Axiom M80's needing a reciever...which one?

[steves321]

Axiom M80's needing a receiver...which one?

So I got myself some m80's. Love them. Right now they are power off of a Carver tfm-15, and ct-17 pre/pro combo. I love the sound of these things. So, I am also going to order the rest of the package which would be the qs8's and vp-150 center. I have a HSU st3-mk2 for the sub.

My question is this.

What receivers can handle the 4 ohm load? I was looking into the 3805, yammie 2500/4600, and hk 635. I'm not familiar with rotel or nad models.

These speakers are all going in a media room that is being built now. And the carver amps are staying in another section of the house for another set of speakers I have.

So, in the media room, I'd love to be able to get a receiver with the sound I am looking for. I do favor a brighter sound. This room will be used for %65 movies, the rest music/gaming on xbox. The room has a 110" screen/infocus pj.

We listen to pop/rock/top 40, rap, little country, alternative. I like really good bass ( hence the hsu) and good bright and clear highs. And that is where the confusion begins. I'm not too caught up in having 40,000 dsp modes when I know I'll only use maybe 2. I'm more interested in having a good sounding amp that sounds similar to my carver setup now. 2 zones would be nice as well. I do run my current system through a kenwood 7030 eq,and I always want an eq. So the new amp has to have a decent eq. Please don't tell me about room treatments, I know all about that. I still want a eq.

So, From what I am reading here, the hk is considered warm, so that rules the 635 out. Besides, I want something with more power although with hk's rep I am sure it would do fine power wise. 110-120watts min.

 

[jaxvon]

If you have the budget for the Yammie 4600, you might want to do the "Hot Separates" thing that Gene recommended, that being a Yammie 2500 and an Emotiva 7ch amp. The amp is sold out right now, but should be back in stock by the 11th of July. The amp is $2k. Not sure what you can find the 2500 for.

The 3805 is another good option. I'm not sure if the pre-outs are as good as the Yammie, but right now you can get one for $699 plus shipping on ubid, so that might be the way to go.

Actually, I'm crazy. I didn't know the 4600 was <2k. I was thinking about the Denon 4806. Sorry.

I'm not sure how much you'll be able to crank your M80s with either the 3805 or the 2500, but you can always pick up a good, used 2ch amp to power the fronts if you need more juice. Something like a Harmon Citation, and older Yamaha Amp, B&K ST-202+, etc.

 

[steves321]

I'm not really sure what the 4600 costs here in canada yet. I think it lists for 1899.99 us??

I'm hoping to get something for under 2grand Canadian.


ubid is not an option as it'll cross the border, and I'll lose any warranty it might have.

 

[Takeereasy]

my suggestion would be the Yamaha 2500 (you can get it for about $1100 CDN) and a nice 2 channel amp or two monoblocks to power your 80's. A good suggestion I feel would be the NAD C 272. MSRP of about $850 CDN, you can get it for less, especially if you get both at the same time or place. You will not need seperate amps to drive the center or the surrounds. They are both rated as 6ohms but they are pretty efficient and won't make the Yamaha work harder than it can handle. If you look around and haggle you should be able to get both products for a little under $2k CDN taxes in. Good luck.

 

[steves321]

what about the nad 773? What's the ballpark price in canada for these things?

and is it considered warm or bright.


a wish Denon would just hurry up and release the 3806 already.

 

[BJP]

what about the nad 773? What's the ballpark price in canada for these things?

and is it considered warm or bright.


a wish Denon would just hurry up and release the 3806 already.

I found the NAD T773 at Bay Bloor Radio, which is in Toronto, for $2500. It is considered "warm". It's a monster . 52 lbs.

Check out this www.nadelectronics.com/av_receivers/T773closerlook.htm

 

[Zarg]

3805

Hi Steve,

Based on your choice of Axioms and Hsu, I figure you for a value person, looking for the most bang for the buck. Paying a lot more $$ for a little increase in output or a little decrease in noise is not what you're about. Also, you say that you're looking for a "receiver" so I'm thinking separates are not in your future.

Based on the foregoing, I'm going to go with the Denon 3805. It was Audioholics' 2004 HT Receiver of the Year with a killer amp that will drive your Axioms nicely. Currently selling for $900 - $1,000, it's one of the best all-around values out there.

I have the 3805 driving a pair of M60's, a VP-150, and a pair of QS-8's. (I went with SV not Hsu.) I'm very satisfied and my friends, many of whom are musicians, tell me that my sound is clean, crisp, and clear.

Go with the 3805 -- best value @ the price point. Take it from another value-oriented person.

 

[PENG]

The 3805 will get you more power than the 2500 and therefore more suitable for highly efficient 4 ohms speakers such as your Axioms. The 2500 will get you more bells and whistles, probably could do slightly better with movies.

The NADT773 should be a great sounding receiver but it seems over priced compared to the mass produced Denon and Yamaha. Denon and Yamaha can produce their popular models very cost effectively because of the volume they sell. You will pay a lot more for NAD, ARCAM etc., for very little improvement in quality.

To me, a 3805 or 2500 plus a two or three channel power amplifier is a better system than the NADT773. Obviously you will get different opinions from others.

 

[rikmeister]

how bout a denon 5803 for 1989.00 that should certainly

handle it. on ubid now till sunday.

 

[newfmp3]

I am currently in talks with a dealer for a nad 773. Says it was listed at 2500, it is a demo, 2 weeks old, and I can have it for 1999. I don't know if that's a good price of not since I am not finding a lot of places in Canada to get the Nad near me.

I can get a denon 3805 for ~1450.

If the nad is considered "warm" then the denon is what I'll go for. But the nad is tempting for that power.

 

[MacManNM]

So I got myself some m80's. Love them. Right now they are power off of a Carver tfm-15, and ct-17 pre/pro combo. I love the sound of these things. So, I am also going to order the rest of the package which would be the qs8's and vp-150 center. I have a HSU st3-mk2 for the sub.

My question is this.

What receivers can handle the 4 ohm load? I was looking into the 3805, yammie 2500/4600, and hk 635. I'm not familiar with rotel or nad models.

These speakers are all going in a media room that is being built now. And the carver amps are staying in another section of the house for another set of speakers I have.

So, in the media room, I'd love to be able to get a receiver with the sound I am looking for. I do favor a brighter sound. This room will be used for %65 movies, the rest music/gaming on xbox. The room has a 110" screen/infocus pj.

We listen to pop/rock/top 40, rap, little country, alternative. I like really good bass ( hence the hsu) and good bright and clear highs. And that is where the confusion begins. I'm not too caught up in having 40,000 dsp modes when I know I'll only use maybe 2. I'm more interested in having a good sounding amp that sounds similar to my carver setup now. 2 zones would be nice as well. I do run my current system through a kenwood 7030 eq,and I always want an eq. So the new amp has to have a decent eq. Please don't tell me about room treatments, I know all about that. I still want a eq.

So, From what I am reading here, the hk is considered warm, so that rules the 635 out. Besides, I want something with more power although with hk's rep I am sure it would do fine power wise. 110-120watts min.

I would look into the Marantz 8400. Sounds like a perfect fit for you.

The HK would work too. I'd stay away from the Denon, as it doesn't drive those low ohm loads that well.

 

[PENG]

Neither the HK635 nor the Denon 3805 are designed for 4 ohms speakers but they can handle them if you are careful about it. Of all the reviews I have read, the 3805 has more useful power, at least in terms of 1,2,&5 channels, than the 630. The 635 does not have more power than the 630, just more features.

 

[PENG]

I am currently in talks with a dealer for a nad 773. Says it was listed at 2500, it is a demo, 2 weeks old, and I can have it for 1999. I don't know if that's a good price of not since I am not finding a lot of places in Canada to get the Nad near me.

I can get a denon 3805 for ~1450.

If the nad is considered "warm" then the denon is what I'll go for. But the nad is tempting for that power.

$1,999 for a 773 sounds reasonable, whether it is worth $550 over the 3805 is hard to say.

 

[rikmeister]

i just got a denon 3805 for 651.00 plus 39.95 shipping. so that is awful high for

one. you could buy two and have money left over at that price.

 

[Zarg]

Como?

I would look into the Marantz 8400. Sounds like a perfect fit for you.

The HK would work too. I'd stay away from the Denon, as it doesn't drive those low ohm loads that well.

Hey buddy, not to get in your face or anything, but can you provide some support for your comment regarding the Denon? It contradicts what Clint has posted previously.

There are a number of areas in which other receivers are better than the 3805 ... but driving low ohm loads ain't one of them. In fact, the 3805 was chosen over the Yamaha 2500 as Receiver of the Year on this site, based on its amplifier being significantly better. At least, that's what I remember Clint posting several months ago when challenged on the decision.

Bottom line is that there are several choices available to drive the M80's ... and the Denon certainly has to be considered a contender.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

Hey buddy, not to get in your face or anything, but can you provide some support for your comment regarding the Denon? It contradicts what Clint has posted previously.

There are a number of areas in which other receivers are better than the 3805 ... but driving low ohm loads ain't one of them. In fact, the 3805 was chosen over the Yamaha 2500 as Receiver of the Year on this site, based on its amplifier being significantly better. At least, that's what I remember Clint posting several months ago when challenged on the decision.

Bottom line is that there are several choices available to drive the M80's ... and the Denon certainly has to be considered a contender.

I'll vouch for him. Check out the specs of the M80ti:
Max Amp Power: 400 Watts
Freq Resp +/-3dB (Hz): 34 - 22kHz Graph
Impedance (Ohms): 4 Ohmz
SPL Anechoic 1w/1m(dB): 91 dB
X-Over 160Hz & 2.3kHz
Tweeter: Dual 1"
Woofer: Dual 5.25"
Sub Woofer: Dual 6.5"

Check out the specs of the Polk RTi10:
Subwoofer 2 - 7"
Mid/Woofer 1 - 6-1/2"
Tweeter 1 - 1"
Overall Frequency Response 20Hz-27kHz
Lower -3dB Limit 35Hz
Upper -3dB Limit 26kHz
Nominal Impedance 8 ohms (separate, 4 ohm jumped)
Recommended Amplifier Power 20-300 w/channel
Efficiency 89 dB
Crossover 2.7kHz, 12dB/octave low and high pass. 125Hz 12dB/octave high
(subwoofer) 125Hz, 12dB/octave low pass

For the most part, these specs are somewhat similar. I'll give the Axioms one benefit for the 91dB vs 89dB spl rating - but not much else due to their 4 ohm rating. I own a 3805 and a pair of Polk RTi10's. Although I can't vouch for the M80ti's, I will say you need more power than what the 3805 can dish out to get towers such as the RTi10's to unload. You just won't get the low end you've paid for from these towers. Some would say "that's what subs are for." Then I say, buy bookshelves (or 8-ohm 91+ spl rated towers). Don't waste good money on bi-ampable or power hungry 4 ohm low spl speakers. Otherwise I wouldn't be in the market for a separate amp to drive them. Those Axioms, if (I use that word cautiously) they are anything like the Polks, are pigs. If you think anything less than a HK7300 (or another flagship receiver with a power consumption under 10 amps) can do it flawlessly, my hat goes off. The 3805 is a wonderful piece of equipment and technology, but it is not an endless supply of power. If you choose to set your speakers to "small" as is recommended by many forum members, there is no need to splurge on towers that don't deserve the "small" setting.

 

[PENG]

I have to agree with Zarg. We are responding to the Steve's specific questions. There is no disagreement to the point that towers like the Axiom and the RTi10 will do better with more power from something like HK and NAD flag ship receivers, but the 635 does not have more power (up to 5 channels) than the 3805. The reverse is likely true, there is no reason to believe it can do better driving the highly efficient M80.

 

[Takeereasy]

Just a couple of quick things. #1: Rikmeister, Steve and I are up in Canada. If that $651 for a Denon 3805 is in Canadian Funds let me know and I'll start buying them to resell at that price. There are no authorized internet dealers for Denon in Canada (at least none on their website) and Someone I know bought a 1905 for $500 after taxes just the other day. And you know what? That was considered a good deal. $1450 is a lot of money but it's a pretty good price on a 3805 up North sad to say.

#2 The Axioms are very nice speakers but they are not very efficient at all. Receiver wise if he can get the Nad for $2K it's his best bet. It is very stable at lower impedances. I still think that a Yamaha 2500 or 1500 with a 2 channel amp is a viable alternative. Just go to the Axiom discussion forums and ask them if those 80's are power hungry. There are a ton of people who will tell you that they are and that they really want that extra power to shine to their fullest. Better yet just email Axiom directly and they'll tell you the same thing. Steve would be doing himself a disservice to purchase such nice speakers and then underpower them and rob himself of the full potential.

 

[MacManNM]

Hey buddy, not to get in your face or anything, but can you provide some support for your comment regarding the Denon? It contradicts what Clint has posted previously.

There are a number of areas in which other receivers are better than the 3805 ... but driving low ohm loads ain't one of them. In fact, the 3805 was chosen over the Yamaha 2500 as Receiver of the Year on this site, based on its amplifier being significantly better. At least, that's what I remember Clint posting several months ago when challenged on the decision.

Bottom line is that there are several choices available to drive the M80's ... and the Denon certainly has to be considered a contender.

First off Clint didn't do a bench measurement on this unit.

Second look at the Specs that Denon puts out:

They rate the 3805:
20-20KHz 120w/ch @ 0.05% THD (full bandwidth) 8 ohms. However they also rate it:
20-20KHz 160w/ch @ 0.7% THD (1 KHz) 6 ohms

If this unit had the ability to drive the lower Z loads as you say, it would have a THD spec @ 6 ohms almost identical to the 8 ohm rating, not to mention they don't even rate it full bandwidth. This tells me that either the PS is current limited or the inherent design is. This unit does not like the lower loads. It is not designed to drive them.


Now lets look at the Marantz its ratings are:
20-20KHz 110w/ch @ 0.08% THD (full bandwidth) 8 ohms
and
20-20KHz 135w/ch @ 0.05% THD (full bandwidth) 6 ohms

This tells me it has a better PS and can handle the low Z loads well. I'd say if it was rated at 4 ohms, it would be around 150 w/ch full bdw rated.

Bottom line the Denon isn't a contender.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

look at the Specs that Denon puts out:

They rate the 3805:
20-20KHz 120w/ch @ 0.05% THD (full bandwidth) 8 ohms. However they also rate it:
20-20KHz 160w/ch @ 0.7% THD (1 KHz) 6 ohms

If this unit had the ability to drive the lower Z loads as you say, it would have a THD spec @ 6 ohms almost identical to the 8 ohm rating, not to mention they don't even rate it full bandwidth. This tells me that either the PS is current limited or the inherent design is. This unit does not like the lower loads. It is not designed to drive them.
Now lets look at the Marantz its ratings are:
20-20KHz 110w/ch @ 0.08% THD (full bandwidth) 8 ohms
and
20-20KHz 135w/ch @ 0.05% THD (full bandwidth) 6 ohms
This tells me it has a better PS and can handle the low Z loads well. I'd say if it was rated at 4 ohms, it would be around 150 w/ch full bdw rated.

I've got a call in to Denon to get an accurate measurement at 6 ohms with full bandwidth at .05 thd on the 3805. I'm sure they have that measurement and know their customers drive speakers at 4 and 6 ohms. Lets see what it actually is.

Finally spoke to the tech department. Their number is 800-497-8921 if anyone needs to call. First off, I told them the setup I was running and how the 3805 just didn't seem to effortlessly drive the Polk RTi10's. I then commented that the Polks were reading 4.1 (DCR) on a meter when the dual (bi-ampable) speaker terminals were "jumped," 7.4 on the top; 8 on the bottom when tested individually. Finally-the big question-, was why Denon elected to spec out the 6 ohm rating at 1000Hz instead of full bandwidth and at .7 thd instead of .05. The answer I got didn't surprise me. With a full bandwidth rating, at .05 thd and 6 ohms, the unit will put out approximately 150 watts per channel in stereo mode. My guess was 140. The guy also told me they never recommend driving 4 ohm speakers with any of their units, as they can overheat and shut down. All of their units have filters, or "current limiters" which protect these units incase of hard driving and extended listening at reference levels. I asked the tech if that's the case, why not just disconnect the jumpers and run the top half of the speaker at 7.4, since the bass would be lacking due to the demands on the amp. Many of us have speakers in the 4-5 impedence arena, and it would be foolish to manufacturer a unit that couldn't drive what the industry is marketing. He "remarked it would be more beneficial to set the towers to 'small' and jump the towers - and simply to use extra caution when driving the unit hard." Moral of the story? Don't buy pigs if you can't feed them.