B&W 802

[Swerd]

So, the ATI522NC in the 2-channel configuration (200 watts/channel) would be all I would need, along with an AVR preamp? That's actually really affordable, and would be a much more robust solution that I was originally looking at... and just a Pioneer AVR for the "preamp"???

I haven't heard them in use, so my recommendation is indirect. Those new ATI Class D amps certainly look good on paper, ATI has a very good reputation, and their amps come with a 7 year warranty.

To be fair, there are some other very high quality audio amps available at prices that don't require second mortgages. Some are original manufacturers such as ATI; others have contracted out the manufacturing of their amps, such as Outlaw Audio or Monoprice; and a third category are very small operations that sell only online (Internet Direct) such as Audio By Van Alstine or Odyssey Audio. This last category assemble their products by hand in someone's home.

Audio By Van Alstine (AVA) – Look at these two models:

Vision SET 400 Amplifier 225 wpc for $1999​

Vision SET 120 Amplifier 120 wpc for $899​

I've heard both of these in action, and can vouch for them. The SET 400 is "rated at 225 watts per channel into 8 ohms, much more into 4 ohms, and operates safely into 2 ohms. It’s comfortable paired with any speaker, including speakers demanding a LOT of power." That's not an exaggeration. If their price of $1999 plus shipping is not too high, I would recommend this amp for your B&W 802 speakers. If you call AVA, you'll probably speak to the owner, Frank Van Alstine. He'll be familiar with your speakers and can make his own recommendations. The smaller 120 amp is used by a speaker designer I know in nearly all his work. (Note that the SET abbreviation does not stand for Single Ended Triode, but AVA's unique Single Ended Transistor voltage amplifier design.)

ATI – already discussed in a previous post above – especially their new ATI522NC Class D amp.

Monoprice is an online parts and cable vendor that has branched out into home theater speakers and electronics they call Monolith. They now sell a variety of home audio amplifiers, including a 2 channel 200 wpc model for $1000. They are rumored to be manufactured in the USA under contract by ATI. That means ATI builds them in their factory to Monoprice's specifications. ATI's own products may or may not have different specs. As always, ATI does not reveal any details about their contract work.

Outlaw Audio is another well regarded online vendor of home audio electronics. Their products are also built for them by contractors. They sell a variety of multi-channel amps, but also sell the Model 2200 M-block amplifier, a 200 watt mono amp for $399 each. That's $798 for two.

Odyssey Audio is another small Internet Direct builder and seller of audio electronics. Look at their Stratos Stereo amplifier. I haven't heard these in action, but they have been recommended by other people whose opinions I trust.

 

[Griz1]

Again...lots of information to work through! Thanks! With regard to the pre-AMP; if one can use either an AVR or a pre-AMP, does that mean that the pre-AMP is mostly acting as a switching device, and that one does not need to be too concerned with pre-AMP specs? Or is the message that even the pre-AMP section in a Pioneer Elite is more than adequate.... It would be nice to use the external power amp to drive only the 802s, and the receiver to drive the other speakers. And I have noticed that no one is suggesting the McIntsoch MC152 receiver...which claims 150 watts/channel.. Back in the 60s McIntosch was the reference standard for many audiophiles... is that no longer true? Just wondering....
Thanks again!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

And I have noticed that no one is suggesting the McIntsoch MC152 receiver...which claims 150 watts/channel.. Back in the 60s McIntosch was the reference standard for many audiophiles... is that no longer true? Just wondering....
Thanks again!

That's a 2Ch power amp, not a receiver. It's $6,000 for 150W x 2Ch/8-ohm/4-ohm. Might as well just get an AVR.

Actually an AVR like the Yamaha RX-A3080 can output about 300W x 2Ch into 4 ohms, which is more than that McIntosh 2Ch amp.

My big Denon AVR-5308CI receiver can output 339W x 2Ch into 4 ohms, so a little bit more than RX-A3080. But 300W/4 ohm for an AVR is pretty great.

McIntosh amps won't sound any better than other high quality amps. But they do look pretty.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

does that mean that the pre-AMP is mostly acting as a switching device, and that one does not need to be too concerned with pre-AMP specs?

The Pre-pro is the brain of the system - it does all the processing. So it's important.

 

[Swerd]

With regard to the pre-AMP; if one can use either an AVR or a pre-AMP, does that mean that the pre-AMP is mostly acting as a switching device, and that one does not need to be too concerned with pre-AMP specs? Or is the message that even the pre-AMP section in a Pioneer Elite is more than adequate....

An AVR or an AV pre-amp both do the same thing. They do all the necessary digital processing of the digital audio signal, they act as a switching device, and they convert the digital signal to analog just before it gets amplified for speaker playback.

In the case of an AV pre-amp, all the amplifiers are external, and in the case of the AV receiver, the amplifiers are internal. If an AV receiver has pre-amp output jacks, the owner has the option of using the receiver's internal amps or adding his own external amps for some or all of the surround sound playback channels. I hope I've made that clear.

The Pre-pro is the brain of the system - it does all the processing. So it's important.

You wording makes it sound like only a pre-pro can do the processing. Full featured AVRs do the very same thing. Your answer is misleading.

It would be nice to use the external power amp to drive only the 802s, and the receiver to drive the other speakers.

There is no reason at all why you cannot do that.

And I have noticed that no one is suggesting the McIntsoch MC152 receiver...which claims 150 watts/channel.. Back in the 60s McIntosch was the reference standard for many audiophiles... is that no longer true?

McIntosh amps are still around. They're quite expensive. And they make for a highly visible statement, a fashion statement if you will. But they are really no better than many other amps.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

You wording makes it sound like only a pre-pro can do the processing. Full featured AVRs do the very same thing. Your answer is misleading.

He asked about the main function of the “pre-amp” (which I assume is the pre-pro). So I answered what the main function is.

 

[Pogre]

He asked about the main function of the “pre-amp” (which I assume is the pre-pro). So I answered what the main function is.

I know what you mean ADTG, but at first glance I kinda read it the way swerd did. Maybe "A pre-pro or AVR are the brain of the system..."

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I know what you mean ADTG, but at first glance I kinda read it the way swerd did. Maybe "A pre-pro or AVR are the brain of the system..."

Either an AVP or AVR is fine.

My view is, an AVR alone is fine. He’s been using a AVR for how many years now.

But if you’re going to spend big bucks on amps (like $6K McIntosh), might as well go all separates.

 

[Swerd]

It would be nice to use the external power amp to drive only the 802s, and the receiver to drive the other speakers.

As a follow up to the external amplifiers I suggested in a previous post, the Audio By Van Alstine Vision SET 400 amp was recently reviewed by one of those publications, ToneAudio, that usually focuses on very high priced audio gear.

http://www.tonepublications.com/review/the-audio-by-van-alstine-vision-set-400/

And an older review, from September 2018
http://www.audiophilia.com/reviews/2018/9/13/the-van-alstine-vision-set-400-stereo-amplifier

 

[carlthess40]

What ever is the weakest link in your system is what you will hear
You can have the best handmade amps with the top of the line preamp and you use cheap cables. You will hear the cheap made cables and not fully hear and realize the quality of the rest of the system , so it goes with this saying ( it’s only as strong as the weakest link )
I still say it’s worth it for him to check the crossovers and make sure everything is in within specs. You can even mod them for your own liken of sound. And YES parts in a speaker crossover do go out of specs over time. Even if they have never been used
I don’t care what the other guy said about this. It’s a fact, not a myth. It just plan old Science and chemistry. Any metal over time will oxidize and or wear out with the without energy going through them, and crossovers are built using aluminum ,copper and other metals and chemicals that do oxidize overtime ,internally and external
Do your homework on this


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

As a follow up to the external amplifiers I suggested in a previous post, the Audio By Van Alstine Vision SET 400 amp was recently reviewed by one of those publications, ToneAudio, that usually focuses on very high priced audio gear.

http://www.tonepublications.com/review/the-audio-by-van-alstine-vision-set-400/

Just don't be mislead and believe all the BS they write about it. Talk about fluffing up an amp.

"the SET 400 threads the needle with an overall neutrality, yet has a touch of warmth to boot. Never artificially fluffing up the sound, it manages the deft feat of taking harsh recordings and making them far more enjoyable. Even when pushed, the amp seems almost tube-like in its ability to create fatigue-free music which results in long, couch-locked listening sessions. For example, the opening synthesizer notes heard on Portishead’s Roads pour forth with a seemingly-loving embrace. Where some amplifiers portray Beth Gibbons’ voice harshly or stridently, the AVA excels. Van Alstine’s years of designing tube gear presents us with a solid-state amplifier with similar voicing. String instruments maintain their dimension, bass notes carry with appropriate authority, and percussion features a punchy strike combined with fluid decay.
Bass proves another strong suit. The AVA’s high power reserve gets a grip on speaker drivers and refuses to let go. Bass guitar plucks reverberate with realistic tightness, followed by a decay with a palpable presence."

 

[Griz1]

I'm working my way through learning about the amplifiers suggested here... lots of fun! In a post above cables were mentioned... And sure enough there are high end HDMI cables that cost $200/3 feet... So, unless I'm mistaken, in a digital system these cables are carrying "0s" and "1s" between components... this seems binary to me--either the 0 or 1 gets there, or it doesn't. Why do we need silver coating on our HDMI cables??

 

[lovinthehd]

What ever is the weakest link in your system is what you will hear
You can have the best handmade amps with the top of the line preamp and you use cheap cables. You will hear the cheap made cables and not fully hear and realize the quality of the rest of the system

Most of us here don't believe this like Carl. Inexpensive cables are fine as long as they are of proper construction for the job at hand, they are not a component, they merely pass electrical signal. If you want pretty cables you can spend a lot on such, but performance advantage...meh.

 

[Pogre]

Most of us here don't believe this like Carl. Inexpensive cables are fine as long as they are of proper construction for the job at hand, they are not a component, they merely pass electrical signal. If you want pretty cables you can spend a lot on such, but performance advantage...meh.

Every time someone busts out the Kool aid I think of stuff like these here brilliant pebbles!

I don't care what that other guy says. Pebbles make just as much of a difference as cables.

 

[killdozzer]

I'm sorry to be late to this topic as I recently got a pair of these.

@Swerd – you found two brochures, but from the @Griz1 answer, I'm guessing he has the same model as me – the closed box Series1 and these state 8Ohms nominal impedance (the coloured brochure).

I've been testing these wioth three different amps that are now at my disposal:

A NAD THX 2700 power amp

Power output: 150 watts per channel into 8Ω (stereo), 400W into 8Ω (mono)

Frequency response: 1Hz to 80kHz

Total harmonic distortion: 0.03%

Damping factor: 120

Input sensitivity: 1.2V

Signal to noise ratio: 122dB

Speaker load impedance: 2Ω (minimum)

Dimensions: 435 x 127 x 395mm

Weight: 13kg

Year: 1992



Hitachi HMA8300
Power output: 200 watts per channel into 8Ω (stereo)

Frequency response: 5Hz to 80kHz

Total harmonic distortion: 0.1%

Damping factor: 50

Input sensitivity: 1V

Signal to noise ratio: 110dB

Speaker load impedance: 4Ω to 16Ω

Semiconductors: 1 x IC, 40 x transistors, 51 x diodes

Dimensions: 435 x 182 x 404mm

Weight: 24kg

Year: 1977



and a

Yamaha AVR RX-V496
Tuning range: FM, MW

Power output: 70 watts per channel into 8Ω (stereo)

Surround output: 70W (front), 70W (center), 70W (rear)

Frequency response: 20Hz to 20kHz

Total harmonic distortion: 0.06%

Damping factor: 60

Input sensitivity: 150mV (line)

Signal to noise ratio: 100dB (line)

Channel separation: 45dB (line)

Output: 150mV (line)

Speaker load impedance: 4Ω (minimum)

Digital inputs: coaxial, optical

Video Connections: composite, SVHS

Dimensions: 435 x 151 x 391mm

Weight: 10kg



Power amps were each with its own pre amp; Hitachi HCA-8300 and NAD C106.

Having them in a medium room, playing almost unbearably high, through an entire new, pop, bass/strings-heavy album, I noticed no difference among the Yamaha and Hitachi amps (being 70 and 200 Wpch/8 respectively) and most notably, didn’t feel excess heat from the Yamaha AVR.

I did notice difference in sound from NAD (but as has been debated here, it might have been expectations), some sort of softness in the midds, let’s leave it at that (it was present with all sources).

I had them on the short wall, playing across the length of the room. I sat 3” from the back wall. In medium size room I’d never think of a sub, which is not all that unexpected considering it’s 4 large woofers in a closed box (49Hz Q – 0.7).

I’ve been interchanging CD albums playing from Yamaha Natural Sound DVD-S795 DVD Player, Lossless files from my Laptop (always with the same settings) and the Technics SL-Q202 TT (which is not working properly so I disregard everything I heard – I wasn’t happy with what I’ve heard)

IMPORTANT: However, none of these were proper ABX simply because I wasn’t trying to prove sound difference among the amps. I wanted to see would I find Yamaha AVR lacking and overheating and I didn’t. But even the heat test was only by hand hooking it up to LS50 and then back to B&W 802. I needed to be sure how much power these need before I give Hitachi to my brother.

@Griz1 I wouldn’t spend too much time/money on a quest for finding an external amp unless it makes you personally happy. An honestly rated AVR anywhere between 100 and 150Wpch/8 will suffice even for prolonged sessions at ear-damaging levels. My father had these in a HT and since they shook the floors, he never went for a sub. Also, that was why he had a THX standard amp.

I gave the Hitachi to my brother and he hates me for it because it is so heavy that he needed to add vertical support under the shelf where he put it.

 

[Phase 2]

I'm sorry to be late to this topic as I recently got a pair of these.

@Swerd – you found two brochures, but from the @Griz1 answer, I'm guessing he has the same model as me – the closed box Series1 and these state 8Ohms nominal impedance (the coloured brochure).

I've been testing these wioth three different amps that are now at my disposal:

A NAD THX 2700 power amp

Power output: 150 watts per channel into 8Ω (stereo), 400W into 8Ω (mono)

Frequency response: 1Hz to 80kHz

Total harmonic distortion: 0.03%

Damping factor: 120

Input sensitivity: 1.2V

Signal to noise ratio: 122dB

Speaker load impedance: 2Ω (minimum)

Dimensions: 435 x 127 x 395mm

Weight: 13kg

Year: 1992



Hitachi HMA8300
Power output: 200 watts per channel into 8Ω (stereo)

Frequency response: 5Hz to 80kHz

Total harmonic distortion: 0.1%

Damping factor: 50

Input sensitivity: 1V

Signal to noise ratio: 110dB

Speaker load impedance: 4Ω to 16Ω

Semiconductors: 1 x IC, 40 x transistors, 51 x diodes

Dimensions: 435 x 182 x 404mm

Weight: 24kg

Year: 1977



and a

Yamaha AVR RX-V496
Tuning range: FM, MW

Power output: 70 watts per channel into 8Ω (stereo)

Surround output: 70W (front), 70W (center), 70W (rear)

Frequency response: 20Hz to 20kHz

Total harmonic distortion: 0.06%

Damping factor: 60

Input sensitivity: 150mV (line)

Signal to noise ratio: 100dB (line)

Channel separation: 45dB (line)

Output: 150mV (line)

Speaker load impedance: 4Ω (minimum)

Digital inputs: coaxial, optical

Video Connections: composite, SVHS

Dimensions: 435 x 151 x 391mm

Weight: 10kg



Power amps were each with its own pre amp; Hitachi HCA-8300 and NAD C106.

Having them in a medium room, playing almost unbearably high, through an entire new, pop, bass/strings-heavy album, I noticed no difference among the Yamaha and Hitachi amps (being 70 and 200 Wpch/8 respectively) and most notably, didn’t feel excess heat from the Yamaha AVR.

I did notice difference in sound from NAD (but as has been debated here, it might have been expectations), some sort of softness in the midds, let’s leave it at that (it was present with all sources).

I had them on the short wall, playing across the length of the room. I sat 3” from the back wall. In medium size room I’d never think of a sub, which is not all that unexpected considering it’s 4 large woofers in a closed box (49Hz Q – 0.7).

I’ve been interchanging CD albums playing from Yamaha Natural Sound DVD-S795 DVD Player, Lossless files from my Laptop (always with the same settings) and the Technics SL-Q202 TT (which is not working properly so I disregard everything I heard – I wasn’t happy with what I’ve heard)

IMPORTANT: However, none of these were proper ABX simply because I wasn’t trying to prove sound difference among the amps. I wanted to see would I find Yamaha AVR lacking and overheating and I didn’t. But even the heat test was only by hand hooking it up to LS50 and then back to B&W 802. I needed to be sure how much power these need before I give Hitachi to my brother.

@Griz1 I wouldn’t spend too much time/money on a quest for finding an external amp unless it makes you personally happy. An honestly rated AVR anywhere between 100 and 150Wpch/8 will suffice even for prolonged sessions at ear-damaging levels. My father had these in a HT and since they shook the floors, he never went for a sub. Also, that was why he had a THX standard amp.

I gave the Hitachi to my brother and he hates me for it because it is so heavy that he needed to add vertical support under the shelf where he put it.

I enjoyed reading your findings, I did a similar thing with my amps, a few years ago. All though it wasn't a scientific fact finding test. What I was after was to see if I really need those 200 X 2 into 8 Ohms load and my 500 X 2 into a 4 Ohms load over my Yamaha's 95 X 2 into a 8 Ohms load. My take was, only at ear bleeding levels did I notice a slight difference. At moderate up to reference level no difference at all. So I sold off my high current amps, I have not looked back.