Awkward room layout, BDI stand issue, and too many crossovers

[bradsmith]

Hey everyone,

I've been a lurker on and off for awhile, but I'm trying to get my living room setup in my condo and could use some help and advice. I know things are never going to be perfect because it's not a dedicated home theater room, but I think it can be a lot better than it is.

There are two things I'm looking for help with. One is a more immediate problem and the second is more broad layout and setup help. For reference at any time during the post, here's a link to a gallery with photos of the current setup and a rough floor plan: Dropbox - Home Theatre - Simplify your life

Here's the first problem. I've had a 52" Sony HX909 sitting on the floor while I looked for the perfect TV stand to match what I wanted in my apartment. I had the centre channel just sitting on the floor in front of the TV and the left and right mains placement wasn't in an ideal spot. It wasn't a great setup, but it sounded pretty good.

I finally gave in and spent more than I'd like on the BDI Ola (they make some pretty awesome TV stands). I got it setup last weekend. All the components are now inside the stand (including the center channel on the center shelf) and the mains are now moved into a more appropriate position on either side of the stand. You can see the setup in the photo gallery I linked to.

The problem? Now everything sounds off. More specifically, there's an echo-y, boomy-ness to the sound. Some of that appears to be positioning issues with the subwoofer, etc, but it also seems really focused on the voices. It's like the voices are coming from a hollow box — especially male voices. I tried tweaking the dials in various places with only minor impact.

Well, it turns out my center channel is an AV123 ELT Center. Looking at the specs reveals the following:

System: 3-Way, 4-Driver, rear-ported enclosure.
Drivers: custom 5.25" long-throw aluminum cone woofers, custom 2.5” paper composite midrange, hybrid silk-suspended alloy dome tweeter.
Frequency Response: 60 Hz to 20 KHz (± 3 dB)
Impedance: 6 Ohms nominal.
Efficiency: 87 dB (@ 1 watt / 1 meter)

So, crap. It's rear ported. I'm guessing that's most likely my problem. Unfortunately the back of the BDI unit is fixed (only the side shelves have optional backs, not the center shelves). Is there any way I can fix this while still using the BDI stand?

The second problem is more general layout tips and settings advice. You can see the room layout in the photo gallery I linked at the beginning of the post. The living room is open into the kitchen (basically an L shape) with a little nook to the left of where I currently have the Main L speaker for entry into the bathroom and the bedroom. The right side wall when facing the TV is floor to ceiling windows that moves in and out in various nooks (see the photos and the layout for an example). Obviously not the most ideal room to work with.

Here's the speakers and the settings available on them:

Mains:
AV123 Onix ELT LRS special edition monitors

System: LRSse Satellites - 2-Way, 2-Driver, rear-ported enclosure.
Drivers: custom 5.25" long-throw aluminum cone woofers, hybrid silk-suspended alloy dome tweeter. Magnetically shielded.
Crossover Point: 3.8 kHz
Frequency Response: 65 Hz to 20 KHz (± 3 dB)

connected to…
AV123 Onix ELT Powered Base/Stand

Driver: One custom 8" sealed side-firing woofer with built-in 150 watt amplifier
High Pass: The 8" woofer is high passed at 31Hz
Frequency Response: 33Hz to 150Hz

The bookshelves are connected via jumper cables to the powered base/stands. The base/stands have the a volume dial, a crossover dial (from 40Hz to 150Hz), and a phase switch (with 0º and 180º as options).

Center Channel
see earlier in the post

Rears
AV123 Onix ELT Dipoles

System: Two-way, four-driver mirrored adaptive-dipole system in sealed enclosure
Drivers: Two custom 3/4" aluminum dome tweeters, two custom 5.25" long-throw aluminum cone woofers
Crossover: 3.8 kHz, 3rd-order alignment
Frequency Response: 62 Hz to 20 KHz (± 3 dB)

Subwoofer
AV123 Onix ELT SW-10se Subwoofer

System: 350W Powered 10” long-throw woofer, front-ported enclosure.
Drivers: Custom 10” paper-composite long-throw driver
Crossover Point: 40 Hz – 140 Hz
Frequency Response: 28 Hz to 150 Hz (± 3 dB)

The subwoofer has dials for frequency (30Hz to 150Hz), phase (0º to 180º), and level (min to max).

I have a Denon AVR-988 receiver which allows for custom crossovers for each speaker.

As you can imagine, there's a lot of potential places to make settings. My biggest question is probably how I should look at setting all the crossover and phase options where there are so many places to set it…

- Main speaker size (currently set to Small)
- Crossover for mains in the receiver (currently set to 60Hz in the Denon)
- Crossover for the mains on the powered base/stands (currently set to around 100Hz)
- Phase switch for the mains on the powered base/stands (currently set to 0º)
- Frequency/crossover for the subwoofer (currently set to 150Hz on the dial)
- Phase dial for the subwoofer (currently set to 0º)
- etc.

Any advice on how to deal with all the interplay between these crossover and phase settings/dials?

Also, any advice or tips on how to improve my current layout in this room?

Any help is appreciate. Thanks!

-Brad

 

[MDS]

- Main speaker size (currently set to Small)
- Crossover for mains in the receiver (currently set to 60Hz in the Denon)
- Crossover for the mains on the powered base/stands (currently set to around 100Hz)
- Phase switch for the mains on the powered base/stands (currently set to 0º)
- Frequency/crossover for the subwoofer (currently set to 150Hz on the dial)
- Phase dial for the subwoofer (currently set to 0º)
- etc.

Any advice on how to deal with all the interplay between these crossover and phase settings/dials?

Also, any advice or tips on how to improve my current layout in this room?

- All speakers set to Small.

- Crossover for mains should probably be at 80 Hz as the mains only go down to 60 Hz. The rule of thumb is half to one octave above the -3 dB point of the speakers (which would be 90 - 120 Hz), but 80 Hz generally works well enough.

- You have to experiment with the Phase switch. Generally, if the sub is in front of you 0 often works best and if behind you, 180 often works - but there is no way to 'know' without simply messing with it as you calibrate the system.

- Crossover on the sub should be set as high as it can go or if the sub has a special LFE input or switch to disable the crossover use that input or flip the switch to disable it. The AVR is already doing the bass management.

- The center channel is way too recessed into the stand. Pull it out so it is flush with the front of the stand. That will also help a little with it being rear ported as at least there will be some room for it to breathe. The only other thing you can do is cut a hole in the back of the stand, but I'm sure you'd rather not do that to a nice new stand.

 

[bradsmith]

Thanks for the reply!

- Crossover for mains should probably be at 80 Hz as the mains only go down to 60 Hz. The rule of thumb is half to one octave above the -3 dB point of the speakers (which would be 90 - 120 Hz), but 80 Hz generally works well enough.

You would set the crossover so high even though the mains go down to 33Hz for me? Note that I have a powered base/stand that has a woofer in it. The receiver is wired into them as the mains and then there are jumper cables up to the bookshelf speakers sitting on top (hence the additional crossover dial on the stands themselves).

- The center channel is way too recessed into the stand. Pull it out so it is flush with the front of the stand. That will also help a little with it being rear ported as at least there will be some room for it to breathe. The only other thing you can do is cut a hole in the back of the stand, but I'm sure you'd rather not do that to a nice new stand.

I'll try pulling it forward a bit more. Would you experiment with raising the crossover on the center channel to 100Hz or 120Hz as well?

 

[MDS]

You would set the crossover so high even though the mains go down to 33Hz for me? Note that I have a powered base/stand that has a woofer in it. The receiver is wired into them as the mains and then there are jumper cables up to the bookshelf speakers sitting on top (hence the additional crossover dial on the stands themselves).

Ok, I get it now. I saw 65 Hz as the low frequency extension on the monitors and didn't understand the relationship between them and the powered base.

So basically what you have is 'mains' that include a powered subwoofer (like many DefTech speakers) AND you have an actual subwoofer.

- Use the powered base + monitors as intended. You need to set the front channels in the AVR to Large so they get a full range signal. The 'sub' in the powered base will do the bass for the main channels and you should set its crossover to 80 Hz or 100 Hz since the monitors to which it is connected only go down to 65 Hz.

- Set all other channels to Small so the actual subwoofer will handle their bass. But you want the real sub's xover all the way up or disabled if the sub is connected to the receiver's sub pre-out.

 

[bradsmith]

Ok, I get it now. I saw 65 Hz as the low frequency extension on the monitors and didn't understand the relationship between them and the powered base.

So basically what you have is 'mains' that include a powered subwoofer (like many DefTech speakers) AND you have an actual subwoofer.

- Use the powered base + monitors as intended. You need to set the front channels in the AVR to Large so they get a full range signal. The 'sub' in the powered base will do the bass for the main channels and you should set its crossover to 80 Hz or 100 Hz since the monitors to which it is connected only go down to 65 Hz.

- Set all other channels to Small so the actual subwoofer will handle their bass. But you want the real sub's xover all the way up or disabled if the sub is connected to the receiver's sub pre-out.

Thanks, MDS. I've pulled the speaker further forward so that the front of the speaker is flush with or in front of the front-most edge of the stand. Even tried stuffing socks into the two small ports on the back and raised the crossover higher. Still getting that's boxy/echo-y/boomy sound.

As for setting the fronts to large and tweaking some things, everything is sounding much better on that front. It's just looking like I may need to modify the stand or get a new center channel.

 

[Alex2507]

... tried stuffing socks into the two small ports ...

I may need to modify the stand or get a new center channel.

You don't want to plug the ports and isolating the center from the stand with something like MoPads will help. The AH store doesn't seem to sell them any longer but Amazon does providing you have the room. Alternately you can wall mount the TV a little higher and place the center on the top shelf ... with MoPads ... that's probably your best option.

 

[bradsmith]

You don't want to plug the ports and isolating the center from the stand with something like MoPads will help. The AH store doesn't seem to sell them any longer but Amazon does providing you have the room. Alternately you can wall mount the TV a little higher and place the center on the top shelf ... with MoPads ... that's probably your best option.

Sadly I don't have enough room on the shelf for the MoPads (unless I ditch the glass shelf entirely). Are little rubber feet good enough?

I'm also going to try to re-run Audyssey again now that I've made some modifications to things and see if that might help the setup.

 

[Alex2507]

Sadly I don't have enough room on the shelf for the MoPads (unless I ditch the glass shelf entirely). Are little rubber feet good enough?

I'm also going to try to re-run Audyssey again now that I've made some modifications to things and see if that might help the setup.

Rubber feet and Audyssey run for the current configuration can't hurt but IMO nothing is going to have as big an impact as getting that center out of the echo chamber that is those two shelves. Short of that do as MDS suggested and pull it out as far as possible. Better than the rubber feet would be a neoprene closed cell foam pad about 1/2" thick to rest the center on.

 

[bradsmith]

Rubber feet and Audyssey run for the current configuration can't hurt but IMO nothing is going to have as big an impact as getting that center out of the echo chamber that is those two shelves. Short of that do as MDS suggested and pull it out as far as possible. Better than the rubber feet would be a neoprene closed cell foam pad about 1/2" thick to rest the center on.

Yeah. I know. I've emailed BDI to see how much I could cut out of the back of the stand. Not sure how much that would help, though. Mounting the speaker above the TV would be too high (IMO) and be tough to find a good shelf that gets it far enough away from the wall.

I'm going to see where I can find the neoprene foam pad you mentioned here in Vancouver.

 

[Alex2507]

Yeah. I know. I've emailed BDI to see how much I could cut out of the back of the stand. Not sure how much that would help, though. Mounting the speaker above the TV would be too high (IMO) and be tough to find a good shelf that gets it far enough away from the wall.

I'm going to see where I can find the neoprene foam pad you mentioned here in Vancouver.

Just to be clear I meant wall mounting the TV a little higher to allow room for the center on the top shelf. I wouldn't cut into the stand.

 

[bradsmith]

Just to be clear I meant wall mounting the TV a little higher to allow room for the center on the top shelf. I wouldn't cut into the stand.

Ah. Sorry. My mistake. I'll have to look into this and whether I can properly wall mount the TV in my apartment. Two issues come to mind: the owner (even though I am renting long term) and the studs (which are metal).

 

[Alex2507]

Ah. Sorry. My mistake. I'll have to look into this and whether I can properly wall mount the TV in my apartment. Two issues come to mind: the owner (even though I am renting long term) and the studs (which are metal).

I do metal framing and can tell you that mounting edge banded 3/4" piece of plywood (spray painted flat black) that spans 3 studs and anchoring your mount to that won't be a problem. You would want to pre-drill and counter sink the plywood and be careful not to strip out the screws but I'm sure you can imagine that 3 or 4 screws in each stud totaling 9-12 screws all together would hold up pretty much anything.

In the end you owe the landlord the very minimal wall prep and some touch up paint ... or even the paint for the whole wall. Hardly a consideration when weighed against good sound.

BTW, nice place and nice gear.

 

[bradsmith]

Hey guys,

So I ran Audyssey and here's what it did:
- all speakers to small (even the fronts which have the woofers in the base)
- Bumped the subwoofer up 2.5, center down 2.0, and the front right up 0.5
- did a custom EQ
- drastically changed crossover settings

The crossover changes seem weird to me.
Fronts: 150Hz
Center: 60Hz
Surrounds: 40 Hz

This seems wrong. What's up with those settings? I can post photos of the configuration it made if that helps.

 

[TLS Guy]

Hey guys,

So I ran Audyssey and here's what it did:
- all speakers to small (even the fronts which have the woofers in the base)
- Bumped the subwoofer up 2.5, center down 2.0, and the front right up 0.5
- did a custom EQ
- drastically changed crossover settings

The crossover changes seem weird to me.
Fronts: 150Hz
Center: 60Hz
Surrounds: 40 Hz

This seems wrong. What's up with those settings? I can post photos of the configuration it made if that helps.

Yes, it does not make sense.

Personally I don't think you will get anywhere until you mount that center above the TV. It will not be too high.

Right now you have a mess of stand reflections and floor reflections.

Find a way to mount the center above the TV and you won't look back.

I would run you fronts full range, and set the sub crossover on the receiver to 60 Hz and set the other speakers to small. Turn the crossover on the sub up as high as you can.

 

[bradsmith]

Thanks, TLS. I'm actually looking for a good shelf that matches my setup here to go above the tv. When I finish that, I'll rerun Audyssey again and see what happens. Is 12" enough space to leave between the speaker and the wall when on the shelf?

 

[TLS Guy]

Thanks, TLS. I'm actually looking for a good shelf that matches my setup here to go above the tv. When I finish that, I'll rerun Audyssey again and see what happens. Is 12" enough space to leave between the speaker and the wall when on the shelf?

10" to 14" is a good range, so you will be right in the middle.