AVR recommendations?

superman180

superman180

Audioholic
I apologize in advance, I'm sure the forum is littered with this type of question.

I am back in the market for a updated Receiver, currently I am still running my old RX-V 2500 paired with my B&W CDM-7nt's.
The 2500 has served me very well. I am a fan of Yamaha given the longevity and performance I have gotten with the 2500.

I'm torn between the new Yamaha A6A or the AVR-X4700.
Concerns are mainly power output to drive the B&W's, current Receiver is rated at 130WPC so the A6A at 150 seems like a mild improvement where the Denon is just shy of the 2500 @ 125 more than likely a non issue.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks.
Mike.
 
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G

gellert

Audiophyte
I would go with the Yamaha..... I have been converted into Yamaha for about a year now :) I personally like the sound better from Yamaha than Denon:)
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Hard to know what your amp needs are without more information, like your distance from the speakers, your spl levels for playback and is this just a pair of speakers? More? Subs? The difference in power is not significant among the avrs mentioned, and believe they're all fairly equally capable of lower impedance speakers.
 
superman180

superman180

Audioholic
Hard to know what your amp needs are without more information, like your distance from the speakers, your spl levels for playback and is this just a pair of speakers? More? Subs? The difference in power is not significant among the AVR's mentioned, and believe they're all fairly equally capable of lower impedance speakers.
I should have given more details, my thought was given the 2500 was doing fine in terms of power that would be enough info. I just want to make sure I am not taking a step in the wrong direction. Main reasons for upgrade is connectivity and current video/audio formats. This is a system rebuild, I sold most of my gear a few years ago.

Currently I only have the 2500 running the 7nt's and a CDM CNT. Will be purchasing the Monoprice 16in THX sub and haven't decided on surround speakers yet, possibly monoprice.

Thanks again.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I should have given more details, my thought was given the 2500 was doing fine in terms of power that would be enough info. I just want to make sure I am not taking a step in the wrong direction. Main reasons for upgrade is connectivity and current video/audio formats. This is a system rebuild, I sold most of my gear a few years ago.

Currently I only have the 2500 running the 7nt's and a CDM CNT. Will be purchasing the Monoprice 16in THX sub and haven't decided on surround speakers yet, possibly monoprice.

Thanks again.
The AVR-X4700H is a proven product now and it measured very well, most likely much better than the RX-A6A. If you ask for input on the so called "sound quality" reason, at this level of AVR I would say while the Denon measured better on the bench, in practical terms they are both transparent enough especially for watchin movies. Some will say one sounds better than the other but unless they have done truly apple to apple comparison listening tests, and followed good protocols, such claims would be based on each individual's perception and listening environment, expectation bias etc., that may not apply to you. Between the very outdated RX-V2500 though, I would say that under many conditions you may actually hear some improvement in sound quality if you go with either the AVR-X4700H or the Yamaha RX-A6A.

So unless you can have two side by side to do a proper test, you best bet would be to make your choice based on objective data, such as features, specs and measurements. Yamaha in general has been said to be more reliable, but I am sure how reliable that is either.

I suggested our resident insider @M Code to try and give us an update on whether in recent years (say for the last 3 to 5 years) Yamaha is still the king of reliability in terms of failure rate, and being bug free but haven't heard from him for a long time.

There has been a lot of users who experienced both Y and D/M's comparable models and found Yamaha's run cooler. In my own experience, I have no concerned with D or M's potential heat issue because I always use a fan or 2 and have them on full time at low speed regardless.

Just one more point, if you decide to go with the Denon, and if you are one who may be concerned about the news that D+M at one point mentioned since the spring of this year, he had to replace the AKM DAC IC (shortage due to the factory fire) and they have not disclose the replacement IC. If you search on the net, you will find all kinds rumors with almost no substantiated facts available at the moment. To play it safe, some people would check the serial number before purchase, to make sure they would get one that was made prior to the DAC IC replacement.


1638367622934.png
 
A

Am_P

Audioholic
I find it strange that users talk about a specific "sound" with a flagship level Yamaha receiver. You couldn't possibly tie it to a certain sound. They give you a full blown PEQ and so many tweaks even on a older receiver like my RX 3070. You can change the sound to whatever suits your tastes. This was a shock discovery to me when I initially moved over from the more restrictive world of 2 channel gear.

I have never owned a high end Denon. So I don't know what myriad of tweak options it comes with. I did read somewhere that it only has a GEQ? which is more restrictive than PEQ. Other Denon owners may be able to tell you if that has changed with their higher end receivers.

Other than that, you would want a high quality DAC implementation and preamp sections for higher levels of detail and clarity. I think this could be similar in all these brands above a certain price point. So, it would be the amount of tweaking options you get that eventually matters.
 
VASKION

VASKION

Junior Audioholic
To play it safe, some people would check the serial number before purchase, to make sure they would get one that was made prior to the DAC IC replacement.
This unfortunately could send you back to some units that have issues with HDMI 2.1 support and needed some internals replacement which resulted in SN greater than 7000001 or something. So I guess you will have to make a compromise with one or the other...

Yamaha:
- More power
- Supports balanced In/Out for the fronts
- The scenes switch now can remember a lot of stuff even the speaker configuration and revoke it through only 1 button press while Denon don't have such option. I find it very useful
- The web interface is renewed and now it has a looot of stuff. There is a video from Gene in youtube about it
- 7x HDMI 2.1
- It supports 1 more Zone pre out than the Denon
- Chromecast support
- Backlit remote control

Denon:
- Has preout mode which disconnects all the internal amplifiers
- You can set the remote to control other devices you have connected to the AVR
- Audyssey XT32
- 1x HDMI 2.1
- IMAX Enhaced
- No FM Tuner for the European models
- RS232 input

Apart from these I think they are almost the same as features. I would also go with the Yamaha though...
 
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ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Warlord
- 7x HDMI 2.1
Which don’t currently operate as advertised… pending a firmware update which was promised for this Autumn. (With three weeks remaining for Yamaha to keep that promise, word is that it is being pushed into next year.)
And we still won’t know if it all actually works until it’s released and tested.
Oh, and we still don’t know what the testing flaws are that @gene found and how they effect performance.

To the OP: I stand by my position that waiting right now is the best strategy, if you can. Wait until Sound United unveils their 2022 lineup and see how the new Denon and Marantz options will compete with a flawed product from Yamaha.
 
superman180

superman180

Audioholic
I appreciate all the info and advice, it’s exactly what I was looking for!! First on my list is the sub so I’m a least a couple months away from a receiver purchase. I will keep an eye out for more info on the A6A. I really have enjoyed the 2500 it has been a suburb unit but it is very outdated. For a short time I had the RX-A 3040 and while it had a slew of upgrades from the 2500 I would say it had zero sound improvement or headroom imho which was okay but a little disappointing given the price, maybe my expectation were too high. If that wasn’t the case I probably wouldn’t be looking at any of the other brands.
Mike.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I am back in the market for a updated Receiver, currently I am still running my old RX-V 2500 paired with my B&W CDM-7nt...I'm torn between the new Yamaha A6A or the AVR-X4700....Concerns are mainly power output to drive the B&W's...
Both x4700 and A6A will power your B&W fine, just like how the V2500 powered your speakers and most speakers just fine.
 
M

Maddtix

Audiophyte
I apologize in advance, I'm sure the forum is littered with this type of question.

I am back in the market for a updated Receiver, currently I am still running my old RX-V 2500 paired with my B&W CDM-7nt's.
The 2500 has served me very well. I am a fan of Yamaha given the longevity and performance I have gotten with the 2500.

I'm torn between the new Yamaha A6A or the AVR-X4700.
Concerns are mainly power output to drive the B&W's, current Receiver is rated at 130WPC so the A6A at 150 seems like a mild improvement where the Denon is just shy of the 2500 @ 125 more than likely a non issue.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks.
Mike.
[/QUOT I would go with the one that has a pre out. leaving you the option to add a small power amp. I have CDM nt series and can tell you most all B&W speakers like power. I know Denon has a POA5200 they used to sell and have seen them pretty cheap on Ebay. Receivers are not what they used to be. I would use the Yamaha they have a good rep even on here. outlaw has some good sounding amps that are not bad on price. then if you can find a used one that would be even better. just some thoughts for you
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
This unfortunately could send you back to some units that have issues with HDMI 2.1 support and needed some internals replacement which resulted in SN greater than 7000001 or something. So I guess you will have to make a compromise with one or the other...

Yamaha:
- More power
- Supports balanced In/Out for the fronts
- The scenes switch now can remember a lot of stuff even the speaker configuration and revoke it through only 1 button press while Denon don't have such option. I find it very useful
- The web interface is renewed and now it has a looot of stuff. There is a video from Gene in youtube about it
- 7x HDMI 2.1
- It supports 1 more Zone pre out than the Denon
- Chromecast support
- Backlit remote control

Denon:
- Has preout mode which disconnects all the internal amplifiers
- You can set the remote to control other devices you have connected to the AVR
- Audyssey XT32
- 1x HDMI 2.1
- IMAX Enhaced
- No FM Tuner for the European models
- RS232 input

Apart from these I think they are almost the same as features. I would also go with the Yamaha though...
Excellent point about the balanced I/O for the front left/right channel. Unfortunately until Yamaha address the THD+N issues when using those I/Os, it would be useless for people who don't have their interconnects longer than 2 to 3 meters. The higher distortions+noise from the balanced connections vs the unbalanced were found to be huge (see Gene's review on the CX-A5200) though likely still be below the threshold of audibility, but still, there is something not done right, and why would anyone use them if distortions and noise would increase by so much. Again, that is unless someone must use long interconnect cables with their power amp.

Just one more point, in Gene's first video, he found another THD+N issue with the A6A or A8A (don't remember, need to double check), this time it is about much higher THD+N on some channels. It that doesn't bother you then its all good.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I find it strange that users talk about a specific "sound" with a flagship level Yamaha receiver. You couldn't possibly tie it to a certain sound. They give you a full blown PEQ and so many tweaks even on a older receiver like my RX 3070. You can change the sound to whatever suits your tastes. This was a shock discovery to me when I initially moved over from the more restrictive world of 2 channel gear.

I have never owned a high end Denon. So I don't know what myriad of tweak options it comes with. I did read somewhere that it only has a GEQ? which is more restrictive than PEQ. Other Denon owners may be able to tell you if that has changed with their higher end receivers.

Other than that, you would want a high quality DAC implementation and preamp sections for higher levels of detail and clarity. I think this could be similar in all these brands above a certain price point. So, it would be the amount of tweaking options you get that eventually matters.
If we are talking about sound quality in direct mode without using any dsp functions, then I agree with your point on the specific sound thing for some reasons people bought into. There is no logic to that at all, in fact if such specific sound/or sound signature is there by design then it won't be truly hifi, and the designers would be guessing what kind of sound most people would prefer, or the specific sound would be there just by chance. I would stick with accuracy/transparency/neutrality and if I want a different "sound" then as you said, just use EQ.

Regarding Yamaha's PEQ vs Denon/Marantz's GEQ, as you pointed out PEQ is superior. However, for those who use REQ, D+M's Audyssey is better at least in theory because its filters are FIR based vs Yamaha's IIR, both have pros and cons depending on implementation but overall, in theory FIR (FIR vs IIR filtering (minidsp.com) ) is better, and most users who use REW to check the post calibration effect tend to show Yamaha's YPAO (IIR/PEQ based) not as effective. For tweaking, users of Audyssey, would have to use the MultEQ app to do it, and Yamaha users could do some tweaking too via the manual PEQ feature to supplement YPAO. So yes one can tweak D+M vias the MultEQ app that provides tons of flexibility, more so than Yamaha's manual PEQ, but you have to buy it for $20 and for some users, there may be a learn curve.
 
VASKION

VASKION

Junior Audioholic
Excellent point about the balanced I/O for the front left/right channel. Unfortunately until Yamaha address the THD+N issues when using those I/Os, it would be useless for people who don't have their interconnects longer than 2 to 3 meters. The higher distortions+noise from the balanced connections vs the unbalanced were found to be huge (see Gene's review on the CX-A5200) though likely still be below the threshold of audibility, but still, there is something not done right, and why would anyone use them if distortions and noise would increase by so much. Again, that is unless someone must use long interconnect cables with their power amp.
Yes, he found some issues with the balanced output caused by the volume control on CX-A5200. He also said that RX-A3080 does not have it so we are not sure whether A4A/A6A/A8A have it. Maybe Gene found the exact same issues here with A6A on the test bench maybe there is something else wrong. We are all waiting to see the official review with the final results...
 
VASKION

VASKION

Junior Audioholic
Also, Onkyo TX-RZ50 and the upcoming higher models for 2022 seem pretty decent option as well. They have Dirac Live which is supposed to be better than YPAO and Audyssey...
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Yes, he found some issues with the balanced output caused by the volume control on CX-A5200. He also said that RX-A3080 does not have it so we are not sure whether A4A/A6A/A8A have it. Maybe Gene found the exact same issues here with A6A on the test bench maybe there is something else wrong. We are all waiting to see the official review with the final results...
Okay I didn't know that, I didn't think he had measured the RX-A3080 though, would love to read it if he did. I just search and couldn't find it, can you post a link please? Thank you.
 
S

snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
Okay I didn't know that, I didn't think he had measured the RX-A3080 though, would love to read it if he did. I just search and couldn't find it, can you post a link please? Thank you.
I don’t think Gene measured the 3080 but there was a review on RX-A3000 that Gene did, however that model had all RCA pre-outs. I do remember Gene specifically saying the balanced connection issues on 5200 were not found on 5100 or 3080. I’m thinking that comment would have been on the thread for the 5200 review most likely.
 
VASKION

VASKION

Junior Audioholic
Okay I didn't know that, I didn't think he had measured the RX-A3080 though, would love to read it if he did. I just search and couldn't find it, can you post a link please? Thank you.
I am not sure whether he measured the RX-A3080. I guess no. But what I said here is from the video on the CX-A5200 measurements. This is the moment when he starts talking about his conversation with Yamaha:
 
G

Golfx

Audioholic
So I’m with PENG on the Denon reliability + better bench measurements. Why would you purchase other units known or suspected to have flaws?


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