AV receiver or custom pre-amp

[Kosta]

I have ordered a custom active 5.1 speaker system and I am trying to decided whether to go with the new denon 3700 in pre-amp mode or order a custom tube pre-amp/Dac instead.

What makes this decision so difficult is the fact that this is my first system so I have zero experience when it comes to the sound quality of receiver pre-amps vs dedicated pre-amps.
Secondly, since the pre-amp will be custom, when it comes to movies it will only support audio formats that do not require a decoder (such as AC3)

There is always the option to buy both the receiver for movies and a custom stereo pre-amp for music but it will increase my budget by 1000€.

Will the receiver in pre-amp mode be enough for both movies and music or there will be a significant improvement in quality if I go with the custom tube pre-amp?

If I go with the custom pre-amp, will the AC3 format be enough quality-wise or is there a noticeable difference between AC3 and TrueHD/DTS-HD?

Finally, if you recommend me to buy both, will the quality improvement justify the 1000€ budget increase?

Unfortunately I don't have enough info about what is inside the custom tube preamp/Dac so if that's a problem, you can compare it to a standard 1000€ tubed preamp.

Thank you in advance

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Sound quality of AVR vs Preamp/Pre-pro? Should be about the same if everything else is the same (same settings, setup).

I would want something with 4K-8K HDMI for video and Dolby Atmos/DTSX for sound.

No way I would just want the old AC3 for sound or just 2K (1080p) for video.

 

[Speedskater]

The question comes down to:
Do you want an accurate sound system or an euphonic sound system?

 

[Kosta]

The question comes down to:
Do you want an accurate sound system or an euphonic sound system?

I want as accurate sound as possible from my system. What would you recommend for my case?

 

[Kosta]

Sound quality of AVR vs Preamp/Pre-pro? Should be about the same if everything else is the same (same settings, setup).

I would want something with 4K-8K HDMI for video and Dolby Atmos/DTSX for sound.

No way I would just want the old AC3 for sound or just 2K (1080p) for video.

The thing is that I read a few posts saying that the HD sound formats in movies are more marketing than an actual improvement over AC3 (We cannot actually hear the difference). So since audioholics are honest when it comes to snake oil vs the truth I wanted to hear some opinions on this matter in this forum too.

For me this logic applies to 4k vs FHD in small screens (based on your example). Unless I sit too close I cant see a difference so I could argue that 4K is a gimmick which is not true of course when applied to larger screens. Since I dont have the necessary equipment though I can't test Ac3 vs HD sound with my own ears so I dont know if this logic applies in this case too..

Have you ever listened to both formats in a blind test? If yes, did you notice a difference and how significant was it?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The thing is that I read a few posts saying that the HD sound formats in movies are more marketing than an actual improvement over AC3 (We cannot actually hear the difference). So since audioholics are honest when it comes to snake oil vs the truth I wanted to hear some opinions on this matter in this forum too.

For me this logic applies to 4k vs FHD in small screens (based on your example). Unless I sit too close I cant see a difference so I could argue that 4K is a gimmick which is not true of course when applied to larger screens. Since I dont have the necessary equipment though I can't test Ac3 vs HD sound with my own ears so I dont know if this logic applies in this case too..

Have you ever listened to both formats in a blind test? If yes, did you notice a difference and how significant was it?

No, if it's the same source recording/mix, I don't think I can hear a difference.

But why LIMIT yourself to any one thing?

Is Dolby Digital (AC3) the ONLY sound format you can ever listen to?

Do you know for sure that you will NEVER EVER buy a 4K TV or Projector or NEVER EVER have the desire to watch movies with Dolby Atmos or DTSX?

As far as "honesty", it's not about honesty. It's about opinions. And there are many different opinions. I don't think anyone here is trying to deceive anyone. Everyone is just giving their opinions.

 

[Gmoney]

I want as accurate sound as possible from my system. What would you recommend for my case?

Start thinking of how you will set up your speakers in the room you'll be in. Setting up your speakers Correctly first is critical. Than Either or all Depends on which Direction you really want to go in first with your setup. You seem yo be on the Fence on which way to go with the gear. You need to postup what speaker's you have or will have. Bookshelves? Tower's? Your asking about adding tubes into a 5.1 setup some have good Results. Personally I wouldn't add tube anything. lil more info is needed, just asking what to recommend is leaving yourself wide open to a Slew of recommendations.

 

[lovinthehd]

Personally I'd not buy anything using tubes and have no issues using avrs as pre-pros if needed. I think the difference between AC3 and the lossless codecs is subtle and more about the recording/implementation itself. Also since the system is only 5.1, the 7.1/Atmos possibilities of the lossless codecs wouldn't be an advantage....but I'd tend towards just having the additional capabilities on tap especially as they're easily had.

 

[Kosta]

No, if it's the same source recording/mix, I don't think I can hear a difference.

But why LIMIT yourself to any one thing?

Is Dolby Digital (AC3) the ONLY sound format you can ever listen to?

Do you know for sure that you will NEVER EVER buy a 4K TV or Projector or NEVER EVER have the desire to watch movies with Dolby Atmos or DTX

I know for sure that I will be buying a projector with this system
What I am trying to do is build a system that will satisfy me in both music and movies while staying within a normal budget.
Like you said, since I do not know if I will be watching movies in Atmos/ Dts:x in the future, having the option won't hurt but I want to make sure I will not be compromising when it comes to music quality, if I go with the receiver, just to have an extra option that could be a gimmick.
This is my dilemma at the moment. Unfortunately I don't have the chance for a listening test with my own ears between the receiver and a dedicated pre-amp in my country due to the lack of such equipment.

 

[Kosta]

Start thinking of how you will set up your speakers in the room you'll be in. Setting up your speakers Correctly first is critical. Than Either or all Depends on which Direction you really want to go in first with your setup. You seem yo be on the Fence on which way to go with the gear. You need to postup what speaker's you have or will have. Bookshelves? Tower's? Your asking about adding tubes into a 5.1 setup some have good Results. Personally I wouldn't add tube anything. lil more info is needed, just asking what to recommend is leaving yourself wide open to a Slew of recommendations.

I will be using 2 way "bookshelf" speakers with 2 cones and a tweeter each (front speakers). To be more accurate they will be something between a floor standing and a bookshelf speakers size-wise because I will need the extra power for movies.
The surround speakers will be standard bookselves and I will also have a subwoofer.

I am not asking for a generic recommendation but one between the receiver pre amp and a dedicated pre-amp and whether there is a significant difference between the two.

 

[Kosta]

Personally I'd not buy anything using tubes and have no issues using avrs as pre-pros if needed. I think the difference between AC3 and the lossless codecs is subtle and more about the recording/implementation itself. Also since the system is only 5.1, the 7.1/Atmos possibilities of the lossless codecs wouldn't be an advantage....but I'd tend towards just having the additional capabilities on tap especially as they're easily had.

This is interesting, could you elaborate on why you avoid tubes? I have been told that when they are used in a pre amp they make a big difference. Since I haven't done any blind tests between a solid state and a tube amp though this is just a theory for me.

When it comes to Atmos/Dts:x extensions I am not sure if I will be using them in the future. At the moment I dont know if it's worth it since I ve never listened to an atmos system but if it does I wouldn't mind adding an extra 2-4 Speakers.

As long as I won't be losing quality-wise when using the receiver's preamps when it comes to music then the receiver is the logical choice.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I know for sure that I will be buying a projector with this system
What I am trying to do is build a system that will satisfy me in both music and movies while staying within a normal budget.
Like you said, since I do not know if I will be watching movies in Atmos/ Dts:x in the future, having the option won't hurt but I want to make sure I will not be compromising when it comes to music quality, if I go with the receiver, just to have an extra option that could be a gimmick.
This is my dilemma at the moment. Unfortunately I don't have the chance for a listening test with my own ears between the receiver and a dedicated pre-amp in my country due to the lack of such equipment.

Again, difference in opinions. Many of us have owned and still own separates. At one point I owned nothing but ANALOG 7.1 system - let my universal player decode everything and send PCM to my pure analog system.

But we realized that AVRs and Pre-pros and Pure Analog systems all sound equally great.

You are not giving up anything if you go with AVRs or pre-pros. On the contrast, we gained more - for some of us it is Atmos or DTSX or Auro3D, some it is auto room EQ, some it is manual Parametric EQ.

 

[Kosta]

Yeah, that makes sense! I guess I will start with the receiver which will cover pretty much all my AV needs while being more futureproof.

Thank you all for your help!

 

[2channel lover]

Yeah, that makes sense! I guess I will start with the receiver which will cover pretty much all my AV needs while being more futureproof.

Thank you all for your help!

I was going to throw in my redundant 2 cents...but I saw this post.

Smart move...I have a pre-pro and I like it, but I would have no problem at all using a AVR in prepro mode. Paying good money for old technology just didn't register as being a wise move.

 

[slipperybidness]

This is interesting, could you elaborate on why you avoid tubes? I have been told that when they are used in a pre amp they make a big difference. Since I haven't done any blind tests between a solid state and a tube amp though this is just a theory for me.

When it comes to Atmos/Dts:x extensions I am not sure if I will be using them in the future. At the moment I dont know if it's worth it since I ve never listened to an atmos system but if it does I wouldn't mind adding an extra 2-4 Speakers.

As long as I won't be losing quality-wise when using the receiver's preamps when it comes to music then the receiver is the logical choice.

Solid State electronics are superior to (obsolete tech) tubes in every possible metric!

"Making a big difference" does not equal "more accurate audio reproduction"! The big difference is the distortion introduced by the tubes. Now, tubes can indeed "sound nice", but will never be "more accurate" than a decently well designed solid state device.

Also--Don't forget that tubes are consumables! Tubes are NOT "set it and forget it", the sound will change as they age and you will have to check/adjust the bias as they age, and eventually the tubes will be at end of life and will need replacements.

On to my next point, I would be very cautious with "custom built" electronics, unless I know that person very well or if I am the person doing the custom build. And, consider the resale value and the market for custom electronics (small) as compared to off the shelf electronics (large).

 

[lovinthehd]

This is interesting, could you elaborate on why you avoid tubes? I have been told that when they are used in a pre amp they make a big difference. Since I haven't done any blind tests between a solid state and a tube amp though this is just a theory for me.

When it comes to Atmos/Dts:x extensions I am not sure if I will be using them in the future. At the moment I dont know if it's worth it since I ve never listened to an atmos system but if it does I wouldn't mind adding an extra 2-4 Speakers.

As long as I won't be losing quality-wise when using the receiver's preamps when it comes to music then the receiver is the logical choice.

A car analogy, altho flawed like most such, would be why use carburetors (tubes) when you can have fuel injection (solid state)? Tubes can have a pleasing distortion profile to some, but they simply hold no interest for me. An avr that can shut off it's amps when using just pre-outs is ideal, but even using an older avr that doesn't do that has not been an issue for me....but my listening levels and amp choices play into that some too. YMMV.

 

[Kosta]

Solid State electronics are superior to (obsolete tech) tubes in every possible metric!

"Making a big difference" does not equal "more accurate audio reproduction"! The big difference is the distortion introduced by the tubes. Now, tubes can indeed "sound nice", but will never be "more accurate" than a decently well designed solid state device.

Also--Don't forget that tubes are consumables! Tubes are NOT "set it and forget it", the sound will change as they age and you will have to check/adjust the bias as they age, and eventually the tubes will be at end of life and will need replacements.

On to my next point, I would be very cautious with "custom built" electronics, unless I know that person very well or if I am the person doing the custom build. And, consider the resale value and the market for custom electronics (small) as compared to off the shelf electronics (large).

A car analogy, altho flawed like most such, would be why use carburetors (tubes) when you can have fuel injection (solid state)? Tubes can have a pleasing distortion profile to some, but they simply hold no interest for me. An avr that can shut off it's amps when using just pre-outs is ideal, but even using an older avr that doesn't do that has not been an issue for me....but my listening levels and amp choices play into that some too. YMMV.

Oh, I see. So it's sort of like a lamp vs a laser projector. Funny thing is that I immediately discard a projector when I learn that it uses a lamp because the picture deteriorates the more you use them and they require to be replaced quite often.

I knew tubes would need replacement every 10K hours but that is a long time so I didn't mind. What I didn't know is that the sound deteriorates over time and the system needs to be adjusted. That is a no go for me.

Also I am looking for as natural sound as possible so I guess a solid state is more appropriate in my case.

I understand your concern about the re-sale value but I trust the one who is making them. He actually warned me about that before I placed the order for my speakers and offered to guide me if I wished to buy a branded system instead. I listened to many speakers though without finding something I liked but immediately felt in love with the sound of his speakers.

I guess when it comes to electronics it's difficult or impossible for an individual system builder to have access to things like truehd, atmos etc decoders or make something with as many options as a receiver.

In any case, as long as I have the receiver at hand I can test it against some of his preamps and if I hear a difference worth the extra $ I can always add a stereo preamp for music and keep the multichannel one for movies. Although from what I hear I will most likely end up sticking to the receiver.

 

[slipperybidness]

Oh, I see. So it's sort of like a lamp vs a laser projector. Funny thing is that I immediately discard a projector when I learn that it uses a lamp because the picture deteriorates the more you use them and they require to be replaced quite often.

I knew tubes would need replacement every 10K hours but that is a long time so I didn't mind. What I didn't know is that the sound deteriorates over time and the system needs to be adjusted. That is a no go for me.

Also I am looking for as natural sound as possible so I guess a solid state is more appropriate in my case.

I understand your concern about the re-sale value but I trust the one who is making them. He actually warned me about that before I placed the order for my speakers and offered to guide me if I wished to buy a branded system instead. I listened to many speakers though without finding something I liked but immediately felt in love with the sound of his speakers.

I guess when it comes to electronics it's difficult or impossible for an individual system builder to have access to things like truehd, atmos etc decoders or make something with as many options as a receiver.

In any case, as long as I have the receiver at hand I can test it against some of his preamps and if I hear a difference worth the extra $ I can always add a stereo preamp for music and keep the multichannel one for movies. Although from what I hear I will most likely end up sticking to the receiver.

Hey.....we always like to check out new gear!

Can you post some links to the company website that you have been working with?

 

[Kosta]

Hey.....we always like to check out new gear!

Can you post some links to the company website that you have been working with?

It's not a company but a retired hifi system builder who still makes speakers and electronics as a hobby.

He used to have a well known company in my country back in the day and his work was published in Hifi magazines. I am actually pretty lucky I met him!