<font color='#000080'>I think he answers to Steve, Stevie, or anything over 85 decibels... &nbsp; &nbsp;

</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>Steve,
this is very interesting article, somehow unique because &nbsp;it shows how high end equipment differs from hi fi. However, when comparing the 5ES to the 4ES, details should be given. When saying that one unit is better than another, you should provide good reasons (e.g. a listening comparison like you did nicely for the Sony TA-E9000ES &nbsp;vs 4ES). &nbsp;Or leave it out of the article.

BTW, the weight comparison between the two units is not correct:
<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Furthermore, when comparing the STR-DA4ES to the older, and much better STR-DA5ES, you will notice the following. The 4ES offers discrete amplifiers for 7.1 (two rear centers), where as the 5ES offered discrete amplifiers for 6.1 (one rear center). Interestingly, when Sony added the extra power amplifier to the 4ES to support the two rear centers, the overall weight decreased by about 7-lbs. </td></tr></table>

According to the manuals, there is a weight increase of one kilogram (4ES: 21 Kg, 5ES: 20 Kg).



I am not saying that the 5ES is not better than the new 4ES as said in the article. I just don't know.

Bruno</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>

I agree with BrunoB, like i said in my previous reply i listen to both and could not here a difference between the the two. That is why i wanted you to rate the 4ES sound seperation in digital mode compared to the 5ES and the 9000ES.

Also wanted you to rate the build quality as well, let's say on a scale 1-10 on both areas. I apologize if i was not clear. Can you go into greater detail on what makes the 5ES a much better reciever than the 4ES? Thx.</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>Also the optical connector on my 5ES doesn't look like the picture as shown by crutchfield.com but the same as the 4ES picture. It's not fragile as you described but it's very hard to remove the optical cable. It's the same connector but instead of the plugging type cover, it's just flip up when you insert the cable just as the VCR when you insert the tape.
I sacrified the new features of the 4ES: 12V triggers, 7th discrete amplifier.. because Steve said the 5ES is better. I would appreciate if you confirm and point out why the 5ES is better.</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>hey guys,

aren't you sorry that you "listen" to somebody else's opinion and thereafter get stuck with a product which raises doubts in your mind? it's obvious that one of the reasons for which steve said the 5ES is better than the 4ES is the processing method (SHARC vs. RISC). oh, and the infamous optical connectors ... out of sheer curiosity and taking advantage of the return policy of the store from where I've got my 4ES, I plugged and unplugged an optical cable for about 100 times. Well, nothing broke, trap doors did not fly away or anything like that. Maybe I'm very lucky, who knows? now, it is clear that the 4ES is heavier than the 5ES (1 kilo) and not lighter by 7 lbs. as Steve presented in his "long researched and awaited" review .... this should tell you something ... so think for yourself, don't listen to what others have to say ... buy both receivers and listen to them ... then either return or sell the receiver you don't want on eBay ... last 5ESs sold on eBay fetched on average about $730 about two weeks ago. there are none available at the time of my posting .. you may even make a profit if you buy from oade.com (heard that they have great deals on the remaining stock) and sell on eBay ... just kidding of course, but the message remains: do your homework, and take with a grain of salt whatever others are saying ....</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>Yeah, I am thinking of selling my 5ES on ebay.

</font>

 

[steve]

<font color='#000000'>Greetings everyone,

There are many good responses to our Article in this forum, and I appreciate all the feedback. &nbsp;There is indeed, a weight discrepancy in the article and I apologize. &nbsp;It will be updated soon, and thanks for pointing it out. &nbsp;It seems that I took the wrong information when comparing the weights. &nbsp;It just shows that we are not all robots here and sometimes, errors occur.

I wish to point out the following information on the power supplies of the 5ES and 4ES. &nbsp;

1) The 4ES and 5ES both use 71V x 15,000 micro-Farad Caps. &nbsp;As the capacitors are used to store energy to supply a stable DC voltage to the Amplifiers, in theory, if all 7 channels are being driven simultaneously, there is less headroom in the 4ES than the 5ES due to that extra 7th channel. &nbsp;

2) &nbsp;The 5ES uses the Nichicon Gold Tune caps, which are known to be a high quality, audiophile capacitor with low loss. &nbsp;I provided a hotlink to these caps in the article for everyone to check out. &nbsp;The new 4ES does not use the Nichicon Caps, but instead, they are generic caps. &nbsp;

3) &nbsp;Also, the 5ES uses a Linear Rap Transformer, much like that of the 9000ES, but the 4ES uses a Brando Transformer, which again, is another form of a generic brand component.

4) &nbsp;The 5ES is SHARC based Processor and the 4ES is RISC, and there are many Audiophiles holding to the fact that a SHARC system offers improved performance.

There is a difference in the level of performance between the two units, but it is not going to be as dramatic as comparing an alarm clock to a Yamaha Z1 Receiver. &nbsp;The differences will be subtle and may require attention listening for details with different sources in order to appreciate.

I don't understand why anyone feels like they are loosing features between the two units. &nbsp;For example, I just finished evaluating a pair of quad-pole speakers in the two surround channels, and there was more than enough sound to fill my entire 18-foot wide room. &nbsp;

If any wants to improve their surround channel response, consider purchasing speakers that image better and you’ll be amazed at the difference.

In addition, I may be able to understand wanting to add one mid-center rear, especially if you are in a very large (wide) room. &nbsp;Keeping in mind that most DVD recordings still do not have this discrete channel in their recordings, you will only be getting a mono blend of the rear surround speakers. &nbsp;

What I have a hard time justifying, is adding two mono rear center channel speakers to a Home Theater System. &nbsp;In most cases, you don’t need to have two mono center channels if you need any at all.

Furthermore, if any of you are not satisfied with their purchase of the 5ES over the 4ES, based on the review, I will be happy to swap it out with you. &nbsp;I have a brand new 4ES at my disposal and would love to trade it for the 5ES.


Best Regards,
Stevie D</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>Ok Steve ( Steve = &nbsp;

). So far I am OK with the 5ES: features( 2 multichannel input, 2rd,3rd rooms), better bass than before, look nice... But I missed Yamaha DSPs.
&nbsp;- Here is what my Dad complained about:
&nbsp; &nbsp;- not as loud as the old one
&nbsp; &nbsp;- difficult to navigate the source since it doesn't has the pointer on the LCD to tell which way to go.
&nbsp; &nbsp;- the tuner preset buttons are so thin and difficult to access if the front pannel door is close.
&nbsp;
Also the manual is not that great.

I need help in the setup, PLEASE HELP.
- Look like I need to adjust the EQ in order to get the better sounding?
- Can we assign each EQ setting to each individual source?
- Why I need to turn the Sony volume halfway when I listen to the music but only 3/10 of my yamaha( 85W/ch). Is it because the sony has the digital control? fine tune?
- Does it has both DPL and DPL2? I don't see it shows DPL2 but just DPL light up.
- When watching the movie in 5.1 DD/DTS what DSP should I use or just press AFD? normal surroundsound?
- Should I set: Cinema Studio Ex. A,B,C when watching 5.1 DD/DTS movie?

Thanks alot.</font>