B&K vs Denon

[Pyrrho]

Rotel has the Stereo Integrated Amp for $700 while Denon has the Stereo IA for $1,200. Denon actually has a Stereo IA amp in Japan for $10,000 USD.

Rotel has the flagship Power amp for $2,500 while Denon has the flagship Power amp for $7,000.

Rotel has the flaghips Pre-Pro for $3,000 while Denon has the flagship pre-pro for $7,000.

Rotel has the flagship Receiver for $2,200 while Denon has the flagship receiver for $7,200 (AVR-5805CI) and $5,200 (AVR-5308CI).

Rotel has the flagship DVD player for $1,500 while Denon has the flagship DVD player for $3,800.

B&K has the flagship amp for $2,400.

B&K has a flagship pre-pro for $2,500.

If we are basing on price, I don't see how B&K & Rotel are higher-end than Denon.

Denon makes a wide range of products, and I personally don't think you can get much better than their best electronics. I do, however, generally think that Yamaha is a better value, especially in the receivers, which is why the last two surround receivers that I have owned have been Yamaha. But if I had encountered an appropriate Denon at a better price, I would have been fine with purchasing Denon instead.

And Denon has long been regarded as a leader in DVD players, though they have always charged a lot for their best, and now the Oppo players seem to be a better value.

I think that Rotel and B&K have made some good products, too, but I think they are almost invariably overpriced (or so it seemed to me, when I last checked, which was prior to the current lineups).

As an aside, I would be very interested in your assessment of an Oppo DV-983H. Given your huge budget for shiny disc players, another $400 would be almost nothing to you, but for me to make a similar comparison would cost a fortune for the Denon DVD-5910CI.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Denon makes a wide range of products, and I personally don't think you can get much better than their best electronics. I do, however, generally think that Yamaha is a better value, especially in the receivers, which is why the last two surround receivers that I have owned have been Yamaha. But if I had encountered an appropriate Denon at a better price, I would have been fine with purchasing Denon instead.

And Denon has long been regarded as a leader in DVD players, though they have always charged a lot for their best, and now the Oppo players seem to be a better value.

I think that Rotel and B&K have made some good products, too, but I think they are almost invariably overpriced (or so it seemed to me, when I last checked, which was prior to the current lineups).

As an aside, I would be very interested in your assessment of an Oppo DV-983H. Given your huge budget for shiny disc players, another $400 would be almost nothing to you, but for me to make a similar comparison would cost a fortune for the Denon DVD-5910CI.

True. Except the new Yamaha Z11 is $5,500 and the Denon 5308 is $5,200. I think the new Pioneer Elite 200 WPC x 7 receiver is like $7,000 retail!
I'm sure Denon will replace the AVR-5805CI with something like a 5809CI and retail for probably $8,000.

Honestly, I don't think there is any difference in PQ or SQ between the flagship Denon DVD player and the flagship Oppo. The Oppo is a lot better value. No question about it.

A lot of times we buy things for other reasons than just performance.

If I were a billionaire, I would buy a $6,000,000 Pre-pro, Amp, DVD player just because I could do it.

Sometimes we just don't need rhyme or reason. We just live it up.

 

[Pyrrho]

That must have been before I was born.

Really, I have never heard that.

I believe it was after WWII, that Japan had cheap labor and produced many cheap things for exporting to the U.S., very much like what China has been doing in recent years. And, like China is now, the Japanese were also making some high quality products. One of Japan's early "successes" was with cameras. Later, they were getting recognition for making reliable cars that were a good value.

Wow. So I guess it is possible that one day, people may associate "made in Korea" with high quality?

And "made in China" with high quality too?

Possibly. We will have to wait and see. But if you wait for the reputation (to the general public, not to the people paying attention) to catch up with the quality, you will miss out on good deals. Both countries are right now making significantly better products than their general reputations would suggest. Of course, you can also buy extreme garbage that is made in China, and that sort of thing hurts the general reputation. But if you pay attention to what is good from China, you can get great deals on high quality products. The reason, of course, is that the general reputation of the country is not as good as some other countries, so they must charge less to stay in business. After all, why not buy from a country with a good reputation (which can help in reselling the item later), if the one from a country with a lessor reputation costs just as much for an equal product? Of course, this applies to Chinese brands, rather than brands that you know and love (like Denon, who probably did not drop the price of their DVD players when they switched to China, did they?).

Because right now, there is no way I'm buying a Kia or Hyundai.

The last I heard, Hyundai had dramatically improved their quality and reliability. They used to make unreliable cars, but, supposedly, they now make fairly reliable cars. Check Consumer Reports for such things.

I wonder if products from Outlaw and Emotiva are made in China too?

I don't know, but I would not be surprised if they were made in China. Outlaw says:

"Factory? We're Outlaws! We don't need no stinkin' factory!!"

It's true, we have no factory, and we never will. If you are not building huge quantities of products, factories are very inefficient and add unnecessary overhead to the final manufacturing cost. We are designers and engineers. First we spec and design our products, and then we locate the best possible venue for their manufacture.

We are convinced that by matching a specific product to its ideal manufacturing venue, we will always deliver the best and most cost-effective A/V components. This development and manufacturing model, combined with a direct sales channel exclusive to the Internet, allows us to offer the best possible values to our customers.

http://www.outlawaudio.com/about/factory.html

Sounds like China to me.


Emotiva says they have their own factories:

http://www.emotiva.com/faq.html#about

But they don't mention there where they are. But here they do:

http://www.emotiva.com/contact.html

the country of origin of all Emotiva products is China, unless otherwise specified.

 

[Pyrrho]

True. Except the new Yamaha Z11 is $5,500 and the Denon 5308 is $5,200.

I should have been more clear. I had in mind the less expensive receivers. I have the Yamaha RX-V2700 [retail approx $1600], which I paid $300 for (open box at a local authorized retailer, without any accessories, so I bought the main remote and a few other goodies online). That, of course, was an exceptional deal. If I were buying a new receiver today, I would probably go with the Yamaha RX-V633, which retails for about $550, but, I am told, actually sells for closer to $400, which is a great value for what it is.

I think the new Pioneer Elite 200 WPC x 7 receiver is like $7,000 retail!
I'm sure Denon will replace the AVR-5805CI with something like a 5809CI and retail for probably $8,000.

Honestly, I don't think there is any difference in PQ or SQ between the flagship Denon DVD player and the flagship Oppo. The Oppo is a lot better value. No question about it.

A lot of times we buy things for other reasons than just performance.

I wish I had the disposable income for that sort of thing. If I had purchased the top of the line Denon DVD player, even at half retail price, my wife would want to kill me. And given what it probably does compared with the Oppo, she would probably be right to feel that way.

If I were a billionaire, I would buy a $6,000,000 Pre-pro, Amp, DVD player just because I could do it.

Sometimes we just don't need rhyme or reason. We just live it up.

Okay, now the important question. So, you are not a billionaire, but clearly you have some money to spend on audio equipment. What do you do for a living? I think I may need to change careers.

 

[trnqk7]

AcuDefTechGuy-I know Denon has a lot of audiophile quality stuff. Several people are misunderstanding me. I am referring, once again, to their consumer level stuff, the stuff priced under $1k. All I'm saying is they lose some "exclusivity". If you walked into a high end shop, I believe most of them would push you some direction other than Denon. Mine was big on Parasound Halo stuff...another swore by Rotel, etc. Again, not a knock on Denon-I own one and love it for pete's sake.

I'm just suggesting that, with AVR's at the sub $500 price point, you lose, for whatever reason, some respect from "audiophools" that equate price up and down the product lineup, with quality.

For example-if Maserati made a $20k car in addition to their $100k cars, Joe Sixpack would love it...but the rich, $100k Maserati owners/prospective buyers might dislike the fact that everyone can get in their little club...it lost SOME of its exclusivity. Not all of it...but it did become a little more common.

If this doesn't make sense...then forget about it. It's not worth trying to explain again and its really not a big deal in the scheme of things-I just don't want people to misunderstand what I'm saying if I can help it.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

AcuDefTechGuy-I know Denon has a lot of audiophile quality stuff. Several people are misunderstanding me. I am referring, once again, to their consumer level stuff, the stuff priced under $1k. All I'm saying is they lose some "exclusivity". If you walked into a high end shop, I believe most of them would push you some direction other than Denon. Mine was big on Parasound Halo stuff...another swore by Rotel, etc. Again, not a knock on Denon-I own one and love it for pete's sake.

I'm just suggesting that, with AVR's at the sub $500 price point, you lose, for whatever reason, some respect from "audiophools" that equate price up and down the product lineup, with quality.

For example-if Maserati made a $20k car in addition to their $100k cars, Joe Sixpack would love it...but the rich, $100k Maserati owners/prospective buyers might dislike the fact that everyone can get in their little club...it lost SOME of its exclusivity. Not all of it...but it did become a little more common.

If this doesn't make sense...then forget about it. It's not worth trying to explain again and its really not a big deal in the scheme of things-I just don't want people to misunderstand what I'm saying if I can help it.

I see exactly what you are saying.

Yeah, if Lexus sold cars for only $15K, it would negatively change their image 100%.

If Mark Levinson sold components that cost $500, it would negatively change their image 100%.

Unfortunately, it's the nature of the beast.

Denon makes great audiophile components, but because they also sell components for only $300, it changed their image.

If Onkyo only sold components that cost $3,000 to $6,000, and they all received exceptional reviews, Onkyo would be labeled as premium high-end.

 

[dorokusai]

The new B&K line will support HDMI, just FYI. I included a picture of the AVR707 from CEDIA. I thought I had some cutsheets for them but can't find the hiding place.

I've owned a B&K AVR for awhile and have been real happy with it. One selling point for me, I also bought used, was that I could upgrade it down the road. I eventualy upgraded my AVR307 to a AVR317. This brought it up to the same internal specs as a AVR507 Series 1, minus a knob and 1 output...plus it fixed a couple design problems in the process. A couple board level upgrades, updated DACS, blah blah. I liked that alot and hope it becomes more popular.

I've noticed the modular idea in AVR's come and go and I think that's a great idea as well.

Unfortunately, B&K seemed to not be interested in supporting the upgradeability idea for us older users, in the new lineup. I guess it was inevitable but that soured me on them since that's also currently a strong marketing point for them.

I don't know what I'm going to do when I look for HDMI capatibility this year for the new HT but I'm almost positive I'm going to someone else. I've been eyeballing the new CI series from Denon with alot of interest, as well as the Onkyo for the REON video support. There's alot of great choices out there.

Mark
Polk Audio CS

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I've been eyeballing the new CI series from Denon with alot of interest, as well as the Onkyo for the REON video support.

I saw the HT Mag review of the Video Processors in the new Denon 3808, 5308, Onkyo 875, Yamaha V-3800 & Z11, and Sony (?). They all did excellent in the digital processing part. But the Onkyo 875 did they best job in upscaling the ANALOG videos, which is kind of interesting since the 5308 and Z11 are a lot more expensive!

Overall, they said the Realta chip in the 5308 was the most impressive. But the Reon chip in the Onkyo is just as impressive.

This is the HDMI age. Who uses ANALOG (composite, S-video) anyway?

 

[Pyrrho]

The new B&K line will support HDMI, just FYI. I included a picture of the AVR707 from CEDIA. I thought I had some cutsheets for them but can't find the hiding place.

I've owned a B&K AVR for awhile and have been real happy with it. One selling point for me, I also bought used, was that I could upgrade it down the road. I eventualy upgraded my AVR307 to a AVR317. This brought it up to the same internal specs as a AVR507 Series 1, minus a knob and 1 output...plus it fixed a couple design problems in the process. A couple board level upgrades, updated DACS, blah blah. I liked that alot and hope it becomes more popular.

I've noticed the modular idea in AVR's come and go and I think that's a great idea as well.

Unfortunately, B&K seemed to not be interested in supporting the upgradeability idea for us older users, in the new lineup. I guess it was inevitable but that soured me on them since that's also currently a strong marketing point for them.

I don't know what I'm going to do when I look for HDMI capatibility this year for the new HT but I'm almost positive I'm going to someone else. I've been eyeballing the new CI series from Denon with alot of interest, as well as the Onkyo for the REON video support. There's alot of great choices out there.

Mark
Polk Audio CS

The upgradeable units from other companies have also not always been properly supported. I seem to recall hearing that Onkyo had a brilliant idea of having various cards that could be inserted into one of their high end receivers, so the hardware could be easily upgradeable (including rear panel connections). I have heard, though, that they don't bother making new cards for the unit. (To anyone reading this: If any details of this story are wrong, please post a correction; I am going on memory, not recently discovered information.)

Basically, saying that something is upgradeable, and making it so it could be upgraded, does not mean that they ever will actually make it possible for you to upgrade it. Without a written guarantee that they will provide such upgrades in the future, such claims are meaningless.

All of this means that a mid-level receiver is almost always the best way to go. If you need high power, buy separate power amplification that you can use with the preamp outputs on the unit, which you can keep indefinitely. You then simply upgrade the whole receiver when you need new capabilities. I personally find this a wasteful and therefore distasteful way of proceeding, but the reality is that it is usually the most practical way to go, with the constant changing of what capabilities are available.

If you buy a top of the line receiver, it will go out of date just as fast a mid level unit, and if you spend the same amount of money as using my method with mid-level receivers, you will be out of date more often with a top of the line receiver.

 

[PENG]

I saw the HT Mag review of the Video Processors in the new Denon 3808, 5308, Onkyo 875, Yamaha V-3800 & Z11, and Sony (?). They all did excellent in the digital processing part. But the Onkyo 875 did they best job in upscaling the ANALOG videos, which is kind of interesting since the 5308 and Z11 are a lot more expensive!

The Onkyo's Reon apparently did the best job deinterlacing 1080i to 1080p while the Denon 3808, 4308's Faroudja could not come close. Other than that I think you are right they all did good enough. Fortunately I really have no use for the 1080i/1080p deinterlacing so Denon works for me.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The Onkyo's Reon apparently did the best job deinterlacing 1080i to 1080p while the Denon 3808, 4308's Faroudja could not come close. Other than that I think you are right they all did good enough. Fortunately I really have no use for the 1080i/1080p deinterlacing so Denon works for me.

Yeah, this is one example of where using separates is better.

So I guess if you set the receiver video to 1080p, it means that the DVD/BD player is doing all the upscale, right?

And if you set the receiver to 480i, then the receiver will do the upscale?

From that article (skimming through), I got the impression that the Onkyo's Reon did the best job upscaling a 480i source if you connect via composite or S-video, which is ANALOG? I have NOT read it yet, though.

But if you connect via HDMI, which is DIGITAL, then the 5308's Realta did the best job?

 

[dorokusai]

This is the HDMI age. Who uses ANALOG (composite, S-video) anyway?

I'm just hoping at some point I will have picked the right component....the first time around. But what fun would that be?

Mark
Polk Audio CS

 

[dorokusai]

The upgradeable units from other companies have also not always been properly supported. I seem to recall hearing that Onkyo had a brilliant idea of having various cards that could be inserted into one of their high end receivers, so the hardware could be easily upgradeable (including rear panel connections). I have heard, though, that they don't bother making new cards for the unit. (To anyone reading this: If any details of this story are wrong, please post a correction; I am going on memory, not recently discovered information.)

Basically, saying that something is upgradeable, and making it so it could be upgraded, does not mean that they ever will actually make it possible for you to upgrade it. Without a written guarantee that they will provide such upgrades in the future, such claims are meaningless.

All of this means that a mid-level receiver is almost always the best way to go. If you need high power, buy separate power amplification that you can use with the preamp outputs on the unit, which you can keep indefinitely. You then simply upgrade the whole receiver when you need new capabilities. I personally find this a wasteful and therefore distasteful way of proceeding, but the reality is that it is usually the most practical way to go, with the constant changing of what capabilities are available.

If you buy a top of the line receiver, it will go out of date just as fast a mid level unit, and if you spend the same amount of money as using my method with mid-level receivers, you will be out of date more often with a top of the line receiver.

I think the Onkyo model was the TX-NR1000. I agree but the fact that B&K actually did support and provide real world upgrades is a little different. I know what you are saying tho', no doubt.

Another classic example of what you touched on would be Sony....specifically the older STR-DAxES series, as an example. They had the capability to be "upgraded" in case changes happened but there was never any software issued....just the next series of AVR's a couple years later.

I realize that it's a little naive to think something would be the be all, end all, since change is what keeps this hobby fresh.....but it would be nice sometimes when it comes to high dollar electronics.

Mark
Polk Audio CS

 

[PENG]

I realize that it's a little naive to think something would be the be all, end all, since change is what keeps this hobby fresh.....but it would be nice sometimes when it comes to high dollar electronics.

Mark
Polk Audio CS

I agree with you 100%. I am replacing my 3.5 years old 3805 with the 4308 mainly/only for the HD audio decoding features. The dealer offered only $200 for the 3805 that is still performing like the day it did on day 1, and is physically like new. So I am going to put it back in its orginal box, with the untouched manual. The box will be side by side with my other physically like new gear replaced for similar reasons. Electronic gear these days are so long lasting and trouble free, it is a real shame that they cannot be upgraded.

 

[Halvie]

I agree with you 100%. I am replacing my 3.5 years old 3805 with the 4308 mainly/only for the HD audio decoding features. The dealer offered only $200 for the 3805 that is still performing like the day it did on day 1, and is physically like new. So I am going to put it back in its orginal box, with the untouched manual. The box will be side by side with my other physically like new gear replaced for similar reasons. Electronic gear these days are so long lasting and trouble free, it is a real shame that they cannot be upgraded.

Have you tried putting it up on craigslist? I sold a four or five year old yamaha receiver on their and got $325 for it...was 550 new. I am sure you can do a ton better than 200.

 

[Pyrrho]

I think the Onkyo model was the TX-NR1000. I agree but the fact that B&K actually did support and provide real world upgrades is a little different. I know what you are saying tho', no doubt.

Another classic example of what you touched on would be Sony....specifically the older STR-DAxES series, as an example. They had the capability to be "upgraded" in case changes happened but there was never any software issued....just the next series of AVR's a couple years later.

I realize that it's a little naive to think something would be the be all, end all, since change is what keeps this hobby fresh.....but it would be nice sometimes when it comes to high dollar electronics.

Mark
Polk Audio CS

Yes, it would be nice if they did make things upgradeable, and made the upgrades for them. The trouble is, it is easier for them to just make a new unit, and also the upgrades would be usable only by those who bought the original, whereas the new unit is usable by anyone. So, I would not expect most companies to make upgrades for an old unit for very long. It just does not make good financial sense for them to do so, and whatever propaganda they might spew forth about an interest in good sound and music and such, they are primarily in it for the money. Indeed, if they ignored that aspect of things, they would probably not remain in business for long.

Therefore, I recommend buying a receiver and regarding it as merely a temporary device. I am giving away my old receiver, so that as I upgrade, so will my friends and relatives. I hate how surround receivers lose so much of their value so quickly. I also gave away a set of Carver speakers (Cinema 5.1) to a friend, because I could not bring myself to sell them for what the market value of them had become. It was much better to give them to a friend who never would have had such good speakers on his own (he is poor).

My current receiver will be fine into the future, as far as can be known presently, provided I get a Blu-Ray player with built-in decoders to send the new audio via uncompressed multichannel PCM via HDMI (I have the now out of date Yamaha RX-V2700). In any case, I will not upgrade it until I need something that it cannot do. And then it will probably be an upgrade for some friend or family member, as it will probably not be worth much to sell at that time.

Anyway, things are more temporary than they used to be. If one just kept to two channel, one could still have very old equipment and have no need to upgrade. Indeed, that is what I have for my other systems. It is nice not having to ever upgrade them for some new thing that seems important to get.

 

[dorokusai]

Pyrrho - Absolutely. At least there are folks that can feed off our "obsession" with audio and get a great piece on the used market, as alluded to by Halvie.

It's a cool cycle and is certainly how I got into high-end...or mid-fi...or generic, or whatever they want to call it these days. The used market is filled with gold and new gear simply tests your intestinal fortitude

Mark
Polk Audio CS