B&K vs Denon

[m5isa540]

I am in the market to upgrade my Yamaha HTR-6090. Over the weekend I demo'd a B&K AVR505 at home. The sale price was $1300. Simply put, the sound quality from the B&K was amazing. Problem is, it does not have HDMI and that is a show stopper for me because I lose HDMI transmitted audio formats (like DTS and all the others). It is also a cabling nightmare. So I decided not to buy it. Now the dealer is trying to sell me a Denon AVR4308CI. This unit has everything I need (like the Yamaha) including HDMI. He also tells me the audio quality is on par with the B&K

I love the B&K sound but I am not willing to spend the $$$ for the new 7 Series AVR (w/HDMI). It seems the Denon is a good compromise. Will I get the same or better quality of sound from the Denon 4308? Does anyone have experience with the 4308?

Thanks...

 

[bandphan]

what speakers?

 

[trnqk7]

As long as you don't have incredibly difficult to drive speakers (and even then...)that Denon should be more than fine!

 

[m5isa540]

what speakers?

I currently have 4 Def Tech BP10's and CLR2002. I am upgrading to Paradigm Studio 60's and releated center and surround or possibly B&W 683's and related center and surround.

This is confusing. I checked with another dealer and was told the entry level Rotel RMB 1075 and RSP 1069 (120W system) would have better sound quality than the Denon AVR4308. And that anything B&K would would sound better than the Denon. Comments?

My bottom line is at least 5.1, outstanding sound quality, and HDMI, and not break the bank.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I currently have 4 Def Tech BP10's and CLR2002. I am upgrading to Paradigm Studio 60's and releated center and surround or possibly B&W 683's and related center and surround.

This is confusing. I checked with another dealer and was told the entry level Rotel RMB 1075 and RSP 1069 (120W system) would have better sound quality than the Denon AVR4308. And that anything B&K would would sound better than the Denon. Comments?

My bottom line is at least 5.1, outstanding sound quality, and HDMI, and not break the bank.

They are all a bunch of liars who will tell you anything to make a sell. The differences will be minimal. Whether you like one over the other is purely personal listening preference.

Just make sure they offer a free in-home audition just in-case you don't like the end result.

I'm sure Rotel + B&W or Paradigm + Anthem or either speakers + Denon will sound very, very similar, especially in Pure Direct modes where DSPs, Tone Controls, and EQs are left out of the equation to alter the sound.

Sound & Vision measured the 4308 and says that it has one of the BEST specs they've ever measured (THD, SNR, Power, etc.).

Don't let those sales people brainwash you. Trust your judgement.

 

[trnqk7]

I'm not saying they are entirely wrong-but think of it this way...

*Do the dealers carry Denon products? If not, of course their stuff is better.
*Denon does not have the audiophile rep it once did-solely b/c they started marketing AVR's at price points normal people could afford and removed a lot of the exclusivity of owning the brand.
*Finally-I haven't checked prices on any of this stuff, so it could be way off, but I would wager that the B&K is at as, if not more expensive than the Denon...and price dictates quality, right? I know the entry level Rotel's are affordable, so this doesn't hold water as much as the first two points, but is still an idea that could be in their heads. IN relation to this though-consider the extra features of the Denon vs. the other two brands and then think about cost per feature...in this sense, the Denon is much cheaper!

My two cents and a few things to ponder

P.S. I am not suggesting that your dealers are trying to steer you wrong-all of these brands are quality products and I think you would be happy ultimately with any of them.

 

[m5isa540]

Yes, the dealers I talked to all carry Denon, B&K and Rotel. But they tend to want to sell me components because I said I wanted serious sound quality.

Another concern is that this purchase is significantly better than my Yamaha HTR 6090. The HTR 6090 is at the top of the Yamaha HTR product line, boasts 120w channel, and was not a bad buy at $800. Yes, I know it is a consumer oriented product. But so is the Denon, and that is what concerns me. These are both Japanese consumer products. The HTR 6090 sounds pretty good but not near the sound of the B&K AVR 505 150W system I demo'd over the weekend. When I researched the Yamaha I read nothing but good stuff about it. In reality it is no where near audiophile quality; but it is probably ok for most home applications.

I also read good stuff about the Denon AVR 4308. I agree that the Denon is very feature rich and is a good value. I need to demo the Denon at home too.....

By the way, the Rotel pre amp does not support HDMI 1.3. This is another reason to go with Denon.

 

[rnatalli]

Get a Denon receiver as a pre/pro and B&K amp

 

[fredk]

Yes, the dealers I talked to all carry Denon, B&K and Rotel.

Problem solved. Listen to all three and decide for yourself.

The dealers may also be reccomending based on margins.

Fred

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Recently I emailed Denon and asked them to recommend a component for me.

I told them I had the $3,800 DVD-5910CI and that I wanted the BEST 2 Channel Stereo Music Playback component available.

I told them that COST was NOT a factor.

I told them that I had no problem whatsoever if it were a Receiver, Pre-Pro + Amp, or Integrated Amp.

I told them I just wanted the BEST 2Ch music ever.

I told them my 3 choices were:

1) AVP-A1HDCI + POA-A1HDCI = $14,000
2) AVR-5308CI = $5,200
2) PMA-2000IVR = $1,200.

If I were just trying to make money, I would have said the AVP+POA gave the best 2 Ch music reproduction possible. Just hit "Pure Direct", and you got yourself the best 2Ch music there is for only $14,000.

But instead, they wrote me back and said, "The PMA-2000IVR will give you the best possible 2 Channel music playback."

It could mean a lot of things. I don't know. But they could have easily said, "If cost is not a factor, then we recommend the $14,000 AVP+POA".

 

[tn001d]

*Denon does not have the audiophile rep it once did-solely b/c they started marketing AVR's at price points normal people could afford and removed a lot of the exclusivity of owning the brand.

I didnt know that $2,500 or $5,200 receivers were somthing that normal people could buy all the time.

Denon is a smart company by offering receivers at wide range of prices so budget minded people can get a quality product without breaking the bank. And at the same time offering higher end products to those that can afford it.

In fact, Denon's high end equipment is only made in Japan and the lower end is made in china or malaysia. This is apparent in the build quality too.

Paradigm has the same philosophy of offering budget products too, but unfortunately has gotten away from it in recent yrs(thats a different story)

 

[PENG]

I posted several times before about my own experience comparing a RX-V2400 to a pair of separates. People are going to tell you how much better those Paradigm speakers would sound with separates but when I auditioned the Studio 60 and 100 a few years ago, I, and my friends could not tell the difference between a Yamaha RX-V2400 (pure direct 2 ch comparison) and the dealer's high end Anthem separate system. The sales consultant obviously was telling us how much better the Anthem sounded, but we didn't hear such difference. I have separates placed right next to my 3805 and I use the 3805 most of the time because it sounds really good enough for me. I just ordered the 4308 for the new HD features. I don't expect it to sound any different than the 3805. I also auditioned the B&W 802D a couple of years ago, and I am still trying to save up for a pair. I could easily tell I preferred its sound to Paradigm S8's. To me, there are more obviously difference in sound quality/tonal characteristics.

It is possible (not for sure) that sales reps may steer people to buy high end products because high end=higher margin; and anyone who pays much more for those products may have the ability to convince themselves that the more expensive systems sound better because they must. That being said, it is your money, so if you are willing to pay more for the "may be" better sound, go for it and be done with it.

 

[m5isa540]

I purchased the Denon AVR 4308CI. Big difference from my Yamaha and sound is as good as the B&K AVR505 at virtually all listening volumes. Not quite as good as B&K at extreme hi volumes; but that may improve when I replace my Def Tech speakers with new Paradign Studio 60's (or maybe 100's). The Denon has an excellent feature rich pre amp and I think I will add a 200w amp sometime down the road.

Thanks to all for your responses and opinions.

Anyone in the market for an 18 month old Yamaha HTR6090... Low miles, good tires, paint, and interior. Runs well!

 

[Pyrrho]

I didnt know that $2,500 or $5,200 receivers were somthing that normal people could buy all the time.

Denon is a smart company by offering receivers at wide range of prices so budget minded people can get a quality product without breaking the bank. And at the same time offering higher end products to those that can afford it.

In fact, Denon's high end equipment is only made in Japan and the lower end is made in china or malaysia. This is apparent in the build quality too.

Paradigm has the same philosophy of offering budget products too, but unfortunately has gotten away from it in recent yrs(thats a different story)

According to AcuDefTechGuy, who claims to have gotten his information directly from Denon, all of Denon's current DVD players (even the expensive [$3,800] DVD-5910CI) are made in China:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44061

Just because something is made in China, that does not necessarily mean it is cheap junk.

 

[trnqk7]

Denon is a very smart company-but notice I said started to create AVR's at price points consumers could afford. I didn't suggest that ALL of their receivers or products were at consumer price points. They do however sell several AVR's in the sub $1000 range, which is obivously consumer range.

I mean to suggest that they "lose" some audiophile support (not in anyway suggesting they are not audiophile quality) b/c of these price points...sure, there are "cheap" rotel amps/pre-pros...but they still are 2x the price of Denon's cheapest offerings. They lost brand exclusivity I guess is the best way to say it!

I didnt know that $2,500 or $5,200 receivers were somthing that normal people could buy all the time.

Denon is a smart company by offering receivers at wide range of prices so budget minded people can get a quality product without breaking the bank. And at the same time offering higher end products to those that can afford it.

In fact, Denon's high end equipment is only made in Japan and the lower end is made in china or malaysia. This is apparent in the build quality too.

Paradigm has the same philosophy of offering budget products too, but unfortunately has gotten away from it in recent yrs(thats a different story)

 

[jcPanny]

Upgrade options

If you purchase some hard do drive 4 ohm speakers (Paradigm Studio, etc.) and are looking for a sound quality upgrade, consider adding an amp your Yamaha receiver. The Yamaha has a good pre-amp stage and all the HDMI features you need. In general, the receivers over $1k add video and networking features.

I use an Emotiva LPA-1 amp with my Yamaha receiver. They have a few different models in the $5-800 price range. They are working on a new pre-pro, the UMC-1, that will be out in a couple months for $700.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

According to AcuDefTechGuy, who claims to have gotten his information directly from Denon, all of Denon's current DVD players (even the expensive [$3,800] DVD-5910CI) are made in China:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44061

Just because something is made in China, that does not necessarily mean it is cheap junk.

Yeah, my brand new $2,000 Denon DVD-3800BDCI is from China. I e-mailed Denon and asked if the $3,800 DVD-5910CI were also made in China. Ean Levy from Denon replied that ALL of the current line of DVD players are NOW made in China, including the DVD-5910CI. Mine was made in Japan, however. The receivers and separates are still made in Japan (for NOW at least). I'm going to have to get used to that. I have always thought of "higher-end" products being made in Japan.

 

[Pyrrho]

Yeah, my brand new $2,000 Denon DVD-3800BDCI is from China. I e-mailed Denon and asked if the $3,800 DVD-5910CI were also made in China. Ean Levy from Denon replied that ALL of the current line of DVD players are NOW made in China, including the DVD-5910CI. The receivers and separates are still made in Japan (for NOW at least). I'm going to have to get used to that. I have always thought of "higher-end" products being made in Japan.

You should never, ever equate quality with the country of origin. I would be very surprised if your Chinese made Denon were any less well made than similarly priced Denon products made in Japan. Although I am sure they are saving money in manufacturing costs by going to China, Denon would be very foolish to scrimp on quality at that price point. (And at that price, if it isn't a great unit, you should definitely return it, regardless of where it was made.)

All of this reminds me that many years ago, people associated "made in Japan" with cheap junk. That was because they made a lot of cheap junk in Japan in the past. But not everything was junk, and, over the years, the effect of their quality products has been an improved reputation (as reflected in your opinion of the "made in Japan" label).

If we look at cars, there appears to be no difference in quality between cars of the same brand made in one country or another. A Japanese made Honda or an American made Honda seem to be of the same quality, as far as I know. It is not the country where something is made that determines its quality. It is how it is made that matters.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Rotel has the Stereo Integrated Amp for $700 while Denon has the Stereo IA for $1,200. Denon actually has a Stereo IA amp in Japan for $10,000 USD.

Rotel has the flagship Power amp for $2,500 while Denon has the flagship Power amp for $7,000.

Rotel has the flaghips Pre-Pro for $3,000 while Denon has the flagship pre-pro for $7,000.

Rotel has the flagship Receiver for $2,200 while Denon has the flagship receiver for $7,200 (AVR-5805CI) and $5,200 (AVR-5308CI).

Rotel has the flagship DVD player for $1,500 while Denon has the flagship DVD player for $3,800.

B&K has the flagship amp for $2,400.

B&K has a flagship pre-pro for $2,500.

B&K has a flagship receiver for $3,500.

If we are basing on price, I don't see how B&K & Rotel are higher-end than Denon.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

All of this reminds me that many years ago, people associated "made in Japan" with cheap junk.

That must have been before I was born.

Really, I have never heard that.

Wow. So I guess it is possible that one day, people may associate "made in Korea" with high quality?

And "made in China" with high quality too?

Because right now, there is no way I'm buying a Kia or Hyundai.

I wonder if products from Outlaw and Emotiva are made in China too?