Audyssey killing my HT sound?

L

Leemix

Audioholic General
@lovinthehd has a running joke about manufacturers doing it on purpose to make people feel good about their speakers qualifying for "large"... lol.
Ye, it does feel wrong to set really big speakers to ‘small’, i wish they would just fix it, bass management yes/no for the speakers.
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Ninja
I will add too, how you position your mic during setup makes a difference. The closer to the pattern you stay the better job it seems to do for me. I even tighten it up a little bit. I follow the pattern with a little less distance in between mic positions than 2 feet, ~18" to 20", ear height, and I use all 8 measurements.
In my room I get the best response when the mic positions are at most 30 cm from the first mic position.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
In my room I get the best response when the mic positions are at most 30 cm from the first mic position.
That's even tighter than I do, but I'll bet it works really well for mlp.
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Ninja
That's even tighter than I do, but I'll bet it works really well for mlp.
It works well outside of MLP as well, while much wider positions not so much. I also have positions below and above MLP but fairly close.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
It works well outside of MLP as well, while much wider positions not so much. I also have positions below and above MLP but fairly close.
Yeah, you use a Trinnov setup right? That's like Audyssey on steroids, lol.

I would really like to check out some Genelec gear. Everything I've seen about it is pretty stellar.
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Ninja
Yeah, you use a Trinnov setup right? That's like Audyssey on steroids, lol.

I would really like to check out some Genelec gear. Everything I've seen about it is pretty stellar.
I'm not sure what you mean by a Trinnov setup, but Trinnov is too expensive for me to buy, if that's what you mean.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
I'm not sure what you mean by a Trinnov setup, but Trinnov is too expensive for me to buy, if that's what you mean.
I must have you confused with someone else. I thought you had Trinnov gear for some reason.
 
Auditor55

Auditor55

Audioholic General
No, Audyssey doesn't suck the bass out. Read up on it and why personal preferences and hearing capabilities mean people want more bass after a calibration that level matches a system.
It's probably, due to movie watching and/or home theater content, they like hot bass. They want the room shaking, the walls vibrating, and cups falling on the floor after a big explosion in a movie.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Please do a fact check on this (about FIR filters) before posting, keep in mind that coming from you, lots of forum members may take it as facts.;)
A FIR filter only has linear phase if it has symmetrical coefficients. However there is still group delay, which you can see in the impulse response. This is analogous to fourth order crossovers in speakers. Sure they are linear phase, but the group delay is a whole cycle at the specified frequency. You can easily see that when you measure the impulse response.

Even of a FIR filter is a linear response filter group delay is still 1 cycle per tap. So the risk for significant time smear as processing is added is high.

In addition a you add circuits to the mix you inevitable add noise.

You can hear that easily on my rig. No Audyssey, then very slight noise just audible in a very quiet room at the seated position. Engage Audyssey and noise is easily discernible.

I suppose my case may not be typical, as the whole system measures really well, especially at the MLP. So the only thing that Audyssey could do is muck it up. However I remain astonished at how much it really mucks it up.

I guess I have to be grateful that turning it on is totally redundant.
 
Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Ninja
A FIR filter only has linear phase if it has symmetrical coefficients. However there is still group delay, which you can see in the impulse response. This is analogous to fourth order crossovers in speakers. Sure they are linear phase, but the group delay is a whole cycle at the specified frequency. You can easily see that when you measure the impulse response.

Even of a FIR filter is a linear response filter group delay is still 1 cycle per tap. So the risk for significant time smear as processing is added is high.

In addition a you add circuits to the mix you inevitable add noise.

You can hear that easily on my rig. No Audyssey, then very slight noise just audible in a very quiet room at the seated position. Engage Audyssey and noise is easily discernible.

I suppose my case may not be typical, as the whole system measures really well, especially at the MLP. So the only thing that Audyssey could do is muck it up. However I remain astonished at how much it really mucks it up.

I guess I have to be grateful that turning it on is totally redundant.
Taken from Floyd Toole's book entitled "Sound Reproduction 3rd Edition" :

"Many investigators over many years attempted to determine whether phase shift mattered to sound quality. In every case it has been shown that, if it is audible, it is a subtle effect, most easily heard through headphones or in an anechoic chamber, using carefully chosen or contrived signals.

There is quite general agreement that with music, reproduced through loudspeakers in normally reflective rooms, phase shift is substantially or completely inaudible. When it has been audible as a difference, when it is switched in and out, it is not clear that listeners had a preference.

Others looked at the audibility of group delay. They found that the detection threshold is in the range of 1.6 to 2 ms, and more in reflective spaces.These numbers are not exceeded by normal domestic and monitor loudspeakers.

Lipschitz et al. (1982) conclude: “All of the effects described can reasonably be classified as subtle. We are not, in our present state of knowledge, advocating that phase linear transducers are a requirement for high-quality sound reproduction.” Greenfield and Hawksford (1990) observe that phase effects in rooms are “very subtle effects indeed,” and seem mostly to be spatial rather than timbral. As to whether phase corrections are needed, without a phase correct recording process, any listener opinions are of personal preference, not the recognition of “accurate” reproduction."

IMO, phase shift at low frequencies is another matter. Multiple loudspeaker drivers in the same cabinet have to be positioned to allow a coherent phase response.
 
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H

HT4Life

Audioholic Intern
My Denon x4300 lost contact with its hdmi board, so i reset the unit. I have used Audyssey since my first denon. I decided to give non-audyssey a listen……so far i like it, my subs now go down to 10hz a flutter ur pant legs.

i liked dynamic eq, i thought….
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
My Denon x4300 lost contact with its hdmi board, so i reset the unit. I have used Audyssey since my first denon. I decided to give non-audyssey a listen……so far i like it, my subs now go down to 10hz a flutter ur pant legs.

i liked dynamic eq, i thought….
The X4300H did make it to the App compatible list so before you give up on Audyssey, I suggest you spent $20 and give the MultEQ Editor App a chance. You will be amazed with the results simply by doing the following basic things with the App:

- Disable MRC
- Limit the EQ ranges to below 1 kHz
- Customize the target curve for the sub channel(s) by tilting it like the so called Harman Curve.

Audyssey Room EQ Review | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

1639402043804.png


Audyssey can EQ down to 10 Hz but we can't really hear frequencies that low, and I know you know that already.:)
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Ninja
The X4300H did make it to the App compatible list so before you give up on Audyssey, I suggest you spent $20 and give the MultEQ Editor App a chance. You will be amazed with the results simply by doing the following basic things with the App:

- Disable MRC
- Limit the EQ ranges to below 1 kHz
- Customize the target curve for the sub channel(s) by tilting it like the so called Harman Curve.

Audyssey Room EQ Review | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

View attachment 52267

Audyssey can EQ down to 10 Hz but we can't really hear frequencies that low, and I know you know that already.:)
I wish my 2015 model Denon AVR-X4200W had this app. :(

Now that Audyssey plans to release a PC app where you can use your own (hopefully) measurement mic could be an incentive to think about upgrading my receiver.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I wish my 2015 model Denon AVR-X4200W had this app. :(

Now that Audyssey plans to release a PC app where you can use your own (hopefully) measurement mic could be an incentive to think about upgrading my receiver.
Without the App, you an still get the bass back by increasing the sub level for a few dB. There would still be an issue of the elevated high but I don't think it is an issue for people with some hearing loss in the HF unless you use the Flat curve.

Below is one plotted right after a run, without any tweaking with anything, no app.. You can see the loss of bass due to room gain in the 70-130 Hz range, and that could be what people complained about, the "thin sound". With the App you can get it back, without, you can bump up the levels though won't be as smooth.

1639407132638.jpeg
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Ninja
Without the App, you an still get the bass back by increasing the sub level for a few dB. There would still be an issue of the elevated high but I don't think it is an issue for people with some hearing loss in the HF unless you use the Flat curve.

Below is one plotted right after a run, without any tweaking with anything, no app.. You can see the loss of bass due to room gain in the 70-130 Hz range, and that could be what people complained about, the "thin sound". With the App you can get it back, without, you can bump up the levels though won't be as smooth.

View attachment 52272
My living room along with the placement of speakers as well as subwoofers is not optimal, sad to say, but being able to disable the MRC dip and limit the EQ range would be very nice to try out.

Currently I've used REW along with PEQ on my dual SVS SB-3000 subwoofers to try fix some issues in my living room by applying the PEQ after Audyssey, including changing the crossover, to make it flat without DEQ enabled. More easily said than done, I'm afraid, with limited available placement. This was a major reason to add room treatment, while nice, is not a complete solution.
 
Teetertotter?

Teetertotter?

Full Audioholic
Crossovers made a difference for me. I reverted back to the original individual Audssey calibrations, but adjusted the Crossover on the Sub to 90HZ. The frequency response for the mains and SR's are much the same by design. Because I don't like a whole lot of base, I also have the gain turned down. I'm not into music, put play internet mp3 every so often. My 2020, Denon has little customization as the previous 2015 model. My hearing is not that acute as some, but my HT DD movie sound is fabulous, using Audssey with current room conditions.
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Ninja
Crossovers made a difference for me. I reverted back to the original individual Audssey calibrations, but adjusted the Crossover on the Sub to 90HZ. The frequency response for the mains and SR's are much the same by design. Because I don't like a whole lot of base, I also have the gain turned down. I'm not into music, put play internet mp3 every so often. My 2020, Denon has little customization as the previous 2015 model. My hearing is not that acute as some, but my HT DD movie sound is fabulous, using Audssey with current room conditions.
I'm not sure I follow you here as the LPF for the subwoofer(s) is not changed by Audyssey as a result of the calibration and should be left alone at 120Hz.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
This is what I have to start with, no room correction or anything.

FL-FR + Subs Crossover Overlay-1.jpg


That's pretty bad, by any standard, lol. However this is where Audyssey got me with no additional tweaking.

06-22-20 multeq only-1.jpg


That's a huge improvement, but it did leave my bass sounding a little thin, I think due to that dip between about 40 and 90 hz.

This is where REW and a calibrated mic becomes very useful. Once I could see what I was hearing (or not hearing in this case) it was pretty easy for me to use the app to finish tweaking it so I have a more even, linear response.

06-22-20 final fr-1.jpg


No more weak bass! Without some way to measure what was going on tho, it's just a crap shoot or guessing and our ears just aren't sensitive enough to zero in on exactly what might be resulting less than desired performance. Based on my experience Audyssey did seem to neuter my bass so it's totally believable. However it wasn't as bad as I thought and was pretty easy to fix with the right data.
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Ninja
This is what I have to start with, no room correction or anything.

View attachment 52278

That's pretty bad, by any standard, lol. However this is where Audyssey got me with no additional tweaking.

View attachment 52277

That's a huge improvement, but it did leave my bass sounding a little thin, I think due to that dip between about 40 and 90 hz.

This is where REW and a calibrated mic becomes very useful. Once I could see what I was hearing (or not hearing in this case) it was pretty easy for me to use the app to finish tweaking it so I have a more even, linear response.

View attachment 52276

No more weak bass! Without some way to measure what was going on tho, it's just a crap shoot or guessing and our ears just aren't sensitive enough to zero in on exactly what might be resulting less than desired performance. Based on my experience Audyssey did seem to neuter my bass so it's totally believable. However it wasn't as bad as I thought and was pretty easy to fix with the right data.
How is the fr when you play L+R with Audyssey enabled? I’ve got quite a bit of cancellation from midbass and down.
 

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